HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Pacific Division > Edmonton Oilers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

I doubt we see a rebuild

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
01-03-2010, 11:43 AM
  #1
Phaedrus
Registered User
 
Phaedrus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,674
vCash: 500
I doubt we see a rebuild

The idea that 'we' are going to enter a rebuild seems a fairly common conclusion around these parts; but, if Tambellini can shed some of the albatross contracts, I am more inclined to believe that we will see further retooling. I am with those (and this is not a judgment call by any means) who believe that the Oilers - as an organization - will not enter into a complete rebuild - needed or not; I think they are far more likely to retool ('our' history, things Katz and Lowe have said in the past, etc., etc., all lead me to believe that a rebuild is not in the books - Katz still wants his big fish). Bad contracts out, better contracts in, and an offer or two for a high caliber player - that is how I see the rest of the season and the off-season progressing.

Expect Tambellowe to make an offer for/to Kovalchuk if he should become available. Expect at least some of those players mentioned recently as being on the block to be moved - especially a big contract or two, and hopefully we will see a new kid-line next year - MPS-Hall-Eberle; granted, if they retool before season's end, I don't expect to see a top five pick (unless trading Souray or someone brings 'us' one).

p.s. And the new kid-line is really just wishful thinking on my behalf; the likelihood of it is slim.

Phaedrus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-03-2010, 11:48 AM
  #2
dawgbone
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 21,104
vCash: 500
Send a message via ICQ to dawgbone Send a message via MSN to dawgbone
I think rebuild needs to be defined.

If you change over 10-15 players over a 2 year span, that's a rebuild in my mind. You don't need to tank for 6 years to rebuild your team.

You can do it over a season or two providing you've got good young players coming up through your system and you find value contracts during free agency.

__________________
TheSpecialist - MacT thinks he was that good of a hockey player when in actuality he was no better then a Louie Debrusk.
dawgbone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-03-2010, 11:49 AM
  #3
Petro Points
Registered User
 
Petro Points's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 14,343
vCash: 885
mehh nothing wrong with a retool..

some health and Dmen who can actually play D and we;ll be back in business

Petro Points is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-03-2010, 11:58 AM
  #4
GSC
Registered User
 
GSC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Basement
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,308
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgbone View Post
I think rebuild needs to be defined.

If you change over 10-15 players over a 2 year span, that's a rebuild in my mind. You don't need to tank for 6 years to rebuild your team.

You can do it over a season or two providing you've got good young players coming up through your system and you find value contracts during free agency.
Agreed...but the Oilers continue to fail miserably when it comes to this very concept.

Until they stop chasing big fish in free agency and pretending that injuries are the sole culprit for another losing season, we'll continue to see more of the same crap.

GSC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-03-2010, 11:59 AM
  #5
MDupont
 
MDupont's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 652
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgbone View Post
I think rebuild needs to be defined.

If you change over 10-15 players over a 2 year span, that's a rebuild in my mind. You don't need to tank for 6 years to rebuild your team.

You can do it over a season or two providing you've got good young players coming up through your system and you find value contracts during free agency.
Finding value contracts is easier said than done, but I agree with your post in general. We all know we need more size, getting rid of guys like O'Sullivan would be a good start. I think Cogs needs to go also. I would keep Nilsson personally just because there is something about the guy that I like. Probably his all world skill that has been on display recently. Give up a couple guys like I mentioned and we could get back some defensive help. I am sure Quinn knows who is staying and who is going. The rest of the season will weed out the rest of the wannabe's.

MDupont is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-03-2010, 12:01 PM
  #6
GSC
Registered User
 
GSC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Basement
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,308
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MDupont View Post
Finding value contracts is easier said than done, but I agree with your post in general. We all know we need more size, getting rid of guys like O'Sullivan would be a good start. I think Cogs needs to go also. I would keep Nilsson personally just because there is something about the guy that I like. Probably his all world skill that has been on display recently. Give up a couple guys like I mentioned and we could get back some defensive help. I am sure Quinn knows who is staying and who is going. The rest of the season will weed out the rest of the wannabe's.
I wish I still had the list I compiled of the value contracts (not including entry level deals) from each team. I went through each club and looked at contracts under $3 MIL that provided great bang-for-buck. I remember specifically that every team had at least 2 players, even the Oilers (Brule, Comrie, and Smid were my value players...and this is before Nilsson picked up his play). I would argue, then, that it's actually easier to find value than many believe.

GSC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-03-2010, 12:06 PM
  #7
MDupont
 
MDupont's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 652
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by A Vandelay View Post
I wish I still had the list I compiled of the value contracts (not including entry level deals) from each team. I went through each club and looked at contracts under $3 MIL that provided great bang-for-buck. I remember specifically that every team had at least 2 players, even the Oilers (Brule, Comrie, and Smid were my value players...and this is before Nilsson picked up his play). I would argue, then, that it's actually easier to find value than many believe.
Interesting, would like to see your list, not doubting you at all, just curious. Wonder how many teams have more value contracts than bad contracts? Brule and Smid are awesome deals I agree.

MDupont is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-03-2010, 12:12 PM
  #8
tiger_80
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 5,533
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by PenzOil View Post
mehh nothing wrong with a retool..

some health and Dmen who can actually play D and we;ll be back in business
The Oilers need a shutdown d-man, a 1st line center or scoring LW, preferably with size.

They also need a real checking line.

A competitive line-up would look something like this.

Visnovsky-Smid
Grebeshkov-Hamhuis/Volchenkov
Staios-Souray

(Gilbert out)

Penner-Horcoff-Hemsky
Brule-J.Carter-Eberle
Laperriere-Malhotra-Pisani (re-signed on the cheap if healthy)
JFJ-Stone/O'Marra-Stortini

(out O'Sullivan, Nilsson, Moreau, Gagner, Cogliano, Comrie).

Having said that, I don't believe they can assemble anything of the sort.

tiger_80 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-03-2010, 12:18 PM
  #9
dawgbone
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 21,104
vCash: 500
Send a message via ICQ to dawgbone Send a message via MSN to dawgbone
Quote:
Originally Posted by MDupont View Post
Finding value contracts is easier said than done, but I agree with your post in general. We all know we need more size, getting rid of guys like O'Sullivan would be a good start. I think Cogs needs to go also. I would keep Nilsson personally just because there is something about the guy that I like. Probably his all world skill that has been on display recently. Give up a couple guys like I mentioned and we could get back some defensive help. I am sure Quinn knows who is staying and who is going. The rest of the season will weed out the rest of the wannabe's.
It's actually quite easy.

There's a list of players every year who go into late July / early August unsigned and looking for a team, often times these are decent NHL players who would fit on anyone's 3rd or 4th line, and in some cases 2nd line.

I'm not even talking about really good players who make just under $3mil... I'm even talking about 2 players who both make $500k and picking the better player. That can be a huge upgrade.

dawgbone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-03-2010, 12:21 PM
  #10
MDupont
 
MDupont's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 652
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgbone View Post
It's actually quite easy.

There's a list of players every year who go into late July / early August unsigned and looking for a team, often times these are decent NHL players who would fit on anyone's 3rd or 4th line, and in some cases 2nd line.

I'm not even talking about really good players who make just under $3mil... I'm even talking about 2 players who both make $500k and picking the better player. That can be a huge upgrade.
yeah true, never thought of that. You mean like Malhotra and Betts this last off season.

MDupont is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-03-2010, 12:39 PM
  #11
GDU
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,375
vCash: 500
i disagree and here's why...

they have no choice, the team is basically forcing them into a top three pick this year and that can't be ignored, why focus the team around signing free agents or retooling players when the team has granted us a chance a real superstar... the team won't be fishing for free agents anymore because when/if we get hall/seguin the idea will be to build around him and that means rebuilding because they are so young.

so expect selling contracts and freeing cap space and probably trying to land some young players as well, but i don't see a simple retooling, the team is headed in a different direction, whether management wants it to or not...

GDU is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-03-2010, 12:50 PM
  #12
Beerfish
Registered User
 
Beerfish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 10,793
vCash: 500
If they don't then:

Lowe = Tool
Tambellini = Re-tool

Beerfish is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-03-2010, 12:50 PM
  #13
dawgbone
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 21,104
vCash: 500
Send a message via ICQ to dawgbone Send a message via MSN to dawgbone
Quote:
Originally Posted by MDupont View Post
yeah true, never thought of that. You mean like Malhotra and Betts this last off season.
Yes.

Not like it's the difference this year, but who brings more things this Oiler team needs, JFJ or Betts? Doing it once doesn't make much of a difference... but when you get 4 or 5 players deep it does.

dawgbone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-03-2010, 12:51 PM
  #14
tiger_80
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 5,533
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MDupont View Post
yeah true, never thought of that. You mean like Malhotra and Betts this last off season.
Yeh. Oilers did it with Comrie. It did not work because he got sick, but for 1.25M, Comrie was a good signing. Much better than O'Sullivan at 3M.

I think we will see more signings like these in the future. As many pointed out, the salary cap re-distributed money in favor of younger star players (Ovechkins and Seabrooks of the league), as everybody has been trying to lock their star power long-term.

It's people like Betts, Malhotra, Satan and Comrie who drew a short match.

Too bad K.Lowe had already handcuffed the team with bad contracts, some of which could easily be replaced with players making close to a league minimum.

E.g. J. McKee in Pitts (800K). Is there any difference between him and Staios?
or between Moreau and S.Yelle (500k or whatever)? That's why guys like Staios and Moreau will retire Oilers. Not because they are horrible, but because similar players can be had at a quarter of their cap hit.

tiger_80 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-03-2010, 12:55 PM
  #15
dawgbone
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 21,104
vCash: 500
Send a message via ICQ to dawgbone Send a message via MSN to dawgbone
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiger_80 View Post
Yeh. Oilers did it with Comrie. It did not work because he got sick, but for 1.25M, Comrie was a good signing. Much better than O'Sullivan at 3M.

I think we will see more signings like these in the future. As many pointed out, the salary cap re-distributed money in favor of younger star players (Ovechkins and Seabrooks of the league), as everybody has been trying to lock their star power long-term.

It's people like Betts, Malhotra, Satan and Comrie who drew a short match.

Too bad K.Lowe had already handcuffed the team with bad contracts, some of which could easily be replaced with players making close to a league minimum.

E.g. J. McKee in Pitts (800K). Is there any difference between him and Staios?
or between Moreau and S.Yelle (500k or whatever)? That's why guys like Staios and Moreau will retire Oilers. Not because they are horrible, but because similar players can be had at a quarter of their cap hit.
The problem is, they signed Comrie and kept O'Sullivan.

The idea is to replace and get the value.

Though in fairness, it was pretty tough to know much about O'Sullivan this offseason.

dawgbone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-03-2010, 01:31 PM
  #16
Hemsky4PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Billeting Ales
Posts: 6,566
vCash: 500
Easiest way to ensure a true rebuilding/retooling season next year:

Katz should set the payroll at 48-50M, not the 59M currently being spent on a last place team.

That will at least prevent any foolish spending in the off-season and will ensure that Staios, Moreau and one of the 3+M offensive d-men is moved along. I think it would also ensure one of O'Sullivan or Nilsson is traded.

It will also mean Gagner and Brule won't get massive raises. They should get 1 or 2 year deals based on their performances this year and not based on "potential". That means no more than 2M for either player.

In two years Hemsky and Penner are up for contracts. Both have shown they are good players, legit top 6 forwards and worth keeping. MPS, Eberle and maybe Hall would be up for deals the following season.

Hemsky4PM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-03-2010, 02:10 PM
  #17
jumptheshark
Give the dog a bone
 
jumptheshark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: hf retirement home
Country: United Nations
Posts: 52,587
vCash: 1850
A rebuild wont happen due to how much time is left on the big contracts

__________________
not sure how--but the fish just jumped in the boat and put the hook in it's mouth
52299/14814
The twenty year rebuild is on!!! Embrace the suck
jumptheshark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-03-2010, 02:24 PM
  #18
The Human Torch
Registered User
 
The Human Torch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Amsterdam
Country: Netherlands
Posts: 5,116
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to The Human Torch
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiger_80 View Post
Yeh. Oilers did it with Comrie. It did not work because he got sick, but for 1.25M, Comrie was a good signing. Much better than O'Sullivan at 3M.
By a cost measurement, Comrie was an excellent signing.

By a "value to the team" measurement, Comrie was a terrible signing because he didn't fill any of the needs that our team had other than management's vapid desire to kiss the ass of another rich ex-Edmontonian.

The Human Torch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-03-2010, 02:44 PM
  #19
GSC
Registered User
 
GSC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Basement
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,308
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MDupont View Post
Interesting, would like to see your list, not doubting you at all, just curious. Wonder how many teams have more value contracts than bad contracts? Brule and Smid are awesome deals I agree.
Let's give 'er a go. The following is a list of players I have defined as "value contracts" in the NHL. The cut-off is $3 MIL, although I allowed for a $100K margin of error. Beyond salary, I considered age and production as factors for bang-for-buck players. Again, this excludes entry level contracts. This list is entirely my opinion and is definitely open to suggestion (source: nhlnumbers.com):

ANAHEIM: Todd Marchant, James Wisniewski, Steve Eminger, Evgeny Artyukhin, Jonas Hiller
ATLANTA: Rich Peverley, Marty Reasoner, Maxim Afinogenov, Johan Hedberg
BOSTON: Steve Begin, Mark Recchi, Daniel Paille, Andrew Ference,
BUFFALO: Paul Gaustad, Mike Grier, Steve Montador, Henrik Tallinder, Toni Lydman
CAROLINA: Erik Cole, Matt Cullen, Jussi Jokinen, Stephane Yelle
CALGARY: Rene Bourque, Curtis Glencross, David Moss, Nigel Dawes, Fredrik Sjostrom, Mark Giordano
CHICAGO: John Madden, Ben Eager, Brent Sopel, Cam Barker
COLORADO: Wojtek Wolski, Cody McLeod, Marek Svatos, Craig Anderson
COLUMBUS: Sami Pahlsson, Raffi Torres, Jan Hejda, Fedor Tyutin, Mathieu Garon
DALLAS: Jere Lehtinen, Steve Ott, Brian Sutherby, Trevor Daley, Alex Auld
DETROIT: Valtteri Filppula, Dan Cleary, Tomas Holmstrom, Todd Bertuzzi, Kris Draper, Patrick Eaves, Niklas Kronwall, Jonathan Ericsson, Jimmy Howard
EDMONTON: Mike Comrie, Gilbert Brule, Ryan Potulny, Ladislav Smid, Jeff Deslauriers
FLORIDA: Stephen Weiss, Steve Reinprecht, Dominic Moore, Radek Dvorak, Dennis Seidenberg
LOS ANGELES: Alexander Frolov, Matt Greene, Sean O'Donnell, Randy Jones, Davis Drewiske, Jonathan Quick
MINNESOTA: Owen Nolan, Andrew Brunette, Antti Miettinen, Eric Belanger, Greg Zanon
MONTREAL: Tomas Plekanec, Travis Moen, Glen Metropolit, Josh Gorges, Marc-Andre Bergeron, Jaroslav Halak
NASHVILLE: Joel Ward, Marcel Goc, Dan Hamhuis, Pekka Rinne, Dan Ellis
NEW JERSEY: Jamie Langenbrunner, Rob Niedermayer, David Clarkson, Dean McAmmond, Bryce Salvador, Colin White, Andy Greene, Mike Mottau, Yann Danis
NY ISLANDERS: Trent Hunter, Matt Moulson, Radek Martinek, Dwayne Roloson
NY RANGERS: Vinny Prospal, Sean Avery, Brandon Dubinsky
OTTAWA: Chris Kelly, Jarkko Ruutu, Anton Volchenkov, Alexandre Picard, Chris Campoli, Brian Elliott
PHILADELPHIA: Blair Betts, Braydon Coburn, Ray Emery
PHOENIX: Matthew Lombardi, Radim Vrbata, Scottie Upshall, Vernon Fiddler, Robert Lang, Taylor Pyatt, Jim Vandermeer, Adrian Aucoin, Kurt Sauer, Keith Yandle, Jason LaBarbera
PITTSBURGH: Bill Guerin, Pascal DuPuis, Matt Cooke, Michael Rupp, Alex Goligoski, Mark Eaton, Jay McKee
SAN JOSE: Joe Pavelski, Manny Malhotra, Marc-Edouard Vlasic, Kent Huskins, Douglas Murray
ST. LOUIS: Keith Tkachuk, Carlo Colaiacovo, David Backes, Roman Polak, Ty Conklin
TAMPA BAY: Alex Tanguay, Steve Downie, Kurtis Foster, Matt Walker, Antero Niittymaki
TORONTO: Mikhail Grabovski, Alexei Ponikarovsky, Matt Stajan, Ian White, Jonas Gustavsson
VANCOUVER: Alexandre Burrows, Mikael Samuelsson, Ryan Kesler, Ryan Johnson, Christian Ehrhoff, Andrew Raycroft
WASHINGTON: Brooks Laich, Brendan Morrison, David Steckel, Jason Chimera, Matt Bradley, Brian Pothier

I excluded Robert Nilsson only because I'm not sure that he's finally got his act together. I think this demonstrates that bang-for-buck/value contracts are not needles in a haystack.


Last edited by GSC: 01-03-2010 at 02:57 PM.
GSC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-03-2010, 03:36 PM
  #20
Oilbender
Registered User
 
Oilbender's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,829
vCash: 500
Cap era has defined a merry go round for the stanley cup. If the owners aren't total idiots. We'll see new teams rising and falling all the time.

Oilbender is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-03-2010, 04:21 PM
  #21
guymez
The Seldom Seen Kid
 
guymez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Calgary
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,761
vCash: 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Human Torch View Post
By a cost measurement, Comrie was an excellent signing.

By a "value to the team" measurement, Comrie was a terrible signing because he didn't fill any of the needs that our team
had other than management's vapid desire to kiss the ass of another rich ex-Edmontonian.
I agree entirely with the bolded part.
I suspect the part I didn't bold has some truth to it as well but thats pure speculation on my part. I can think of no other reason why they would sign a player with Comries skillset when it is duplicated throughout the roster.

guymez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-03-2010, 04:39 PM
  #22
Tavaresmagicalplay*
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 19,306
vCash: 500
I don't understand the difference to be honest. If we get the number 1 pick I don't care anyways. MPS, Eberle and Hall added to Gagner, Grebeshkov and Gilbert is enough of a young core. Get a goalie, make some good moves and get moving. My patience has run out. 3 top 10 picks and another one that should've been top 5 if we had not signed penner. It's time to start winning.

Tavaresmagicalplay* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-03-2010, 04:40 PM
  #23
Lounge Act*
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Country:
Posts: 4,282
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaedrus View Post
Expect Tambellowe to make an offer for/to Kovalchuk if he should become available.
And after he turns the Oilers down watch them get desperate and embarrass this city once again with a DVD of Edmonton and Lowe covering Back In The USSR. Klown will say "Aw shucks, we tried, we ALMOST had him!"

If this isn't a rebuild I don't know what is. If they have plans on making a run for it down the stretch there is no hope for this franchise.

Lounge Act* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-03-2010, 05:35 PM
  #24
nullterm
Registered User
 
nullterm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Port Moody, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,541
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lounge Act View Post
And after he turns the Oilers down watch them get desperate and embarrass this city once again with a DVD of Edmonton and Lowe covering Back In The USSR. Klown will say "Aw shucks, we tried, we ALMOST had him!"

If this isn't a rebuild I don't know what is. If they have plans on making a run for it down the stretch there is no hope for this franchise.
I'd MUCH rather see the Oilers not chase a superstar for months, if he signs in a day or two, great. But if it's gonna take months of courting, skip it. The team needs to focus on fixing the overall picture, rosters in the NHL, AHL, ECHL, scouting, etc. Adding a star should be on hold until that is taken care of and the player foundation is more solid.

nullterm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-03-2010, 05:46 PM
  #25
Soundwave
Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 24,192
vCash: 500
Why does the management have to do anything to start a "rebuild"?

Seems to me, whether or not they like it or not, they are in a rebuild now. How is this anything but?

Signing an injury prone goalie basically guarantees it now.

at trying to sign Kovalchuk. I'm sure he'll giggle like a school girl when he realizes it's the Oilers on the other end.

Tampa Bay still have Lecavalier and St. Louis and they've tanked for a couple of seasons, and even continued to add salary (Malone) and still got Hedman. You don't have to sell the farm to rebuild. You just have to have a team with lots of holes up front, porous defense, and questionable goaltending ... and the Oilers already have that in spades.


Last edited by Soundwave: 01-03-2010 at 05:57 PM.
Soundwave is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:05 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.