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Old
01-05-2010, 11:13 AM
  #1
Jame
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Two Birds Four Stones

I have yet again, intrigued myself with a totally ridiculous Trade Hypothetical...

Stafford(1.9), Sekera(1.0), Ennis, 1st
for
Kaberle(4.25), Stajan(1.75)
= addition of 3.1 in cap space... which I believe we can manage.

Reasoning
1. We upgrade our two weaknesses. We get a super elite all star PP QB. He would IMMEDIATELY make us a much different and more successful offensive team at ES and on the PP. Kaberle also essentially upgrades our top 6 without changing the personnel in it much.
2. We get the center depth we desperately need. Ruff is constantly having to compensate for Connolly on faceoffs. Stajan is a very good faceoff guy(13th in league in faceoffs taken), and adds some size to the top 6 at 6'1 200 lbs.
3. We lose FOUR very valuable assets.... HOWEVER, Stafford and Sekera aren't producing this season, but they could break out next year and be due BIG contracts by that time. The Sabres have a lot tied up in their big guys, and have other more important players they will need to re-sign in the coming seasons.
4. It keeps the core together while supplanting it with the missing ingredients and moving out young assets.
5. Conceivably makes us a contender now, while creating the salary and cap space to make BIG changes 2-3 years from now.
6. Toronto gets FOUR young assets that they can control for a long time. They may not get the super prospect or HIGH first rounder, but they get a lot of depth and talent.
7. The Sabres are in 2nd place. NONE of the players traded have been an integral part of the team's success. We aren't losing ANY major pieces of the team's success. It's tough to look at those 4 assets and not see it as a major overpayment. But when its taken in context its a win

Hecht-Roy-Pominville
Vanek-Stajan-Connolly
Macarthur-Kennedy-Grier
Ellis-Goose-Kaleta
x Mair
Tallinder-Myers
Kaberle-Rivet
Lydman-Montador
x Butler

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Old
01-05-2010, 11:19 AM
  #2
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pass....

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Old
01-05-2010, 11:27 AM
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I'd do it in a heartbeat even though I'm a huge fan of Tyler Ennis, but I don't think that the Leafs would.

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01-05-2010, 11:32 AM
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Meh. My only issue in the trade is Ennis, I'm really high on the kid.

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01-05-2010, 11:33 AM
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if thats the cost, i'd rather target Pitkanen/Cullen in Carolina.

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Old
01-05-2010, 11:35 AM
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GrierIsGod123
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Terrible proposal, but very typical of the OP.

Ennis is a top notch prospect that has the makings of being our most dynamic offensive player in a few years. I wouldn't trade him alone for Stajan. I'd rather look for a deal based strictly around Stafford and not involve our best offensive prospect in an organization with very little center depth.

I think Stafford, Sekera and a 2nd (a 1st if necessary) would work for Kaberle...I just don't think Stajan is what we're looking for in our top 6, while Ennis is.

At the same time, we could target a lesser PP QB and not have to overpay because the other team is in our division. I'd rather Regier go this route and get a guy like Zidlicky or Liles. We could probably get Zidlicky for a 2nd and mid-level prospect or Sekera.

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Old
01-05-2010, 11:36 AM
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
Stafford(1.9), Sekera(1.0), Ennis, 1st
for
Kaberle(4.25), Stajan(1.75)
= addition of 3.1 in cap space... which I believe we can manage.
How about just:

Butler/Sekera, Ennis, 1st
for
Kaberle
?

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Old
01-05-2010, 11:40 AM
  #8
Jame
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrierIsGod123 View Post
Terrible proposal, but very typical of the OP.

Ennis is a top notch prospect that has the makings of being our most dynamic offensive player in a few years. I wouldn't trade him alone for Stajan. I'd rather look for a deal based strictly around Stafford and not involve our best offensive prospect in an organization with very little center depth.

I think Stafford, Sekera and a 2nd (a 1st if necessary) would work for Kaberle...I just don't think Stajan is what we're looking for in our top 6, while Ennis is.

At the same time, we could target a lesser PP QB and not have to overpay because the other team is in our division. I'd rather Regier go this route and get a guy like Zidlicky or Liles. We could probably get Zidlicky for a 2nd and mid-level prospect or Sekera.
We could target a "lesser" PP QB rental. And Zidlicky would be at the top of the list.

OR

We could get the best PP QB in the NHL and immensely improve our team and cup hopes.

We could go the usual route. make cheap rentals and try and compete...

OR

For once we could trade valuable young assets and make a serious run at a cup.

How many top notch prospects are there? Because Ennis is one of OUR top prospects, but league wide... He may not even be in the top 50

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Old
01-05-2010, 11:43 AM
  #9
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No way I'm trading Ennis especially for what we'd be getting in return.

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01-05-2010, 11:47 AM
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That's quite a cost for a rental.

This team isn't exactly old. Miller's locked up, Myers is only going to get better, there's solid prospects in the pipeline...

No thanks.

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Old
01-05-2010, 11:47 AM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
We could target a "lesser" PP QB rental. And Zidlicky would be at the top of the list.

OR

We could get the best PP QB in the NHL and immensely improve our team and cup hopes.

We could go the usual route. make cheap rentals and try and compete...

OR

For once we could trade valuable young assets and make a serious run at a cup.

How many top notch prospects are there? Because Ennis is one of OUR top prospects, but league wide... He may not even be in the top 50
I would be for adding Kaberle but no thanks about Stajan. I'd rather make a trade for just Kaberle as I don't see what Matt Stajan will really do to help make us a contender. He's not worth giving up Ennis to get.

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Old
01-05-2010, 11:47 AM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADoubleD View Post
No way I'm trading Ennis especially for what we'd be getting in return.
ask yourself these two questions...

1. Would you trade those 4 assets for a spot in the Stanley Cup Finals?
2. Would the trade I proposed make the Sabres BETTER right NOW?


Yes, its an overpayment...BUT... it could be the RIGHT overpayment.

Of course on HF Prospects, picks, and slowly developing young players are more valuable then the tools needed to win a cup...

think about it again...

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01-05-2010, 11:49 AM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADoubleD View Post
I would be for adding Kaberle not sure about Stajan, but I'd rather make a trade for just Kaberle as I don't see what Matt Stajan will really do to help make us a contender. I'd rather not give up Ennis for him or anyone unless it's a significant upgrade.
taking Stajan out doesn't change the trade much... at that point you can remove the Sabres 1st.

Stajan value in the trade is LU depth, top 6 flexibility, faceoff prowess, size, Connolly insurance.... theres a lot of value. Not to mention he is scoring more then Stafford.

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01-05-2010, 11:50 AM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jflory81 View Post
That's quite a cost for a rental.

This team isn't exactly old. Miller's locked up, Myers is only going to get better, there's solid prospects in the pipeline...

No thanks.
Kaberle is signed this year and NEXT.

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Old
01-05-2010, 11:50 AM
  #15
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Im quite surprised at the lack of interest.

Seems very homer/blind

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Old
01-05-2010, 11:52 AM
  #16
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Actually, I'd just like Regier to get his Mike Wilson for Rhett Warrener steal-type deals going.

Ehrhoff was dealt this off-season for virtually nothing, that guy would've been an awesome fit here.
Darcy Regier in 99 would've been the one to get that deal wrapped, not the Canucks.

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01-05-2010, 11:57 AM
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
ask yourself these two questions...

1. Would you trade those 4 assets for a spot in the Stanley Cup Finals?
2. Would the trade I proposed make the Sabres BETTER right NOW?


Yes, its an overpayment...BUT... it could be the RIGHT overpayment.

Of course on HF Prospects, picks, and slowly developing young players are more valuable then the tools needed to win a cup...

think about it again...
I'd trade those 4 assests for a Stanley Cup nothing less. I'm just asking no hostility intended but do you honestly think Kaberle and Stajan are the type of players that would elevate this team to the Stanley Cup Finals? I have high hopes for this team in the playoffs because as we saw in 05-06 anything can happen, but the thing is I don't see Kaberle and Stajan as the type of players that are going to get us there. Would they make us a better team? Yes, but how much better? I would give up the first 3 assests for Kaberle, but I'm not giving up Ennis for Stajan.

I don't think it's the right overpayment as Stajan is not an impact player and not someone I'm interested in trading away my top offensive prospect for. My problem with this proposal is with adding Stajan(because it would mean getting rid of Ennis) not with adding Kaberle.

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01-05-2010, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
Kaberle is signed this year and NEXT.
Certainly a longer rental, in that case ...but still. Not sure. Among NHL prospects, Ennis may not be top 50, but he also probably deserves to be. I frankly want him up now with the waiving of Paestch. If he struggles in the NHL, I might start considering it (not that I'd be giving up on him).

And your first question to ADoubleD is absurd. What's the point of even asking it? Kaberle doesn't guarentee ANYTHING. And you know it.

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01-05-2010, 11:59 AM
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Just echoing my thoughts from the trade thread, I'm not a fan of trading Ennis for Stajan, unless we were pretty sure Stajan would be a good fit on the 2nd/3rd line (does he win faceoffs?) and we could sign him so he'd be more than just a rental.

If not, I'd much rather do something like

Sekera or Butler
and
MacArthur or Stafford
and
2nd or 3rd

for just Kaberle.

Or, put Enroth in place of Ennis.

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01-05-2010, 12:02 PM
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
1. Would you trade those 4 assets for a spot in the Stanley Cup Finals?
2. Would the trade I proposed make the Sabres BETTER right NOW?


Yes, its an overpayment...BUT... it could be the RIGHT overpayment.

Of course on HF Prospects, picks, and slowly developing young players are more valuable then the tools needed to win a cup...
These Sabres aren't a player or two away from winning the Cup though, not unless they're called Alex or Sidney or Evgeni...
And probably not even then.

I might be the only one, but I think this team has overachieved so far this season and rode Miller's ridiculous play as much as it could.

Don't get me wrong, it's a good team, with some great (Myers) and very good (Sekera, Butler) young players on D, and I'm very excited.

But it's not a move or two away from beating the Pens or Caps in a best-of-7 series, or about 4 teams from the West for that matter.

(yes, yes, I know they've beaten the Pens and Hawks, etc... But it's a whole different beast come playoff time, and I honestly don't think the Sabres could beat any of those teams in the spring)

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01-05-2010, 12:04 PM
  #21
Jame
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jflory81 View Post
Certainly a longer rental, in that case ...but still. Not sure. Among NHL prospects, Ennis may not be top 50, but he also probably deserves to be. I frankly want him up now with the waiving of Paestch. If he struggles in the NHL, I might start considering it (not that I'd be giving up on him).

And your first question to ADoubleD is absurd. What's the point of even asking it? Kaberle doesn't guarentee ANYTHING. And you know it.
Its not absurd at all.... That's exactly what a GM asks himself at the deadline when he parts with assets to get a player he needs... "Does this give us a better shot at winning a cup".

When Pittsburgh parted with 3 young assets for Hossa, you don't think that was EXACTLY the question/reasoning used to justify it???

That's what you do when it comes to trading young value assets for veteran proven stars... Will this improve our chances of winning a cup?

The answer to the question in terms of the trade I proposed is YES.

Stafford, Sekera, Ennis, and 1st have VERY LITTLE to do with this team being in 2nd place. Adding arguably the best all around offensive defensemen in hockey AND a valuable forward to the equation improves the Sabres cup chances in a BIG way

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01-05-2010, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlr View Post
Just echoing my thoughts from the trade thread, I'm not a fan of trading Ennis for Stajan, unless we were pretty sure Stajan would be a good fit on the 2nd/3rd line (does he win faceoffs?) and we could sign him so he'd be more than just a rental.

If not, I'd much rather do something like

Sekera or Butler
and
MacArthur or Stafford
and
2nd or 3rd

for just Kaberle.

Or, put Enroth in place of Ennis.
I think taking out Ennis would pretty much be a deal breaker, TBH. Not to mention downgrading the 1st to a 2nd/3rd. Burke hangs up the phone here.

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01-05-2010, 12:06 PM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
Its not absurd at all.... That's exactly what a GM asks himself at the deadline when he parts with assets to get a player he needs... "Does this give us a better shot at winning a cup".

When Pittsburgh parted with 3 young assets for Hossa, you don't think that was EXACTLY the question/reasoning used to justify it???

That's what you do when it comes to trading young value assets for veteran proven stars... Will this improve our chances of winning a cup?

The answer to the question in terms of the trade I proposed is YES.

Stafford, Sekera, Ennis, and 1st have VERY LITTLE to do with this team being in 2nd place. Adding arguably the best all around offensive defensemen in hockey AND a valuable forward to the equation improves the Sabres cup chances in a BIG way
"BETTER SHOT" is much different from:

"Would you trade [them] for a spot in the Stanley Cup Finals?"

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Old
01-05-2010, 12:08 PM
  #24
Jame
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADoubleD View Post
I'd trade those 4 assests for a Stanley Cup nothing less. I'm just asking no hostility intended but do you honestly think Kaberle and Stajan are the type of players that would elevate this team to the Stanley Cup Finals? I have high hopes for this team in the playoffs because as we saw in 05-06 anything can happen, but the thing is I don't see Kaberle and Stajan as the type of players that are going to get us there. Would they make us a better team? Yes, but how much better? I would give up the first 3 assests for Kaberle, but I'm not giving up Ennis for Stajan.

I don't think it's the right overpayment as Stajan is not an impact player and not someone I'm interested in trading away my top offensive prospect for. My problem with this proposal is with adding Stajan(because it would mean getting rid of Ennis) not with adding Kaberle.
I think Kaberle makes an immense difference. He makes us better defensively (a massive upgrade to Butler). He makes our top 6 forwards immensely better at ES as he is literally the 5 BEST puck movers in hockey. And he makes our PP better something we desperately need come playoff time when ES scoring opportunities dry up.

I may have a higher opinion of Stajan then you. I think he's a very good 2nd line center. Im a huge fan of players like Kesler and Stajan. Stajan would also provide Connolly insurance, while also allowing us to get a Connolly line on the ice more for Ozone faceoffs, as Stajan could be the faceoff man for that line

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01-05-2010, 12:15 PM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
I think Kaberle makes an immense difference. He makes us better defensively (a massive upgrade to Butler). He makes our top 6 forwards immensely better at ES as he is literally the 5 BEST puck movers in hockey. And he makes our PP better something we desperately need come playoff time when ES scoring opportunities dry up.

I may have a higher opinion of Stajan then you. I think he's a very good 2nd line center. Im a huge fan of players like Kesler and Stajan. Stajan would also provide Connolly insurance, while also allowing us to get a Connolly line on the ice more for Ozone faceoffs, as Stajan could be the faceoff man for that line
I'm a big fan of Kesler, but I'm cracking up at the comparison of the two. Like they were somewhat equal in defensive ability. At all.

Stajan is underwhelming at best.

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