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Old
01-06-2010, 11:01 AM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baddkarma View Post
orrovergretzky,

I'm with you that its alot of assets to acquire a player like Kovalchuk. If he was acquired AND resigned within the proposed deal the Bruins get the best player (not withstanding the draft pick possibilities) and win the trade easily.

Wheeler is the only one that gives me pause and a guy like Chia with inside info may not include him.

I would argue that when Gretzky was traded the first time the return value paled in comparison to all that he brought to LA. Later trades he was not the same player. They were trading for a legacy and just a darn good player.

BK
The key is the draft picks because you never know how they turn out. But i understand your thinking and agree. As for the Gretzky deal, maybe i didn't word it properly. What i meant was i looked at every deadline deal (or just prior to) going all the way back to 1996 when Gretz was traded. I wasn't just referring to that trade. Sorry for not being to clear on that. I just think that 2 First round picks (especially in the same draft year) plus the players mentioned is too much. I think any trade will have to be unconditional, and lets face it, Atlanta, if he chooses not to re-sign, will be in no position to demand a conditional trade. Sure, some GM will through it in there to sweeten the pot, but they cant demand one.

While i agree having so many draft picks in the next 2 years (and Chia has said this) will make it difficult in the future to keep them all signed, Is it better to trade them now, or see what you can get and trade them 2 or 3 years down the road? I wish i had the answer.

Okay, its a crap shoot. Maybe you've swayed my thinking. Maybe it is worth it. I don't know. I'm glad its not me making the decision.

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01-06-2010, 11:03 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Latrappe View Post
Draft picks are important assets in this cap era and for sure, the Bruins have to be very careful if they decide to move one of Toronto's 1st round pick. That said, the Bruins are not in a re-building mode and they should take a long and hard look if an impact player, who can fill need, is aviable. The Bruins are not a contending team, this year, but they are not very far for that target.
How are they not a contender? Please explain me your criteria for a team to be a contender. The Bruins are a solid team that hasn't reached its full potential yet. Wait till the playoffs come around and you'll see.

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01-06-2010, 11:04 AM
  #28
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Here is my philosophy with all the draft picks.

First and foremost, do not trade them just because we have a lot of them. This classic error was displayed by the NYIslanders who made stupid trades, giving away picks, just to move up and take a guy like Calvin Da Haan, who would have been available later anyway. Treat each pick like it is your only pick in the draft.

Toronto's 1st in 2010 is off the table, period! That pick could be top 3, which is a guaranteed superstar at a bargain basement price for 3 years. One of the most coveted assets in the NHL.

Every other pick is open for discussion, but make sure the trade makes us a LOT better. I would trade our 1st in 2010, or Toronto's 1st in 2011 for a guy like Teemu Selanne, even if he is just a rental. Selanne could put this team over the top.

As for what player we should take with Toronto's 1st in 2010, I would be thrilled with Hall or Fowler. I think Seguin is just as good, but he is a natural center and who knows how he will convert to the wing. I'd definitely take him at 3 and run though. No matter where we land in the draft (it will be top 10 for sure) we should just take our pick. There are really good players after the top 3, like Gormley, Gudbransson, Kabanov, Tarasenko, and my new favorite, Niederreiter. All of those guys could be superstars.

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01-06-2010, 11:05 AM
  #29
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As fast and talented as Hall is, it seems like he's going to need to put on some weight and do it rather quickly. He looks too thin to make it through an NHL season at this point, but that's ok because he's only 18. I just don't expect that he's going to dominate as a rookie and hope those aren't the expectations placed on him.

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01-06-2010, 11:07 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orrovergretzky View Post
The key is the draft picks because you never know how they turn out. But i understand your thinking and agree. As for the Gretzky deal, maybe i didn't word it properly. What i meant was i looked at every deadline deal (or just prior to) going all the way back to 1996 when Gretz was traded. I wasn't just referring to that trade. Sorry for not being to clear on that. I just think that 2 First round picks (especially in the same draft year) plus the players mentioned is too much. I think any trade will have to be unconditional, and lets face it, Atlanta, if he chooses not to re-sign, will be in no position to demand a conditional trade. Sure, some GM will through it in there to sweeten the pot, but they cant demand one.

While i agree having so many draft picks in the next 2 years (and Chia has said this) will make it difficult in the future to keep them all signed, Is it better to trade them now, or see what you can get and trade them 2 or 3 years down the road? I wish i had the answer.

Okay, its a crap shoot. Maybe you've swayed my thinking. Maybe it is worth it. I don't know. I'm glad its not me making the decision.
Well, you got me to thinking about Wheeler. He is starting to look like last year's Wheeler but playing a much faster/more confident game. In a couple years there production could be similar, that being with 10 goals of each other.

With this year's run of bad luck with injuries and alot of high priced talent young cheap players may be needed. I'm not sure what to do but I think Boston has the ammo to land Kovalchuk.

I only want him if resigned. I have no desire to rent him, the team is not having that kind of year.

BK

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01-06-2010, 11:08 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DKH View Post
Anyone know who the Bruins front office/inner circle guys are on this team that make up Chiarelli's so-called cabinet?
Dan, not sure what you are getting at, but I can be pretty dense, so I'm sure there is a point here

For arguments sake, I'd say his four top guys (in no particular order) are probably:

Bradley
Benning
Neely
Sweeney

And I'm sure there are a couple of others I have no clue about and he must get some input from the coaching staff as well? I believe that 3 of the 4 I listed are "player development" guys who have a keen interest in the drafting and developing of young players...so if you are saying that we should not worry because the B's FO has this under control...I agree.

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01-06-2010, 11:27 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Shoebottom View Post
How are they not a contender? Please explain me your criteria for a team to be a contender. The Bruins are a solid team that hasn't reached its full potential yet. Wait till the playoffs come around and you'll see.
Ok...

1- Defense: This team is not very good defensively. The GAA stats ( for the team ) is very, very misleading. Thomas and Rask have to bailed out their defense way too many times and still, our D-man are making ill advised decisions who result in giveaways. It's not going to work against stronger team. Lack of depth is another issue. If Chara or Morris are out for an extended period of time, we are *********. You can't ask McQuaid or Boynchuk to take the slack for a Vets...

2- Offense: Our secondary scoring is second to none. Our offense is streaky and quite frankly, you're not gonna win against Pittsburg, Washington or New-Jersey with Paille, Begin, Thornton, Sobotka and Bitz as our " secondary " scoring. These guys have a great work ethic but they are not goal scorer. As it stand, the Bruins are very easy to defend against: You neutralise the first two lines and you're good to go. Contending teams have, a lots of time, three " scoring " lines who can hurt the opponent. Not the case with the Bruins this year.

3- Inconsistency: I wonder if this Bruins team have played more then 5 "60 minutes" games this season. You're not going to win or even make the playoffs if you play 20 or 40 minutes in a game. The Bruins are not that " talented " and since their system rely on " defense ", they need to play a full 60 minutes to be successfull.

4- Since 2005: 05-06, 06-07: DNQ, 07-08: first round loss, 08-09: 2nd round loss. Before saying that the Bruins can be a " contender ", they have to show us that they have the poise, the work ethic and the energy to go deep in the playoffs. Right now, it's not happenning. Thomas is a good regular season goaltender but he still have to show that he can steal a playoffs game or two. For me, that's a huge question mark since goaltending is the KEY position in the playoffs.


Last edited by Latrappe: 01-06-2010 at 11:39 AM.
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Old
01-06-2010, 11:28 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baddkarma View Post
Well, you got me to thinking about Wheeler. He is starting to look like last year's Wheeler but playing a much faster/more confident game. In a couple years there production could be similar, that being with 10 goals of each other.

With this year's run of bad luck with injuries and alot of high priced talent young cheap players may be needed. I'm not sure what to do but I think Boston has the ammo to land Kovalchuk.

I only want him if resigned. I have no desire to rent him, the team is not having that kind of year.

BK
See, now isn't good honest debate, where we can sway each others opinions what these threads are all about? So now that we are both swayed, where does that leave us ?

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01-06-2010, 12:05 PM
  #34
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I am happy I started it. I just don't want to give up on the chance for the next Patrick Kane and Zach Bogosian

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01-06-2010, 12:30 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diskothek View Post
After seeing the WJC: Fowler > Hall
Hall was the youngest player on the ice last night ,it's very difficult to project 3-4 years away.

Petr


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01-06-2010, 12:34 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Latrappe View Post
Ok...

1- Defense: This team is not very good defensively. The GAA stats ( for the team ) is very, very misleading. Thomas and Rask have to bailed out their defense way too many times and still, our D-man are making ill advised decisions who result in giveaways. It's not going to work against stronger team. Lack of depth is another issue. If Chara or Morris are out for an extended period of time, we are *********. You can't ask McQuaid or Boynchuk to take the slack for a Vets...

2- Offense: Our secondary scoring is second to none. Our offense is streaky and quite frankly, you're not gonna win against Pittsburg, Washington or New-Jersey with Paille, Begin, Thornton, Sobotka and Bitz as our " secondary " scoring. These guys have a great work ethic but they are not goal scorer. As it stand, the Bruins are very easy to defend against: You neutralise the first two lines and you're good to go. Contending teams have, a lots of time, three " scoring " lines who can hurt the opponent. Not the case with the Bruins this year.

3- Inconsistency: I wonder if this Bruins team have played more then 5 "60 minutes" games this season. You're not going to win or even make the playoffs if you play 20 or 40 minutes in a game. The Bruins are not that " talented " and since their system rely on " defense ", they need to play a full 60 minutes to be successfull.

4- Since 2005: 05-06, 06-07: DNQ, 07-08: first round loss, 08-09: 2nd round loss. Before saying that the Bruins can be a " contender ", they have to show us that they have the poise, the work ethic and the energy to go deep in the playoffs. Right now, it's not happenning. Thomas is a good regular season goaltender but he still have to show that he can steal a playoffs game or two. For me, that's a huge question mark since goaltending is the KEY position in the playoffs.
Our D is as solid, I would say even better, as that of the three contender teams you listed. Can you name me all 7 Dmen on NJ right of the top of your head? I can't. Washington has no D, they are all offense. Pitts has a decent group of Dmen. But to say our D is way worse than those three is absurd.

As to the depth of contending teams, our is just as deep or deeper than those three contending teams you list. We have three lines that can score, or at least they did last year. NJ, Washington and Pitts have two solid lines apiece and the rest is made up of pluggers.

The only difference right now between those 3 teams and ours is that their top three forwards are outscoring our top three scorers by an obvious margin. But who is to say we wont start scoring. We need Savard & Krejci to heat up and then we'll see more goals.

I wouldn't call those three teams powerhouses or lable the Bruins a non contender team. Those three teams are playing at their full potential right now (maybe not Pitts). We are not. Once we do, watch out!

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01-06-2010, 12:48 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by petrobruin View Post
Hall was the youngest player on the ice last night ,it's very difficult to project 3-4 years away.

Petr
Fowler is actually about a month younger than Hall, so comparing the two is fair.

I definitely think it is fair to project both of these players as superstars, but Fowler had a better tournament and a great case could be made that he should be taken ahead of Hall.

Also, the draft is all about projecting players who are 3-4 years away. There is no way around it.

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01-06-2010, 12:58 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Beesfan View Post
Fowler is actually about a month younger than Hall, so comparing the two is fair.

I definitely think it is fair to project both of these players as superstars, but Fowler had a better tournament and a great case could be made that he should be taken ahead of Hall.

Also, the draft is all about projecting players who are 3-4 years away. There is no way around it.
I disagree, Hall was a top 3 scorer in the tournament even though he was playing against older, more developed competition.

Yes Fowler was in the same boat age wise and played well defensively, but he didn't dominate in the same fashion Hall did. He had what, 2 assists the entire tourny? There's more to come, but his offensive game could use some developing.

Hall is a guy I think you can plug into an NHL team next year and he's contributing at a high rate. Fowler could be likely be plugged in as well, but expecting him to produce at a high rate would be asking for too much imo.

BPA come draft day with that first pick. Anything else will be a mistake and right now, Fowler is behind Hall, and perhaps even Seguin.

When you look at how they compared to their older peers, Hall was ahead of all but Eberle on the TC squad, and even then the two were on par with their ability to take over a game offensively. Fowler compared well to his peers, but really didn't elevate himself above in the same fashion.


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01-06-2010, 01:11 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Shoebottom View Post
Our D is as solid, I would say even better, as that of the three contender teams you listed. Can you name me all 7 Dmen on NJ right of the top of your head? I can't. Washington has no D, they are all offense. Pitts has a decent group of Dmen. But to say our D is way worse than those three is absurd.

As to the depth of contending teams, our is just as deep or deeper than those three contending teams you list. We have three lines that can score, or at least they did last year. NJ, Washington and Pitts have two solid lines apiece and the rest is made up of pluggers.

The only difference right now between those 3 teams and ours is that their top three forwards are outscoring our top three scorers by an obvious margin. But who is to say we wont start scoring. We need Savard & Krejci to heat up and then we'll see more goals.

I wouldn't call those three teams powerhouses or lable the Bruins a non contender team. Those three teams are playing at their full potential right now (maybe not Pitts). We are not. Once we do, watch out!
Where to start?

1- Our D is as solid, I would say even better, as that of the three contender teams you listed... No, it's not. As i said earlier, the GAA stats is misleading. If you watched plenty of Bruins games this year, you would have noticed that Wideman, Chara, Ference ( he's better lately ) and Hunwick are turning the puck over way more often they they did last year. Too many bonehead plays, odd man rush, breakaways on the PP simply because of bad decisions. No, no and no. This defensive corps do not execute better then NJ and even Buffalo. Again, if you rely solely on the stats, NJ and Buffalo are respectively #2 and #3 in the GAA stats departement.

2- NJ, Washington and Pitts have two solid lines apiece and the rest is made up of pluggers... But at least, they have two solid scoring lines which we don't have. Looch is a great power forward with a scoring touch but he's not a natural goal scorer. On our first two lines, we rely on streaky wingers ( Sturm and Ryder ) to get consistent production and from a " new acquisition "( Satan ) who will do his best but who can't be consider as a legit #1 winger. Washington and Pittsburg have a TON of fire power on the first two lines. We're not even close to that nor that we have a gamebreaker like Crosby or Ovechkin in our lineup... I'l take Dupuis and Guerin as " pluggers " instead of Bitz and Begin...

3- But who is to say we wont start scoring... Consistency, my friend, consistency. If a team can't score 2 goals on a daily base, you can bet a small amount on the fact that they will be handcuff easily by a stronger opponent. Scoring 4 goals against Atlanta, TB, Florida and Carolina is one thing. Scoring 4 goals against Marty Brodeur and Ryan Miller is another one. As is stand ( 42 games ), the Bruins rank at the 25th rank for goal per game ( 2.52 ). That's not enough to win in the playoffs. Do they can improve? Sure they can but i doubt very much that this offense will turn into an offensive powerhouse the last 35+ games. If the " personnel " is a key composant in your offensive production, the decision making of that personnel is a close second. The Bruins score 4 goals, last night, mostly because they were willing to go in the " dirty areas " Aside Recchi and Looch, how many players (with a scoring touch) on this team are willing to go in these areas? Our results on the PP is a clear evidence on how our decision making is flawed at so many levels...

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01-06-2010, 01:20 PM
  #40
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The window to win is very small..

Chara, Savard, Thomas, and even secondary players like Sturm are at their prime.

With such an abundance of picks the next 2 years, I would hope they would risk some of that for a chance to take a run.

Obviously, the deal needs to make sense.

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01-06-2010, 01:21 PM
  #41
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10 to 15 years? hahahaha

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01-06-2010, 01:35 PM
  #42
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lol did someone suggest our secondary scoring is good? We actually have to score an appreciable amount of goals to get praise for scoring.

If you mean that we have competent 3rd-4th line players, then yes.

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01-06-2010, 02:09 PM
  #43
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lol did someone suggest our secondary scoring is good? We actually have to score an appreciable amount of goals to get praise for scoring.

If you mean that we have competent 3rd-4th line players, then yes.
Secondary scoring would be good, if there was primary scoring. This is the area the team is lacking. They have more then enough guys that can legitimately be called 2nd, 3rd, and 4th liners. They have one true top line forward.

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01-06-2010, 03:01 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
I disagree, Hall was a top 3 scorer in the tournament even though he was playing against older, more developed competition.

Yes Fowler was in the same boat age wise and played well defensively, but he didn't dominate in the same fashion Hall did. He had what, 2 assists the entire tourny? There's more to come, but his offensive game could use some developing.

Hall is a guy I think you can plug into an NHL team next year and he's contributing at a high rate. Fowler could be likely be plugged in as well, but expecting him to produce at a high rate would be asking for too much imo.

BPA come draft day with that first pick. Anything else will be a mistake and right now, Fowler is behind Hall, and perhaps even Seguin.

When you look at how they compared to their older peers, Hall was ahead of all but Eberle on the TC squad, and even then the two were on par with their ability to take over a game offensively. Fowler compared well to his peers, but really didn't elevate himself above in the same fashion.
Another argument could be made here and could run in parallel and be just as valid.

What's more valuable?

Steady Eddy Defenceman
or
High octane, game-breaking Forward

???

Don't get me wrong... I dig the hell out of Derek Morris. But give me a Marian Gaborik any day of the ****ing week.

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01-06-2010, 03:52 PM
  #45
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I agree and wouldn't trade any picks at the deadline unless it's a 4th of 5th rounder.

If some good deals could be made,with Savard extended and Krejci and Bergeron still under contract,I would move some prospects like Hamill or Colbourne instead of the picks.I trust Chia,has done a really good job so far

Hamill at pick #8 has been slow to develop in Providence after a serious injury and he is small. The Bruins might move him for the right deal.

Colborne at pick #16 is developing nicely at Denver and is a very big boy. Too soon to let him go until he shows what he can do in Providence.

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01-06-2010, 04:17 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Latrappe View Post
That said, the Bruins are not in a re-building mode and they should take a long and hard look if an impact player, who can fill need, is aviable.

aviable....does that mean a player with the ability to fly?

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01-06-2010, 04:19 PM
  #47
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Hamill at pick #8 has been slow to develop in Providence after a serious injury and he is small. The Bruins might move him for the right deal.

Colborne at pick #16 is developing nicely at Denver and is a very big boy. Too soon to let him go until he shows what he can do in Providence.
True about Colbourne but my point was more about the Toronto picks,I would prefer if PC used a player we already have then him trading anyone of Toronto's picks

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01-06-2010, 04:31 PM
  #48
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Columbus is a team in termoil. Because Hitchcock earns $1.2 million a season, it is thought there is no way the team will fire him because they can't afford to pay him.
Mike Commadore waited until they were on a flight to inform Hitch that he refuses to play until he is feeling 100%. (apperently, he says he's been feeling tired lately and they can't figure out what is wrong). There is a lot of stress between Hitch and some of the players, therefore i believe the team will trade anyone other than Nash.
Most of this from Doug McLean on Hockey Central.

I wouldn't mind a move for Kristian Huselius or RJ Umberger for draft picks but def. not number 1 picks.

Also, Bill Daly was on Hockey Central and stated the Cap for next season should be flat, meaning either up or down only a million dollars. That should help us in that it's not dropping like earlier expectations.

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01-06-2010, 04:46 PM
  #49
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The B's wont' trade TOR's 1st in 2010, I guarantee it. But any other picks, they will. I would bet you a million dollars if I had it, that none of the players available when those picks come up will ever be as good as Kovalchuk. I say if you can do it without trading TOR's 1st in 2010, and you can sign Kovalchuk for a decent price afterwards, pull the trigger.

Kovalchuk isn't going to want 10 million from a contender. The guy's been on gutter teams his whole career, he wants to win and he isn't stupid. He'll still get paid, but he's not going to want as much as some people might think.

Ideally, I'd like a trade of:

Ryder
Wideman
Bos 1st 2010
TB 2nd 2010

But there are a million other trade possibilities, I don't think you should give up both Caron and Colbourne though. They're both 1st round picks, and I don't think you should give up more than one 1st rounder in a deal like this. Either or is fine, but not both. Obviously Ryder and Wideman because of the cap. I like Ryder, but he'd have to go and it'd be worth it. I don't like Wideman at all, never have, really.

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01-06-2010, 05:19 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Krejci View Post
The B's wont' trade TOR's 1st in 2010, I guarantee it. But any other picks, they will. I would bet you a million dollars if I had it, that none of the players available when those picks come up will ever be as good as Kovalchuk. I say if you can do it without trading TOR's 1st in 2010, and you can sign Kovalchuk for a decent price afterwards, pull the trigger.

Kovalchuk isn't going to want 10 million from a contender. The guy's been on gutter teams his whole career, he wants to win and he isn't stupid. He'll still get paid, but he's not going to want as much as some people might think.

Ideally, I'd like a trade of:

Ryder
Wideman
Bos 1st 2010
TB 2nd 2010

But there are a million other trade possibilities, I don't think you should give up both Caron and Colbourne though. They're both 1st round picks, and I don't think you should give up more than one 1st rounder in a deal like this. Either or is fine, but not both. Obviously Ryder and Wideman because of the cap. I like Ryder, but he'd have to go and it'd be worth it. I don't like Wideman at all, never have, really.
Ryder, Wideman = zero value...

Chia: Hi Don, want to trade for Kovalchuk...
Wadell: Still listening...
Chia: i'd like to start with Toronto's 1st round draft pick in '10 and '11
Waddell: that's a good start...
Chia: I'm adding Ryder and Wideman to this deal...
Wadell: Basically, you want me to trade you a game breaker for two 1st round pick and two liability...
Chia: that's a good deal, Don !!!!
Wadell: for you for sure... You get ride of 8 per of salary and got a top 5 forward ( in the entire league )...
Chia: But Don !!!
Wadell: *click*

I guess that's what happend when you offer garbage ( Ryder + Wideman ) for a one of the most dynamic player in the game...


Last edited by Latrappe: 01-06-2010 at 05:43 PM.
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