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Seguin vs. Fowler

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Old
01-07-2010, 06:57 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by AmericanDream View Post
Also, why are you quoting me on anything related to Hall vs. Seguin? Every poster on here has put either Hall or Fowler ahead of Seguin, many who also reside in their backyard, so what are you having trouble with?
I'm not talking to everyone else. I'm talking to you. You're ranking the three of them and dismissing Seguin and I'm questioning how many times you've seen him, living in Chicago.

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Originally Posted by AmericanDream View Post
Tyler Seguin is a solid prospect, but the only people that are actually trying to say Seguin has #1 status are the folks who are trying to sell subscriptions for their sites/magazines.
You mean like Central Scouting? I wasn't aware that they sold subscriptions and magazines.

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Seguin is a great prospect, but imo he has never been in the league of Fowler and Hall.
He is now.

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Originally Posted by AmericanDream View Post
I have been watching Fowler long before you ever had the opportunity to see him.
Um, no.

Windsor this year, NTDP the three years prior, Honeybaked the seven years before that. All in my back yard. I'm that freak that goes to the rink non-stop to watch Honeybaked, Victory Honda, Compuware and Little Caesars.

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Just because it says Chicago, does not mean I do not travel or get to see top prospects every single year.
Everyone says that.

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Originally Posted by AmericanDream View Post
If you actually read anything I wrote, I said that Hall and Fowler have lived up to the hype the past 3 years, I am not ranking these kids on one tournament like many others are.
Yeah, you're ranking them based on seeing Fowler at a Chicago Steel game once a year, seeing Fowler and Hall in the WJC, and Seguin based on other peoples' rankings.

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01-07-2010, 07:15 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by RoadTrip View Post
I'm not talking to everyone else. I'm talking to you. You're ranking the three of them and dismissing Seguin and I'm questioning how many times you've seen him, living in Chicago.



You mean like Central Scouting? I wasn't aware that they sold subscriptions and magazines.



He is now.



Um, no.

Windsor this year, NTDP the three years prior, Honeybaked the seven years before that. All in my back yard. I'm that freak that goes to the rink non-stop to watch Honeybaked, Victory Honda, Compuware and Little Caesars.



Everyone says that.



Yeah, you're ranking them based on seeing Fowler at a Chicago Steel game once a year, seeing Fowler and Hall in the WJC, and Seguin based on other peoples' rankings.
you have been on this site for barely a month, and it completely shows.

Seguin is not in the league of Fowler or Hall, get over it. I know you are proud of your cousin/son/uncle, whatever, but he just isn't...and if your still around come June, I'll make sure to bring up this thread. Seguin didn't even make team Canada whereas Hall was the teams second leading scorer, putting Seguin over him is insane at this point.

Funny part is I spend plenty of time in Michigan, I have plenty of family up there, as well as Wisconsin, so I am very happy with what I get to see and who I have seen. I am no scouting service, I am merely a fan of the game, you on the other hand, are a rookie troller, who will no longer waste my time.

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01-07-2010, 07:21 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by SK13 View Post
Really? Based on what? The fact that Fowler and Hall were consensus top-5 picks last year and Seguin wasn't?

Because by that logic, Angelo Esposito was always in a higher league than Patrick Kane. Not that I'm comparing Esposito to Hall or anything, but I don't think you should belittle Seguin's contribution and rise based on what he didn't do at 16 years old.

He's still a fairly complete two-way centre with size, decent skating ability, a great scoring touch and has been the most consistent producer in the OHL at the tender age of 17 years old. All the hallmarks of an elite player in the making.
who is belittling Seguin's talent? Saying that he is the third overall pick is to belittle? He just does not have the overall talent that Fowler or Hall does, and that is why they both go #1 and #2. Seguin is a great player, I never said anything different.

Pat Kane did come out of nowhere in a sense to take the top spot, but lets not forget the absolute fall Esposito had. He did not drop to #1 or #2, this guy dropped big time. Hall and Fowler have not dropped an ounce since probably two years ago, and that is the big difference here.

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01-07-2010, 07:34 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmericanDream View Post
who is belittling Seguin's talent? Saying that he is the third overall pick is to belittle? He just does not have the overall talent that Fowler or Hall does, and that is why they both go #1 and #2. Seguin is a great player, I never said anything different.

Pat Kane did come out of nowhere in a sense to take the top spot, but lets not forget the absolute fall Esposito had. He did not drop to #1 or #2, this guy dropped big time. Hall and Fowler have not dropped an ounce since probably two years ago, and that is the big difference here.
It still flies in the face of many top-end talents who did ultimately step it up and become All-World talents in their draft years. Matt Duchene would be the latest.

Honestly, I am a bit confused. From the way you were speaking before, you were valuing the past contributions of these players as a reason Seguin "doesn't have their skill". I haven't heard you comment on exactly what about Fowler and Hall makes them more skilled other than the fact that they were considered consensus top-2 picks last year and Seguin wasn't.

I personally take Hall #1 and Seguin #2. It has nothing to do with "selling magazines" as you put it; I liken Seguin to an Eric Staal and think that building from the forward positions back in the draft makes the most sense because of easier development curves.

I'm a BPA guy in most cases, and I don't see much of a gap in the top-three at all. I'll have to watch a few more Plymouth games to confidently say that, but for right now....

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01-07-2010, 07:52 PM
  #30
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Canes would probably take Seguin being that he's a Plymouth Whaler. I'd personally prefer Fowler but it's close for me. I know judging simply based off the WJC is foolish, but Fowler looked extremely cool and composed all tournament long and was right on par with Carlson for the best defenseman on the US team. The Canes could REALLY use a guy like that to build the defense around. I really like the look of a future top four of Fowler, Pitkanen, Gleason and McBain.

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01-07-2010, 07:59 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by AmericanDream View Post
Seguin is not in the league of Fowler or Hall, get over it. I know you are proud of your cousin/son/uncle, whatever, but he just isn't...and if your still around come June, I'll make sure to bring up this thread. Seguin didn't even make team Canada whereas Hall was the teams second leading scorer, putting Seguin over him is insane at this point.
It was Seguin's first training camp and he had a tough time adjusting himself for the tryout. Hall got cut at his first training camp because of the fact that it was hard for him to adjust.

The top 3 reminds me of last years top 3. Tavares and Hedman were the consensus 1/2 pick for so long and Matt Duchene comes out of nowhere and is the dark horse. I guess if history repeats itself than it will go Hall, Fowler and Seguin. All 3 have the potential to be amazing players and I don't think Seguin's that far away from being taken 1st overall. There's still a lot of hockey to be played and I do think that Hall will go first because of the fact that he's been the consensus for so long.

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01-07-2010, 08:01 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by AmericanDream View Post
Seguin is not in the league of Fowler or Hall, get over it. I know you are proud of your cousin/son/uncle, whatever,
Funny, I've been called anti-Seguin by everyone but you, and now he's my "cousin/son/uncle" just because you've never seen him play?

Interesting that I haven't made any proclamations about him, yet you're throwing a fit. All I did was point out that you've never seen him play, and here you are going nuts, accusing me of being related to him.

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Originally Posted by AmericanDream View Post
but he just isn't...and if your still around come June, I'll make sure to bring up this thread. Seguin didn't even make team Canada whereas Hall was the teams second leading scorer, putting Seguin over him is insane at this point.

Funny part is I spend plenty of time in Michigan, I have plenty of family up there, as well as Wisconsin, so I am very happy with what I get to see and who I have seen. I am no scouting service, I am merely a fan of the game, you on the other hand, are a rookie troller, who will no longer waste my time.
All this because I called your bluff.

You've never seen Seguin play. That's fine. But you're running your mouth to people who HAVE seen him play. And I don't even know what you were thinking when you ran your mouth about me not even having the opportunity to see Fowler play. It's one thing to talk a big game and pretend you've seen guys that you haven't, but you would think that you'd actually do a simple Google search before you ran your mouth.

Here's a little hint for ya... I went to a Honeybaked (the team Fowler played for before the NTDP, since you obviously don't know enough about him to know that) home game last night less than five miles from my house. You don't see me running my mouth about Canadian-born WHL players or kids in the Danish leagues, and I'm certainly not trying to tell people who have a WHL team in their back yard about kids who grew up playing at their local rink.


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01-07-2010, 08:53 PM
  #33
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If I'm the Jackets with the #2 pick, I flip a coin. Can't go wrong with either and those are the two positions we need most help in.

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01-07-2010, 09:23 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by RoadTrip View Post
Prior to the WJC, I was telling people that this is an awful year to have a top three pick. Nobody had stood out as a clear #1, but that is no longer the case. The playoffs will speak volumes, but right now there is definitely a clear #1.
Interesting that given you've seen so much OHL hockey, you would let the WJC sway your opinion such. I have seen Hall (once) and Seguin (twice) live, but they only come up to Barrie once a year. Fowler hasn't been here yet.

I think you should rely on what you've seen in the OHL, many players have a good WJC tournament when they are elevated by playing on a team of all-stars (though the Spitfire team could compete with most of the WJC teams, IMO). Others are under the weather or whatever and have a sub par tourney.

The body of evidence in their respective leagues is much larger, and is what I base my views on. Regardless, all three of these players are blue-chip. I think I would go Hall-Seguin-Fowler at this point, just because of the incredible upside with Hall plus his track record in the playoffs last year and what Seguin has been able to accomplish with less support.

Best,
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01-07-2010, 09:35 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by AmericanDream View Post
Seguin didn't even make team Canada whereas Hall was the teams second leading scorer, putting Seguin over him is insane at this point.
Seguin is a 92 and this was his first WJC camp, Hall is a 91 and this was his second camp. He didn't make it first time out either. I wouldn't put so much stock in the WJC, but would look to the larger body of evidence. Which, I believe, does put Hall ahead of Seguin (based on him leading the Spitfires to a Memorial Cup last year).

Best,
Shawn

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01-07-2010, 09:42 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by RoadTrip View Post
Funny, I've been called anti-Seguin by everyone but you, and now he's my "cousin/son/uncle" just because you've never seen him play?

Interesting that I haven't made any proclamations about him, yet you're throwing a fit. All I did was point out that you've never seen him play, and here you are going nuts, accusing me of being related to him.



All this because I called your bluff.

You've never seen Seguin play. That's fine. But you're running your mouth to people who HAVE seen him play. And I don't even know what you were thinking when you ran your mouth about me not even having the opportunity to see Fowler play. It's one thing to talk a big game and pretend you've seen guys that you haven't, but you would think that you'd actually do a simple Google search before you ran your mouth.

Here's a little hint for ya... I went to a Honeybaked (the team Fowler played for before the NTDP, since you obviously don't know enough about him to know that) home game last night less than five miles from my house. You don't see me running my mouth about Canadian-born WHL players or kids in the Danish leagues, and I'm certainly not trying to tell people who have a WHL team in their back yard about kids who grew up playing at their local rink.

wow, you got me.. you will learn how to do things on here, and you surely are a rookie. i dont need to explain to you who i have seen and when. i am glad you "supposedly" googled a few players backround and now you are an expert. you want to compare stories, you can pm me anytime and we can do it that way. i have seen all three of these kids over the years, but what they did at 14 has no bearing here.

be careful with the whole run your mouth thing, as you have been the only one lying....err running their mouth.

i love the line about the Chicago Steel game, as someone like you would obviously know they play in the USHL not the NAHL...Fowler never played for the USNDP in the USHL.

1. Hall
2. Fowler
3. Seguin

hope you like crow in June.

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01-07-2010, 10:34 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by krazy kanuck View Post
Interesting that given you've seen so much OHL hockey, you would let the WJC sway your opinion such. I have seen Hall (once) and Seguin (twice) live, but they only come up to Barrie once a year. Fowler hasn't been here yet.

I think you should rely on what you've seen in the OHL, many players have a good WJC tournament when they are elevated by playing on a team of all-stars (though the Spitfire team could compete with most of the WJC teams, IMO). Others are under the weather or whatever and have a sub par tourney.

The body of evidence in their respective leagues is much larger, and is what I base my views on. Regardless, all three of these players are blue-chip. I think I would go Hall-Seguin-Fowler at this point, just because of the incredible upside with Hall plus his track record in the playoffs last year and what Seguin has been able to accomplish with less support.
On one hand, you don't want to let the WJC sway you, but on the other hand, when you've got two heated games with a playoff atmosphere, you'd be a fool to overlook when one guy dominates the other.

And it's not like I've seen much of anything out of either Fowler or Hall this season anyway. Neither of them have been spectacular in any game I've seen them play. You can tell by Hall's skating and hockey sense that he can play, but he reminds me way too much of Matt Duchene...a shoot-first puck hog who couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with his shot. Fowler didn't impress me offensively in the games I've seen live, but his defense was very solid, he's smart and mobile, has a big frame, and you have to remember that defensemen take longer to come around.

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01-08-2010, 09:14 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by RoadTrip View Post
Being in Chicago, no offense, but I question how many times you've seen Seguin play. You've obviously seen Hall and Fowler at the WJC. But if you're ranking Hall above Seguin, I'd like to know why. Not based on what you've read, but based on what you've *seen*. I don't know that you can fairly compare them without having seen them each a few times.

You also have to remember that the Hall you saw in the WJC is not the same Hall you see in the OHL on a nightly basis, just as the Hall you saw doing squat against the Americans (due in large part to being shut down by Fowler) is not the Hall you saw dominating the garbage teams in the tournament. Similarly, I saw a lot more out of Fowler in the WJC than he has ever shown in the OHL games I've seen him play this year. Having all three in my backyard, I've seen all three play numerous times this season, and I know the strengths and weaknesses to all three quite well.

Prior to the WJC, I was telling people that this is an awful year to have a top three pick. Nobody had stood out as a clear #1, but that is no longer the case. The playoffs will speak volumes, but right now there is definitely a clear #1.
It is not clear, which player are you talking about for the clear #1?

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01-08-2010, 04:40 PM
  #39
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Meanwhile, Seguin named OHL player of the month while Hall and Fowler were away. Kinda unfair to say you 'd have Fowler over Seguin now for his WJC performance if you didn't watch Seguin play.

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01-08-2010, 04:51 PM
  #40
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It depends on your needs.

The Blues have plenty of young D-men so I would probably take Seguin, but I love Fowler. I think he will be better than EJ, JJ, Doughty, Bogosian, etc. when it's all set and done, at least defensively. If my team needed both D and forwards I may even take him first overall.

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01-08-2010, 05:27 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by EJOSHIE10 View Post
It depends on your needs.

The Blues have plenty of young D-men so I would probably take Seguin, but I love Fowler. I think he will be better than EJ, JJ, Doughty, Bogosian, etc. when it's all set and done, at least defensively. If my team needed both D and forwards I may even take him first overall.
that is a pretty big statement, after what I have seen all year, and especially the WJC, Fowler has stepped up a ton and could very well be the best of the bunch defensively. Who do you think he can emulate offensively as a pro?

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01-08-2010, 05:39 PM
  #42
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It was Seguin's first training camp and he had a tough time adjusting himself for the tryout. Hall got cut at his first training camp because of the fact that it was hard for him to adjust.

The top 3 reminds me of last years top 3. Tavares and Hedman were the consensus 1/2 pick for so long and Matt Duchene comes out of nowhere and is the dark horse. I guess if history repeats itself than it will go Hall, Fowler and Seguin. All 3 have the potential to be amazing players and I don't think Seguin's that far away from being taken 1st overall. There's still a lot of hockey to be played and I do think that Hall will go first because of the fact that he's been the consensus for so long.
I agree, and I am not saying it is a knock on Seguin for not making Team Canada, I am pointing out that some scouts have the benefit of watching Hall play at a high level of competition, and got to see how he played and how he handled the pressure... In turn, Seguin did not have this opportunity, and scouts just don't know what he can or can't do in this type of atmosphere quit yet. Obviously the Memorial Cup is a big thing as well and Plymouth did very well last year until they ran into Windsor.

I have gotten to see a few games last year at Plymouth and I usually try and check them out online streams, as they do usually have a nice crop of American kids that I like to follow. The one thing about Seguin is he has played with lesser parts then Hall, and has done almost as much as Hall has. Scouts do love to see players perform without the help of a stacked team, but also that would discredit what Hall has done, because just look at how well his Windsor linemates performed at the WJC???

Hall makes players around him better, and that is something that is very special. I just don't feel that Seguin has those same traits in the end. I am sure I will get heat for this as well, but if Kabanov didn't get hurt, I do feel that he could be the guy to be challenging Hall for the top spot imo.. I know the whole transfew agreement thing will probably drop most Russians now, but his talent is lights out.

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01-08-2010, 06:32 PM
  #43
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As a Canucks fan I take Fowler,we already have Hodgson and Schroeder at the Center position,but there's pretty much no chance we get the 2 nd overall pick.

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01-08-2010, 08:02 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by RoadTrip View Post
On one hand, you don't want to let the WJC sway you, but on the other hand, when you've got two heated games with a playoff atmosphere, you'd be a fool to overlook when one guy dominates the other.
I suppose, but Hall has a whole OHL playoff and Memorial Cup where he dominated... A bad tuna salad can throw you off for a couple games. It may be foolish to overlook a couple of heated games, but I think it is even more foolish to overlook a body of work that includes 100+ Major Junior games at more than 1.5 ppg.

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And it's not like I've seen much of anything out of either Fowler or Hall this season anyway. Neither of them have been spectacular in any game I've seen them play. You can tell by Hall's skating and hockey sense that he can play, but he reminds me way too much of Matt Duchene...a shoot-first puck hog who couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with his shot. Fowler didn't impress me offensively in the games I've seen live, but his defense was very solid, he's smart and mobile, has a big frame, and you have to remember that defensemen take longer to come around.
Hall hasn't impressed when I've seen him live, Seguin has. Having said that, I have seen Hall perform and perform well on TV in high pressure playoff games. Plus, the stats tell a story too...

Best,
Shawn

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01-08-2010, 08:05 PM
  #45
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I agree, and I am not saying it is a knock on Seguin for not making Team Canada, I am pointing out that some scouts have the benefit of watching Hall play at a high level of competition, and got to see how he played and how he handled the pressure... In turn, Seguin did not have this opportunity, and scouts just don't know what he can or can't do in this type of atmosphere quit yet.
Hello,

If there is a NHL scout responsible for the OHL who hasn't seen Tyler Seguin play including playoffs (and often), he should be relieved of his duties...

Best,
Shawn

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01-08-2010, 08:35 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by krazy kanuck View Post
Hello,

If there is a NHL scout responsible for the OHL who hasn't seen Tyler Seguin play including playoffs (and often), he should be relieved of his duties...

Best,
Shawn
funny how you left the part right after that out of my quote, which does state seeing him play in the Memorial Cup....are you going to say that playing at the WJC for your country is not as or more pressure filled then the Memorial Cup?

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01-08-2010, 09:23 PM
  #47
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funny how you left the part right after that out of my quote, which does state seeing him play in the Memorial Cup....
Sorry, was just trying to save space for the reading public and captured the part I wanted to comment on. Here you go:

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Originally Posted by AmericanDream View Post
I agree, and I am not saying it is a knock on Seguin for not making Team Canada, I am pointing out that some scouts have the benefit of watching Hall play at a high level of competition, and got to see how he played and how he handled the pressure... In turn, Seguin did not have this opportunity, and scouts just don't know what he can or can't do in this type of atmosphere quit yet. Obviously the Memorial Cup is a big thing as well and Plymouth did very well last year until they ran into Windsor.

I have gotten to see a few games last year at Plymouth and I usually try and check them out online streams, as they do usually have a nice crop of American kids that I like to follow. The one thing about Seguin is he has played with lesser parts then Hall, and has done almost as much as Hall has. Scouts do love to see players perform without the help of a stacked team, but also that would discredit what Hall has done, because just look at how well his Windsor linemates performed at the WJC???

Hall makes players around him better, and that is something that is very special. I just don't feel that Seguin has those same traits in the end. I am sure I will get heat for this as well, but if Kabanov didn't get hurt, I do feel that he could be the guy to be challenging Hall for the top spot imo.. I know the whole transfew agreement thing will probably drop most Russians now, but his talent is lights out.
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are you going to say that playing at the WJC for your country is not as or more pressure filled then the Memorial Cup?
It may be about equal, and probably depends to some extent on your nationality. Are the Olympics more meaningful or more pressure than the Stanley Cup? Maybe, maybe not. What about the World Championships? I would say definitely not, although some Europeans feel they are very important.

What I will say is this - I think the Memorial Cup is the hardest trophy to win in sport (maybe th UEFA Champions League is comparable). You have to win your league, after a 64-72 game season and 4 playoff rounds, then win a round robin tournament. I think it's more difficult to win than the WJC, especially if you are American, Canadian, Russian or a Swede. It's not a 5 game tournament with a bunch of players that have just been grouped together, and there may not be chemistry. I think you are much better off evaluating on the long season in the OHL, and not on the WJC.

Those are just my two cents.

Best,
Shawn

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01-08-2010, 10:07 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by AmericanDream View Post
I agree, and I am not saying it is a knock on Seguin for not making Team Canada, I am pointing out that some scouts have the benefit of watching Hall play at a high level of competition, and got to see how he played and how he handled the pressure... In turn, Seguin did not have this opportunity, and scouts just don't know what he can or can't do in this type of atmosphere quit yet. Obviously the Memorial Cup is a big thing as well and Plymouth did very well last year until they ran into Windsor.

I have gotten to see a few games last year at Plymouth and I usually try and check them out online streams, as they do usually have a nice crop of American kids that I like to follow. The one thing about Seguin is he has played with lesser parts then Hall, and has done almost as much as Hall has. Scouts do love to see players perform without the help of a stacked team, but also that would discredit what Hall has done, because just look at how well his Windsor linemates performed at the WJC???

Hall makes players around him better, and that is something that is very special. I just don't feel that Seguin has those same traits in the end. I am sure I will get heat for this as well, but if Kabanov didn't get hurt, I do feel that he could be the guy to be challenging Hall for the top spot imo.. I know the whole transfew agreement thing will probably drop most Russians now, but his talent is lights out.
Hall doesn't make the players around him better. The only time I've ever seen that was at the WJC against the weak teams.

Seguin CAN make the players around him better, but he usually doesn't. Plymouth has loads of talent that Seguin doesn't have any confidence in. If Seguin used Czarnik and Brittain to their fullest, that would be one dangerous line to play against, and it would leave a Hayes-Jenks-Meurs 2nd line that could be lethal as well.

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01-09-2010, 02:22 PM
  #49
Sadist
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Why would Seguin pass to Czarnik or Brittian? Brittian spends too much time in the penalty box and Czarnik is highly overrated. The next time I see Czarnik go into the corner for the puck will be the first time.

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01-09-2010, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Sadist View Post
Why would Seguin pass to Czarnik or Brittian? Brittian spends too much time in the penalty box and Czarnik is highly overrated. The next time I see Czarnik go into the corner for the puck will be the first time.
An "elite playmaker" would look for ways to draw attention away from Brittain and feed him the puck, because you always know where he's going to be. He's the Holmstrom of the OHL.

Czarnik isn't overrated. He's not rated in the first place. He's a fast, offensively gifted player who is just as good at shooting the puck as he is at passing it. If you've never seen him go into the corners, then you've obviously never seen him play. He's not a physical player by any stretch of the imagination (he's too small for that even if it were his style), but he's not afraid to go into the corners to get the puck.

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