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Bob Hartley critiquing Gainey

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01-07-2010, 11:11 AM
  #26
25th
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My cousin wrote that article. I'll try to have him ask Hartley if he thinks Cammalleri and Gionta would have signed in MTL if Gomez wasn't aquired the day before?

And if he is such a visionary, what kind of contract would he have givin Plekanec this summer after his sub par season and is lackluster performance in the playoffs.

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01-07-2010, 11:14 AM
  #27
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Probably the same way he got a job on RDS, through friends..

RDS is ridiculously bad, I hate Peladeau but man I'd pay a little extra cash every month just so that RDS don't have the exclusive rights of the Habs anymore.

The lack of professionalism and poor journalism from them is just too much for me.
It's like the Journal de Mtl of TV...so bad to the point of looking worse than amateurish.
What's funny to me is that all the 'analyst' on RDS are putting pressure on Gainey to re-sign Plekanec but there the same one's who wanted him shipped out for basically nothing during the offseason.

And if Gainey does en up re-signing Plekanec they're going to be the same people who will knock Gainey & Plekanec as soon as his performance doesn't = his new salary.

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01-07-2010, 11:17 AM
  #28
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Hartley better leave RDS as soon as possible, or he will forever be caught in their sticky web. Not one of RDS's guest analysts have ever gotten a NHL job after they joined the RDS crew. RDS is a graveyard for pro hockey people.
QFT

Surrounded in mediocrity for too long and you yourself become mediocre.

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01-07-2010, 11:27 AM
  #29
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He's basicly saying that Pleks is a franchise player that can play in all situations.
Also comparing the Habs to a ferrari, if u spend up to the cap u need results.
Blaming Gainey for aquiring Gomez and putting the Habs in a cap mess.
Saying that some goalies take a little longer to fully reach their potential and it is much easier for a team and coach to have a number one and not have the media asking who's playin net tonight.
Thanks man....seems sometimes guys like this just state the obvious, and throw in their opinion to get some people talking...which is what this does...

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01-07-2010, 11:28 AM
  #30
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I think aside from Joel Bouchard...RDS must have a policy in their hiring practices to hire people who are incompetent.

With articles like this, you wonder how the hell this guy coached in the NHL.
What about Denis, or does he just show up from time to time and talk with them ?

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01-07-2010, 11:31 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by 25th View Post
My cousin wrote that article. I'll try to have him ask Hartley if he thinks Cammalleri and Gionta would have signed in MTL if Gomez wasn't aquired the day before?

And if he is such a visionary, what kind of contract would he have givin Plekanec this summer after his sub par season and is lackluster performance in the playoffs.
Everyone seems to forget how bad Pleks was last year, both reg season with 39 pts and the playoffs he and the whole team were brutal. So, in the offseason, BG still had to give him 2.75M for one year, which was around a 1M raise for a bad season.....I hope BG keeps Pleks, and I hope Pleks takes a reasonable contract offer from the Habs....it might have to be one of those long ones to be a cap friendly contract for the team....

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01-07-2010, 11:34 AM
  #32
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What about Denis, or does he just show up from time to time and talk with them ?
I think he only steps in from time to time to replace Senateur Demers and sometimes to participate in L'Antichambre.

Joel Bouchard and him are probably the only ones with some credibility in that crew.

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01-07-2010, 12:37 PM
  #33
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Bob Hartley is really funny on l'attaque cinq. He makes me laugh every time.

What he said in that article is perfectly reasonable. His statements :

"Plekanec is a franchise player"

He is playing like one this season. Now remains to be seen if he can play at that level for years to come. So far, Plekanec has improved every season, nothing indicates he can't... but who knows.

His criterias are a little odd, but whatever.

"If you spend to the cap you should get results"

He also says injury problems aren't the only factor as to why we're sucking. He's right. He also says the habs can't rebuild like other teams can. Right again.

It goes without speaking that spending to the cap means you're trying to be competitive. If you are bottom to middle of the pack while spending to the cap, there is a problem somewhere.

"Gomez is a bad investment"

He says that Gainey made a mistake by helping the rangers. Perfectly reasonable statement. I don't see what's so wrong with it. Gomez was indeed a terrible move, especially considering what we gave up and how we helped a conference rival by doing so.

"Carey Price has not proven to me that he's a consistent #1 after this half of a season."

Again, he's right. Price has faltered numerous times this season. I honestly believe what happened last season would have happened again if we had had a bad back up we couldn't rely on. Fortunately Halak was there to challenge Price and come in relief when Price was about to lose confidence.

So he didn't say anything ludicrous or outlandish. Was it a brilliant imaginative piece of investigative journalism ? No. But I don't see what warrants this whole "omg rds hires incompetent people, omg, so bad" reaction we're seeing in this thread. Altough I tend to agree about RDS sucking, Bob Hartley is hardly the guy to look at as proof of this. RDS sucks because of guys like Le Baron, Normand Flynn, Brunet, Bergeron and Therrien.

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01-07-2010, 12:41 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
What's funny to me is that all the 'analyst' on RDS are putting pressure on Gainey to re-sign Plekanec but there the same one's who wanted him shipped out for basically nothing during the offseason.

And if Gainey does en up re-signing Plekanec they're going to be the same people who will knock Gainey & Plekanec as soon as his performance doesn't = his new salary.
I seriously think the fanbase's knowledge and general opinion of the Habs would change if RDS produced good things.

Goes beyond RDS too, morons on CKAC need to go.

The overall coverage of the Habs is just so bad in Mtl..it's quite surprising when you think about it.

Dub..Gagnon..McGuire are the only three good ones whether you agree with their points or not, they're respectable analysts and commentators. Then you have decent ones in Bouchard and Denis but if they continue on RDS, it's just a matter of time before they turn bad.

I look at TSN, the supposed sister network, and then RDS...Such a long long long way to go.

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01-07-2010, 12:43 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Joe Cole View Post
Hartley better leave RDS as soon as possible, or he will forever be caught in their sticky web. Not one of RDS's guest analysts have ever gotten a NHL job after they joined the RDS crew. RDS is a graveyard for pro hockey people.
Is RDS ruining hockey careers or are people with ruined hockey careers joining RDS ?

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01-07-2010, 12:59 PM
  #36
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What he said in that article is perfectly reasonable. His statements :

"Plekanec is a franchise player"

He is playing like one this season. Now remains to be seen if he can play at that level for years to come. So far, Plekanec has improved every season, nothing indicates he can't... but who knows.

His criterias are a little odd, but whatever.

"If you spend to the cap you should get results"

He also says injury problems aren't the only factor as to why we're sucking. He's right. He also says the habs can't rebuild like other teams can. Right again.

It goes without speaking that spending to the cap means you're trying to be competitive. If you are bottom to middle of the pack while spending to the cap, there is a problem somewhere.

"Gomez is a bad investment"

He says that Gainey made a mistake by helping the rangers. Perfectly reasonable statement. I don't see what's so wrong with it. Gomez was indeed a terrible move, especially considering what we gave up and how we helped a conference rival by doing so.

#1 - Plekanec is playing very well this season...but saying he's playing like a franchise player is pushing it IMO. It takes more than 45 games to establish whether or not a player is a franchise player. Word to the wise, do NOT start overrating Plekanec because you'll be among the first to destroy him when he doesn't live up to your 'franchise player' label. If there's one things alot of Habs fans and members of the Montreal media are famous for, it's for building up players and putting them on ridiculous pedestals, only to tear them down from it when that player doesn't meet that unrealistic expectation.

#2 - When nearly 50% of your cap has been on the sideline for long stretches of the season, it's hard to evaluate whether or not the money you spent was well invested. Lets wait a bit before indicting what he's done this offseason

#3 - Scott Gomez was a bad investment, by the Rangers...Gomez helped the Habs attract several UFA's. I don't know how many times I've got to say this but again, about 8 hourse before July 1st, also known as UFA frenzy day one of the most important days in the NHL, Bob Gainey had the following centers with NHL experience under contract. Maxim Lapierre, Glen Metropolit, Kyle Chipchura & Ben Maxwell (all of 8 games). How the hell was he supposed to attract potential UFA targets like Mike Cammalleri by showing him that he'd be playing with Glent Metropolit?????? Again, the problem is when fans like you and people in the media like Bob Hartley, don't look at the big picture, unlike you and I, Bob Gainey has to look at the big picture not just what's directly in front of him. Was acquiring Gomez a risk, absolutely, but look around the NHL, on EVERY team you can find a bad contract. Why do people always think the Habs are the only one's with a bad contract????

Furthermore, you say it was a terrible move because of what we gave up??? Hmmmm...Chris Higgins is having a TERRIBLE year and is on pace for career low's across the board and at this point is unlikely to be back with the Rangers next year..... Pavel Valentenko is somewhere near Siberia playing in the KHL, whether or not he crosses the pond again is anyone's guess and what impact he eventually has is an even mroe difficult question to answer.....Ryan McDonagh is having a good, not great, season in Wisconsin but he's not even the best defensman on his team (Brendan Smith, a Wings prospect, is by far).

Get your facts straight

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01-07-2010, 01:16 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by E = CH View Post
Bob Hartley is really funny on l'attaque cinq. He makes me laugh every time.

What he said in that article is perfectly reasonable. His statements :

"Plekanec is a franchise player"

He is playing like one this season. Now remains to be seen if he can play at that level for years to come. So far, Plekanec has improved every season, nothing indicates he can't... but who knows.

His criterias are a little odd, but whatever.

"If you spend to the cap you should get results"

He also says injury problems aren't the only factor as to why we're sucking. He's right. He also says the habs can't rebuild like other teams can. Right again.

It goes without speaking that spending to the cap means you're trying to be competitive. If you are bottom to middle of the pack while spending to the cap, there is a problem somewhere.

"Gomez is a bad investment"

He says that Gainey made a mistake by helping the rangers. Perfectly reasonable statement. I don't see what's so wrong with it. Gomez was indeed a terrible move, especially considering what we gave up and how we helped a conference rival by doing so.

"Carey Price has not proven to me that he's a consistent #1 after this half of a season."

Again, he's right. Price has faltered numerous times this season. I honestly believe what happened last season would have happened again if we had had a bad back up we couldn't rely on. Fortunately Halak was there to challenge Price and come in relief when Price was about to lose confidence.

So he didn't say anything ludicrous or outlandish. Was it a brilliant imaginative piece of investigative journalism ? No. But I don't see what warrants this whole "omg rds hires incompetent people, omg, so bad" reaction we're seeing in this thread. Altough I tend to agree about RDS sucking, Bob Hartley is hardly the guy to look at as proof of this. RDS sucks because of guys like Le Baron, Normand Flynn, Brunet, Bergeron and Therrien.
Plekanec is NOT a franchise player. Is everybody that has a good season in the top15 scorer a Franchise player??..
Plekanec is good in every situation, he's a very well rounded player, doesn't make him a Franchise Player.
If he can be a top 15Player in the NHL for a number of seasons, then he'll be considered a Franchise player.
Furthermore, Plekanec has yet to prove a thing in the POs and if we take his famous quote ''I'm playing like a little girl'', then even he knows it.
How can you label him a Franchise player when he's got 13pts in 21PO Games??..

If Carey Price hasn't proven he can be a solid #1 (not a franchise goalie, just a solid #1), then I don't see how Plekanec showed he was a Franchise Player.
Simply doesn't make sense.

And btw, Plekanec had a big regression last year with only 39pts. So no, he didn't improve every year.

Hartley is wrong about Plekanec and I'm sure he would have laughed at anybody calling Plek a franchise player last summer.


He said injuries aren't an excuse, and he's wrong. When half your roster is from AHL, injuries are absolutely an excuse.
Pittsburgh was 10th place last year if I remember correctly before getting Gonchar back. They barely kept a .500 record and that's while having superstars upfront.
Gonchar comes back midway through the year, they go on a tear for the remainder of the year and win the cup.

But no, let's not blame the injuries to O'Byrne, Gionta, Gomez, Markov, Spacek, Hamrlik, Gill, Mara, Pouliot, Laraque, Metropolit, A.Kost, S.Kost...
Ya, this shouldn't hold much of an impact when you have a completely new roster, with a new coach in a new system, trying to establish chemistry.
If you have a team that's been perfecting a system for a couple of years, with most guys that already know each other, then okay you can say injuries shouldn't have a major impact.
But not this year, everything was new, not too many of our guys played together before and on top of it they have to get to know a new coach and system.
Injuries are the main reason why our season has been mediocre.
You can say we lack depth and our youngsters aren't performing as hoped, but if we didn't have all those injuries we'd probably be better off than we are today.

So dismissing injuries as easily is very stupid when you look at the situation our team was in coming into this year.

If you spend to the cap you should be competitive, sure, but how many games did we play with a full cap??..
We have about 2.5M free. After game 1, we had 8.2M (Markov goes down), and our total kept increasing from there.
Kind of useless to say we spent to the cap if we didn't even have the chance to see all those investments perform together.

Gomez trade is bad???...like I said, what else is new??..
Trading Patrick Roy was the dumbest trade ever for the Habs..just so you know..
Now, how about understanding why he made that trade even if it wasn't a great one.

Price didn't prove he was a solid #1..yet another insightful comment..Did anybody say otherwise really??
We have Price and Halak splitting the net. Price is favored because of his potential and it's only normal.
Halak wants the #1 spot. Price wants it too.
Price has played a maximum of 52 in a season, and he's on pace for the same total.
Brodeur wasn't incredible before he was given the full time job. Same thing with Luongo, Fleury and a number of goalies.
The only way to know if a goalie can be a solid #1, is if you give him the responsibility of playing 65+ Games.
Even if Price plays an amazing 45-50Games in a season, how do you know if he can handle it for 15-20Games more??..
You don't unless you try.
So again, why is he saying that exactly??..


You're right, he didn't make any ludicrous or outlandish comment, I disagree with the Plekanec and Injury part, but overall it's not so bad. I don't like Hartley because I didn't like him in Colorado when I was a fan. His analysis are usually bad whenever I listen to him on RDS.

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01-07-2010, 01:29 PM
  #38
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I love the "Gainey helped the Rangers get Gaborik" argument. Because, you know, the Rangers look so much better off now with Gaborik then they did with Gomez.

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01-07-2010, 02:38 PM
  #39
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I'd love for one of the Gomez trade haters to name a better option at Center than Gomez that only cost us spare parts and cash on July 1st. Any don't anyone dare mention cap friendly Vinny

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01-07-2010, 02:44 PM
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He is still pissed because he wasn't chosen as coach. Kind of ruining any future chance though.

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01-07-2010, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
What's funny to me is that all the 'analyst' on RDS are putting pressure on Gainey to re-sign Plekanec but there the same one's who wanted him shipped out for basically nothing during the offseason.

And if Gainey does en up re-signing Plekanec they're going to be the same people who will knock Gainey & Plekanec as soon as his performance doesn't = his new salary.
You're right.

The only problem is that, let say, 60% of the population in Quebec is like those analysts. They live with stats and are bipolar about hockey. RDS is only a reflection of a lot of hockey fans in QC. RDS has ratings because the people recognize themselves in theses analysts.

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01-07-2010, 03:43 PM
  #42
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Is RDS ruining hockey careers or are people with ruined hockey careers joining RDS ?

a lot of both I suppose. Good observation.

Regarding one of your other posts you said " Gomez was indeed a terrible move, especially considering what we gave up and how we helped a conference rival by doing so" and regarding Price not being a #1 you said "Again, he's right. Price has faltered numerous times this season. "

Your opinion on the Gomez trade makes it seem as if was done in a vacuum without any other issues in play, such as trading assets which are depreciating or delayed, who else was available at the time, that the AHL team did not have a replacement for Koivu and Kovy. Without weighing all these issues and others we do not know, I think it is dishonest to say it was just a normal one for one trade gone bad.

Regarding Price not being a #1... I am soooo tired of the Price bashing. And while you may not be directly bashing him, you are adding to the "Price bashing" noise. If he is not a number 1 goalie, answer this: If you are the coach of TEAM X, and you are playing the Stanley Cup champs, who do you put in net? Your healthy #1 goaltender or your #2? Same goes for the opposite end of the standings, if you are playing the last place team in the NHL, who do you put in net, your #1, or your #2?

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01-07-2010, 04:32 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by E = CH View Post
Bob Hartley is really funny on l'attaque cinq. He makes me laugh every time.

What he said in that article is perfectly reasonable. His statements :

"Plekanec is a franchise player"

He is playing like one this season. Now remains to be seen if he can play at that level for years to come. So far, Plekanec has improved every season, nothing indicates he can't... but who knows.

His criterias are a little odd, but whatever.

"If you spend to the cap you should get results"

He also says injury problems aren't the only factor as to why we're sucking. He's right. He also says the habs can't rebuild like other teams can. Right again.

It goes without speaking that spending to the cap means you're trying to be competitive. If you are bottom to middle of the pack while spending to the cap, there is a problem somewhere.

"Gomez is a bad investment"

He says that Gainey made a mistake by helping the rangers. Perfectly reasonable statement. I don't see what's so wrong with it. Gomez was indeed a terrible move, especially considering what we gave up and how we helped a conference rival by doing so.

"Carey Price has not proven to me that he's a consistent #1 after this half of a season."

Again, he's right. Price has faltered numerous times this season. I honestly believe what happened last season would have happened again if we had had a bad back up we couldn't rely on. Fortunately Halak was there to challenge Price and come in relief when Price was about to lose confidence.

So he didn't say anything ludicrous or outlandish. Was it a brilliant imaginative piece of investigative journalism ? No. But I don't see what warrants this whole "omg rds hires incompetent people, omg, so bad" reaction we're seeing in this thread. Altough I tend to agree about RDS sucking, Bob Hartley is hardly the guy to look at as proof of this. RDS sucks because of guys like Le Baron, Normand Flynn, Brunet, Bergeron and Therrien.


we'll put sir, i was thinking the same things you wrote as i was reading the article. I read the posts before going through the whole thing.

I actually enjoy listening to Hartley on RDS. boohoo if anyone critiques Gainey, they must all be idiots.

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01-07-2010, 05:35 PM
  #44
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we'll put sir, i was thinking the same things you wrote as i was reading the article. I read the posts before going through the whole thing.

I actually enjoy listening to Hartley on RDS. boohoo if anyone critiques Gainey, they must all be idiots.
Gainey has done mistakes, very much like every other GM in this league.

It's one thing to blindly criticize Gainey for getting an overpaid Gomez, it's another to constructively criticize him after realizing why he went after Gomez.

Funny thing is the same Hartley you enjou listening too, would have been for a Lecavalier deal.
Sure, Vinny still has 39pts in 42GP, but didn't Hartley say when you're paid that much you should also score goals???...Vinny only has 10.
Furthermore, Vinny's contract is double the length.
To make matters worse, he would have cost a lot more than just Higgins and McDo.

So really, Hartley isn't making himself look good.
Perron is as dumb as one could get though because he'd still trade Plek+ for Vinny.

Also, the Gomez trade has been discussed endlessly. It brings nothing new to the table and just sounds like old bickering.

What's the point of writing something that's obvious??..
Did you know that the sun shined in the morning and sets at night???..

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Originally Posted by Ray Sheppards Pie View Post
You're right.

The only problem is that, let say, 60% of the population in Quebec is like those analysts. They live with stats and are bipolar about hockey. RDS is only a reflection of a lot of hockey fans in QC. RDS has ratings because the people recognize themselves in theses analysts.
RDS has ratings because they have the exclusive rights of the Habs.
If a new TV channel completely independent named RSTV would suddenly have the exclusivity over Habs game, they would have incredible ratings too.

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01-07-2010, 07:07 PM
  #45
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That is why coachs need to stay coachs and not become GMs. They have the attention span of ferrets and think because a guy is having a good year he's a franchise player.
none of us can say wether or not this season is just a "career best" year for pleks, or the sign of things to come... people seem to forget that he is still a pretty young player, so there is as much reason to believe that he's still improving (perhaps more) than to think that this is just a fluke year he'll never repeat.


Looking at the team this season, can anyone argue that he's been our best player, by far? Our franchise may only be a borderline playoff team, but as far as this lineup is concerned, pleks CLEARLY is playing at a "franchise player" level for us, this year.

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01-07-2010, 07:24 PM
  #46
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none of us can say wether or not this season is just a "career best" year for pleks, or the sign of things to come... people seem to forget that he is still a pretty young player, so there is as much reason to believe that he's still improving (perhaps more) than to think that this is just a fluke year he'll never repeat.


Looking at the team this season, can anyone argue that he's been our best player, by far? Our franchise may only be a borderline playoff team, but as far as this lineup is concerned, pleks CLEARLY is playing at a "franchise player" level for us, this year.
Plek has pretty much been playing as a top 10 player for us this year. He's been amazing. But that doesn't mean he's a Franchise Player which is what Hartley said.

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01-08-2010, 12:25 AM
  #47
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Gainey has done mistakes, very much like every other GM in this league.

It's one thing to blindly criticize Gainey for getting an overpaid Gomez, it's another to constructively criticize him after realizing why he went after Gomez.

Funny thing is the same Hartley you enjou listening too, would have been for a Lecavalier deal.
Sure, Vinny still has 39pts in 42GP, but didn't Hartley say when you're paid that much you should also score goals???...Vinny only has 10.
Furthermore, Vinny's contract is double the length.
To make matters worse, he would have cost a lot more than just Higgins and McDo.

So really, Hartley isn't making himself look good.



Perron is as dumb as one could get though because he'd still trade Plek+ for Vinny.

Also, the Gomez trade has been discussed endlessly. It brings nothing new to the table and just sounds like old bickering.

What's the point of writing something that's obvious??..
Did you know that the sun shined in the morning and sets at night???..



RDS has ratings because they have the exclusive rights of the Habs.
If a new TV channel completely independent named RSTV would suddenly have the exclusivity over Habs game, they would have incredible ratings too.
Last year, half this board would have been up for a Vinny trade, you're right though the Gomez thing has been discussed to death.

Dont get me started on Perron.


Last edited by Saint Patrick: 01-08-2010 at 12:35 AM.
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01-08-2010, 02:00 AM
  #48
Komarov47
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Originally Posted by HabFan1975 View Post
Very good article by mr Hartley, of course he's stating the obvious but still a good read.
http://www.rds.ca/canadien/chroniques/289415.html
well i always liked Hartley, i hope he will be the Blues coach soon !

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01-08-2010, 02:15 AM
  #49
Saint Patrick
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Originally Posted by pam19 View Post
Today: Kovalchuk at 7.5 or Plekanec at 2.75?

Next year: Kovalchuk at 11M or Plekanec at 5.5M?

Kovalchuk is great but... 11M?

Let's say it otherwise... two Plekanec of one Kovalchuk and one Metropolit?

You need many vehicules: one Lada and one Mercedes or two Camry?
Kovalchuk wont get 11m, i dont think he wants that much anyway. Its been debated but the idea is that he set the bar high for Atlanta because he wants out. I think he'll get a similar deal as Hossa, in that case Yes I would take the Lada and Mercedes.

Wont happen though, sadly enough.

Regarding the article though I dont think Hartley was saying that Kovalchuk isnt a franchise player, just that hes a different one. I probably wouldnt see Kovalchuk defending a 5-3 either, but when it comes to offense there is no denying his talent.

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01-08-2010, 02:52 AM
  #50
Kimota
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
The guy didn't stay in the NHL for very long..surprising if you didn't know him because he won a cup in his short stint there.
But when you know him, like you said, you scratch your head as to how he even got there...
The man was so lucky to land on such a talented team. I'm still trying to figure out how he communicated with his players in english considering his french is barely comprehensive (and I'm a Franco).
I will say this I doubt Serge Savard is stupid and if he thought Perron had the abilities to be a coach in the NHL, he must have seen something from him that impressed him. And fate give him reason too as Perron gave him the cup. He was only fired because Habs players like Corson, Chelios and Svoboda got into an accident and Savard thought it was unforgivable.

Perron sounds like a crazy old man now, but most former coachs I noticed don't much sound like brain surgeons. Even from guys that have been fired recently like McTavish and so forth, rarely does something brilliant comes out of their mouth. Being coach is being a leader of men(and boys) more than anything else. It's a simple job and they're in the profession of handling humans in a team sports wich requires different abilities than running a club or coming up with a new mathematical formula. You also don't have the time to have an overall view of what's going on in the league and how other coachs are doing thing differently. You just focus on your team and what you can do to make them better every day. Coachs have a very narrow view of things.

I can only count a few that would make interesting analysts enough after being coach. Maybe Jacques Martin because while being boring, he's known as a teacher and professor of the game.

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