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Old
01-08-2010, 12:15 AM
  #26
tarlinian
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His ability to lean on forwards and keep them to the outside has improved. Other than physicality, I'm not sure what else there is to improve in his defensive game.

And there is absolutely no way that you can say that his offensive game hasn't improved. When he came into the league, his offensive ability barely rivaled Murray's. (I know they have the same number of points, but being Dan Boyle's partner will give you a few extra assists. Being a Chelios-esque Blake's partner will not.) Yesterday, he was the best offensive dman on a team that has Dan Boyle. (Yes, it was a down day for Boyle, and no I'm in no way saying that Vlasic is better than Boyle. But Boyle is IMO arguably the best offensive dman in the league. Expecting that out of him, ever, is ludicrous.) His +/- still tops the Sharks dmen.

I feel like a lot of the disappointment also stems from Ehrhoff being the one traded away and doing so well in Vancouver. What's we're all ignoring though is that the choice wasn't Vlasic or Ehrhoff, it was Vlasic Ehrhoff, or Blake. And to be honest, if Vlasic was gone, I'm not sure any D pairing with Blake would be palatable. Vlasic is definitely our best dman in transition, while Blake is the worst. I don't think anyone would be able to cover for him effectively.

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01-08-2010, 12:25 AM
  #27
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Recognizing that the internets is bipolar and people tend to take sentiments to the extreme online, I would also like to add, for myself if not for others, that just because I criticize Vlasic's play doesn't mean I think he sucks or want him traded. There are many strong areas to Vlasic's game.

But there are also parts that are glaringly lacking, and I think it's okay to call them out if they're noticeable, just as I will praise his good plays when they are noticeable.

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01-08-2010, 01:31 AM
  #28
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I think he's made a lot of progress this year in certain aspects of his game that were seen as deficiencies. He's a lot more aggressive in both zones. In case you haven't noticed, his hit totals this year will increase yet again. Last year, he had 56 official hits compared to 24 the year before and 26 during his rookie campaign. He's got 43 right now only a bit over halfway through the year. He's been pinching in a lot more and carrying the puck a lot more. He's been doing the things all the people here have wanted him to do. What people just don't understand is that the more offensive responsibility he shoulders and the more he incorporates that into his game, the more slack you have to give him because he's still learning, he's still young, and until last season had no reason to focus on it because the RW coaching staff had him focus on defense.

The reason why Carle and Ehrhoff struggled so much during the RW era is that they were not able to learn or make up for the mistakes. Vlasic is getting an opportunity now to make those mistakes, learn, and apply them. He's going to have egregious turnovers and he's going to have a lot of them. However, if you expect him to be anything remotely good offensively, you have to give him a large leash and learn.

He is still our 2nd best defenseman on this team. He is our best defensive defenseman and he's at least shown willingness to gamble and be aggressive. My biggest criticism of his has been that and I'm glad McLellan has pushed him in this direction because he needs to learn so that he's not just a new age Scott Hannan that can't handle big forwards.

He still has to work on his net presence defensively especially against bigger guys but as long as he's making progress mentally and offensively while not regressing where his strengths are defensively, I am pleased. Thus far, I believe he has done so.

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01-08-2010, 02:13 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
I think he's made a lot of progress this year in certain aspects of his game that were seen as deficiencies. He's a lot more aggressive in both zones. In case you haven't noticed, his hit totals this year will increase yet again. Last year, he had 56 official hits compared to 24 the year before and 26 during his rookie campaign. He's got 43 right now only a bit over halfway through the year. He's been pinching in a lot more and carrying the puck a lot more. He's been doing the things all the people here have wanted him to do. What people just don't understand is that the more offensive responsibility he shoulders and the more he incorporates that into his game, the more slack you have to give him because he's still learning, he's still young, and until last season had no reason to focus on it because the RW coaching staff had him focus on defense.

The reason why Carle and Ehrhoff struggled so much during the RW era is that they were not able to learn or make up for the mistakes. Vlasic is getting an opportunity now to make those mistakes, learn, and apply them. He's going to have egregious turnovers and he's going to have a lot of them. However, if you expect him to be anything remotely good offensively, you have to give him a large leash and learn.

He is still our 2nd best defenseman on this team. He is our best defensive defenseman and he's at least shown willingness to gamble and be aggressive. My biggest criticism of his has been that and I'm glad McLellan has pushed him in this direction because he needs to learn so that he's not just a new age Scott Hannan that can't handle big forwards.

He still has to work on his net presence defensively especially against bigger guys but as long as he's making progress mentally and offensively while not regressing where his strengths are defensively, I am pleased. Thus far, I believe he has done so.
Thank you for saying in a much clearer way what I was trying to describe. Vlasic still has deficiencies but has improved and will still need more time to become a top tier defenseman. There weren't many great defensemen better than him at 22. (Perhaps, we've been spoiled by the likes of Doughty, Myers and EJ.)

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01-08-2010, 03:44 AM
  #30
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Vlasic in a nutshell:

Offensive zone:
  • Shoots wide. All. The. Time. Not only does he not get the shot on net, it usually ends up rimming around and out of the zone. What's the best way to take pressure of the defenders? Give the puck to Vlasic.
  • Shoots into defenders because he doesn't move his feet to get a shooting lane.
  • Horrible passing in the offensive zone, usually because he's not moving his feet and/or just want to get the puck off his stick in a hurry.
  • Has only 10 points even though he's had tons of ice time on the PP. Kent Huskins has 14 points for crying out loud.
  • Bad at keeping the points sealed off in the offensive zone because he backs out way too early to make up for his lack of speed.

Defensive zone:
  • When he gets the puck, he almost immediately rims it around the boards, regardless if the other team has the points sealed off and/or there's room to skate with the puck. Most of the time it's picked off.
  • Lacks physicality. Usually just fishes for the puck in the corners and behind the net. Relies on stickwork too much.
Sure he's only 22, but he's making $3M+ and he's not worth it. He's not showing improvement for somebody that's only 22. If anything, he's regressed a little. He was very good his rookie season (for a rookie). Last season he absolutely sucked in the playoffs and this season he's pretty much the same. Not any faster. Not any stronger. And perhaps even a little more timid.

Ehrhoff, on the other hand, showed improvement every year and even developed a bit of grit last season. Both Ehrhoff and Lukowich were better than Vlasic in the playoffs last year and I'd rather have those two this year than Vlasic and Huskins. Add Blake to the list of people who should've been shown the door as well.

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01-08-2010, 09:09 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
I think he's made a lot of progress this year in certain aspects of his game that were seen as deficiencies. He's a lot more aggressive in both zones. In case you haven't noticed, his hit totals this year will increase yet again. Last year, he had 56 official hits compared to 24 the year before and 26 during his rookie campaign. He's got 43 right now only a bit over halfway through the year. He's been pinching in a lot more and carrying the puck a lot more. He's been doing the things all the people here have wanted him to do. What people just don't understand is that the more offensive responsibility he shoulders and the more he incorporates that into his game, the more slack you have to give him because he's still learning, he's still young, and until last season had no reason to focus on it because the RW coaching staff had him focus on defense.

The reason why Carle and Ehrhoff struggled so much during the RW era is that they were not able to learn or make up for the mistakes. Vlasic is getting an opportunity now to make those mistakes, learn, and apply them. He's going to have egregious turnovers and he's going to have a lot of them. However, if you expect him to be anything remotely good offensively, you have to give him a large leash and learn.

He is still our 2nd best defenseman on this team. He is our best defensive defenseman and he's at least shown willingness to gamble and be aggressive. My biggest criticism of his has been that and I'm glad McLellan has pushed him in this direction because he needs to learn so that he's not just a new age Scott Hannan that can't handle big forwards.

He still has to work on his net presence defensively especially against bigger guys but as long as he's making progress mentally and offensively while not regressing where his strengths are defensively, I am pleased. Thus far, I believe he has done so.

This is a good a post and pretty much spot on. My issue with him is basically what you posted. Though I have never been concerned with his offensive game, I really just dont care, I think he needed to learn it somewhat but I want him to be a good defensemen first. His crease work needs a lot of work but my main concern is basically that he is still being pushed around by larger forwards. I dont know if its something he will ever be able to rectify but I wish he would do some more strength training in that regard.

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01-08-2010, 10:32 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by CrazedZooChimp View Post
Vlasic was kept on this team because someone thinks he can step it up, but honestly, I don't think he's having a better season than he had last year, maybe even not than the year before.
No Vlasic was kept because he make 3.1 through 2012-2013 compared to Erhoff who is only signed through 2010-11 and then will likely be in line for a nice increase. To judge which was the better move you are going to have to wait till 2011-2012 and compare Erhoff and Vlasic, also counting that Erhoff will be making more money.



Quote:
Pickles has always been paired with better players. When Dmen get hurt, others take the new kids as their partner. Last year it was usually Ehrhoff, this time it seems to be Boyle and Huskins, for some reason). He was expected, I presume, to be the 2nd best dman on this team, and he's not playing like the 2nd best dman on a cup winning team should.
I have to disagree with you that Blake is better than Vlasic??? Sure he used to be, but his games a slipped since his injury. And i think alot of the way Pickles plays is exactly how TM wants him to play. He isnt asked to jump into the play, in fact playing with an aging Blake likely means he is told (or feels) like he needs to take less chances.

IMO Pickles will never be an Boyle or a Pronger. He is going to continue to mature into a solid two-way top 4 Dman who can play 20+ minutes till he is in his mid-30s.

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01-08-2010, 10:36 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by one2gamble View Post
This is a good a post and pretty much spot on. My issue with him is basically what you posted. Though I have never been concerned with his offensive game, I really just dont care, I think he needed to learn it somewhat but I want him to be a good defensemen first. His crease work needs a lot of work but my main concern is basically that he is still being pushed around by larger forwards. I dont know if its something he will ever be able to rectify but I wish he would do some more strength training in that regard.
I think if given time he will improve that aspect of his game. Most NHL players don't reach their peak in terms of their body and using it well until they're 25-27 like Ehrhoff has been doing this year and last year. The problem that is easily fixable is his attitude when defending. He was brought up and told to play a contain game and that's how he plays in front. He's getting away from the contain defense and playing more aggressive and once his body matures, both will help him in front of the net.

Anybody who thinks he's regressed has not been looking close enough and has only noticed him give the puck away and shoot wide. You know...a lot of the things people were crying about with Ehrhoff. If people and especially management don't give these defensemen a good 3 or 4 years to develop through error their offensive game, they will either never develop it or will be moved to a team that will develop it. The talent is there but learning how to execute it consistently does not happen overnight and it doesn't happen within even a single season. For defensemen that aren't Niedermayers, Prongers, and Lidstrom types, it takes them years.

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01-08-2010, 10:49 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by OneTooth View Post
Vlasic in a nutshell:

Offensive zone:
  • Shoots wide. All. The. Time. Not only does he not get the shot on net, it usually ends up rimming around and out of the zone. What's the best way to take pressure of the defenders? Give the puck to Vlasic.
  • Shoots into defenders because he doesn't move his feet to get a shooting lane.
  • Horrible passing in the offensive zone, usually because he's not moving his feet and/or just want to get the puck off his stick in a hurry.
  • Has only 10 points even though he's had tons of ice time on the PP. Kent Huskins has 14 points for crying out loud.
  • Bad at keeping the points sealed off in the offensive zone because he backs out way too early to make up for his lack of speed.

Defensive zone:
  • When he gets the puck, he almost immediately rims it around the boards, regardless if the other team has the points sealed off and/or there's room to skate with the puck. Most of the time it's picked off.
  • Lacks physicality. Usually just fishes for the puck in the corners and behind the net. Relies on stickwork too much.
If your statements is accurate explain to me a couple things:

1) How is a player who had no offensive ability and weak in transition +7 ?

2) If he is so weak in his own zone how does an NHL level coach play a player like this for 20+ minutes?

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01-08-2010, 11:53 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Herschel View Post
If your statements is accurate explain to me a couple things:

1) How is a player who had no offensive ability and weak in transition +7 ?

2) If he is so weak in his own zone how does an NHL level coach play a player like this for 20+ minutes?
+ 7 isn't that fantastic a plus/minus on the Sharks. Some players are more than double that. Also, plus/minus isn't the gold standard for defenseman that some people treat it. There's five other players on the ice, different players get sent against different quality offense, etc. Boyle's is two lower than Huskin's for instance. Do you think that's because Huskins is better, or because Boyle goes out against scoring lines and Huskins goes out against checking lines?

For a defenseman, a little more than 20 minutes per game isn't astronomical. The top 30 in the NHL all have more than 23 and a half. Vlasic's season average is around 20, but lately Murray's been getting more time than Vlasic and Vlasic's been shifted to third or fourth.

Players are judged contextually. All NHL players would be called amazing at hockey if we judged by the average human. But we judge them relative to their salary, to their expectations, and to their own past. Vlasic, despite being young, has regressed from last season, so he's a big dissapointment. The expectations and the salary were that he'd be a first line quality defenseman, and he's not, so he's getting a lot of flak. Murray has been better this year for less salary. Murray has been getting better and Vlasic worth, so they're judged on different standards.

The impression I get from him is that he's fragile, both in terms of pressure and in terms of fearing physicality. He's an alright puck mover when there's no traffic, but really, who isn't? In important game situations or with lots of traffic around him, though, he breaks, often making ******** moves when he has to make a decision. This gem from last game, for instance: http://video.nhl.com/videocenter/con...4&event=S.J643. As for mental pressure, last year he had one point in the Anaheim series and had the lowest plusminus on the team.

PS his name is spelt Marc-Edouard. It's a croatian name.

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01-08-2010, 12:13 PM
  #36
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Here is the quality of competition ranking for Sharks dmen, 5on5. Vlasic and Blake lead. Vlasic also has a low quality of teammate, more than Blake.

http://www.behindthenet.ca/2009/new_...team=S.J&pos=D

Here are the Corsi ratings, which are a composite. Vlasic doesn't look so good here.

http://www.behindthenet.ca/2009/new_...team=S.J&pos=D

PK rankings for Sharks dmen. Vlasic is leading on +-/60 but he is taking on the second units on PK from the qualcomp ranking.

http://www.behindthenet.ca/2009/new_...team=S.J&pos=D

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01-08-2010, 12:21 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
Here is the quality of competition ranking for Sharks dmen, 5on5. Vlasic and Blake lead. Vlasic also has a low quality of teammate, more than Blake.

http://www.behindthenet.ca/2009/new_...team=S.J&pos=D

Here are the Corsi ratings, which are a composite. Vlasic doesn't look so good here.

http://www.behindthenet.ca/2009/new_...team=S.J&pos=D

PK rankings for Sharks dmen. Vlasic is leading on +-/60 but he is taking on the second units on PK from the qualcomp ranking.

http://www.behindthenet.ca/2009/new_...team=S.J&pos=D
That's way too intense for my brain... I'll trust my eyes over that stuff.

In Pickle's defense (sorry), he's had a slightly better December. He started out dismal, and only around the beginning of December, pulled his +/- out of the red.

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01-08-2010, 12:27 PM
  #38
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I'm all for the convuluted math but I'd like a better idea of what they're based on if possible. What are the Corsi ratings based on and why are they so different.

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01-08-2010, 12:37 PM
  #39
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That's way too intense for my brain... I'll trust my eyes over that stuff.

In Pickle's defense (sorry), he's had a slightly better December. He started out dismal, and only around the beginning of December, pulled his +/- out of the red.
I use my eyes as well, but using the numbers tends to take out the tinted shades.

It is frustrating for me to hear all or nothing on various players when the details show the good and the bad. The numbers can bring out the details.

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Originally Posted by Derick View Post
I'm all for the convuluted math but I'd like a better idea of what they're based on if possible. What are the Corsi ratings based on and why are they so different.
Here is a basic explanation:
Quote:
Corsi Number (or Corsi Rating) is similar to +/- only it counts the number of shots directed towards goal at even strength instead of goals scored/against. Shots directed towards goal include all missed shots and blocked shots. So if you were on the ice for a shot on goal and a missed shot on offense (+2) and a shot on goal on defense (-1), you would have a corsi rating of +1. The metric was developed by Jim Corsi. No, not the bruly former Red Sox reliever pictured above. There is another Jim Corsi who is the goaltending coach for the Buffalo Sabres, who wanted to develop a more accurate statistic to guage a player's performance at even strength. Like all statistical metrics, it isn't perfect but it is another why to break down a player's performance.
http://www.stanleycupofchowder.com/2...s-the-good-the

Corsi is currently the goaltending coach for the Buffalo Sabres.

Basically what the Corsi rating is saying for Vlasic is that he isn't contributing as well as others to getting the puck out of his own zone and/or keeping it in the offensive zone and getting it to other players. That Corsi number being low is partially explained by the quality of competition ranking, but that is only a partial excuse. As an example, Matt Carle of Philly can be used where he gets the highest quality of competition on his team along with Pronger yet his Corsi rating is middle of the pack on the team and above 0.

One of the things that frustrated me about Rivet was the play that resulted in his Corsi numbers. He can't hold the puck in the zone to save his life. He isn't even getting the shutdown role in Buffalo and his Corsi is lower than Vlasic's.


Last edited by SJeasy: 01-08-2010 at 12:53 PM.
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01-08-2010, 12:46 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
Here is the quality of competition ranking for Sharks dmen, 5on5. Vlasic and Blake lead. Vlasic also has a low quality of teammate, more than Blake.

http://www.behindthenet.ca/2009/new_...team=S.J&pos=D

Here are the Corsi ratings, which are a composite. Vlasic doesn't look so good here.

http://www.behindthenet.ca/2009/new_...team=S.J&pos=D

PK rankings for Sharks dmen. Vlasic is leading on +-/60 but he is taking on the second units on PK from the qualcomp ranking.

http://www.behindthenet.ca/2009/new_...team=S.J&pos=D
A slight (what I believe to be correct) clarification. Corsi ratings don't actually take into account quality of competition and quality of teammates. They are simply based on shot differentials.

An explanation of the quality of competition statistic can be found here in the first three Q&As.

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01-08-2010, 12:50 PM
  #41
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I use my eyes as well, but using the numbers tends to take out the tinted shades.

It is frustrating for me to hear all or nothing on various players when the details show the good and the bad. The numbers can bring out the details.
heh... i'm not denying the relevance. just saying i don't compute.

and you're right... it's not fair to relentlessly bag on Vlasic. he definitely has a permanent place on this team. and no one could deny the potential he has to play of both ends, because we've all seen it.

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01-08-2010, 01:03 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by tarlinian View Post
A slight (what I believe to be correct) clarification. Corsi ratings don't actually take into account quality of competition and quality of teammates. They are simply based on shot differentials.

An explanation of the quality of competition statistic can be found here in the first three Q&As.
Yeah, sorry I wasn't clear. I use the Corsi in conjunction with qualcomp and qualteam to get a rounder view. If a guy has a shutdown role, it shows in qualcomp which helps explain a lower Corsi number. Qualteam is another where if it is low (eg. quality vet with 7th dman), a partial explanation of a low Corsi is reasonable.

For all:
Please read the explanations at behindthenet. Also note that Desjardins has issues with the way he presents his numbers. He does not include 4on4 play at all. And, he does not present numbers compiled for all situations. This severely compromised his stats with regards to Ehrhoff who excelled at 4on4. If there are other shortcomings in his approach, please let me know.

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01-08-2010, 01:35 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
Yeah, sorry I wasn't clear. I use the Corsi in conjunction with qualcomp and qualteam to get a rounder view. If a guy has a shutdown role, it shows in qualcomp which helps explain a lower Corsi number. Qualteam is another where if it is low (eg. quality vet with 7th dman), a partial explanation of a low Corsi is reasonable.

For all:
Please read the explanations at behindthenet. Also note that Desjardins has issues with the way he presents his numbers. He does not include 4on4 play at all. And, he does not present numbers compiled for all situations. This severely compromised his stats with regards to Ehrhoff who excelled at 4on4. If there are other shortcomings in his approach, please let me know.
To be fair, the absurdly small sample size of 4-4 play in comparison to normal even strength play would likely have made those numbers suspect anyway.

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01-08-2010, 02:09 PM
  #44
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I think if given time he will improve that aspect of his game. Most NHL players don't reach their peak in terms of their body and using it well until they're 25-27 like Ehrhoff has been doing this year and last year. The problem that is easily fixable is his attitude when defending. He was brought up and told to play a contain game and that's how he plays in front. He's getting away from the contain defense and playing more aggressive and once his body matures, both will help him in front of the net. ... If people and especially management don't give these defensemen a good 3 or 4 years to develop through error their offensive game, they will either never develop it or will be moved to a team that will develop it. The talent is there but learning how to execute it consistently does not happen overnight and it doesn't happen within even a single season.

I agree completely. So many of us forget that with young players, even at the NHL level there is a lot of necessary learning and both physical and mental development that can only really take place in the "big show" -- especially for defensemen.

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01-08-2010, 02:27 PM
  #45
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To be fair, the absurdly small sample size of 4-4 play in comparison to normal even strength play would likely have made those numbers suspect anyway.
No problem regarding the issue of sample size, but it would be incorporated if he did an all-scenarios numbers. Desjardins also omits 3on5 and 5on3. In all of these cases, there is a good case to be made for publishing the numbers despite the sample size. In Ehrhoff's case, he stands out as we ran the numbers separately. I can also see it in his play in that scenario last year and this year. Additionally, Ehrhoff got significant 4on4 TOI which mitigates the sample size issue. 5on3 shows a big deficiency on the Sharks, not singling out any player.

Glad to have someone else who knows how to read it. I try to comprehend a specific stat before I post comments here.

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01-08-2010, 08:22 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by OneTooth View Post
Vlasic in a nutshell:

Offensive zone:
  • Shoots wide. All. The. Time. Not only does he not get the shot on net, it usually ends up rimming around and out of the zone. What's the best way to take pressure of the defenders? Give the puck to Vlasic.
  • Shoots into defenders because he doesn't move his feet to get a shooting lane.
  • Horrible passing in the offensive zone, usually because he's not moving his feet and/or just want to get the puck off his stick in a hurry.
  • Has only 10 points even though he's had tons of ice time on the PP. Kent Huskins has 14 points for crying out loud.
  • Bad at keeping the points sealed off in the offensive zone because he backs out way too early to make up for his lack of speed.

Defensive zone:
  • When he gets the puck, he almost immediately rims it around the boards, regardless if the other team has the points sealed off and/or there's room to skate with the puck. Most of the time it's picked off.
  • Lacks physicality. Usually just fishes for the puck in the corners and behind the net. Relies on stickwork too much.
Sure he's only 22, but he's making $3M+ and he's not worth it. He's not showing improvement for somebody that's only 22. If anything, he's regressed a little. He was very good his rookie season (for a rookie). Last season he absolutely sucked in the playoffs and this season he's pretty much the same. Not any faster. Not any stronger. And perhaps even a little more timid.

Ehrhoff, on the other hand, showed improvement every year and even developed a bit of grit last season. Both Ehrhoff and Lukowich were better than Vlasic in the playoffs last year and I'd rather have those two this year than Vlasic and Huskins. Add Blake to the list of people who should've been shown the door as well.
The bolded is a bunch of bs.

Did you really say that he has a "lack of speed" and that he isnt living up to his contract? Look at his carolina goal and say that again. He is easily our fastest defenseman and only Marleau, Setoguchi, Mitchell and Ortmeyer are faster.

Think... How much did Ehrhoff improve from when he was 22-25? Not much. Right now Vlasic is much better than Ehrhoff was at 25! Also how can you say Vlasics cheap contract is overpayment? He is already exeeding expectations of his contract and in a couple of years he will be on one of the best contracts in the NHL.

People make up this BS about how Vlasic cant improve because of his skillset and blah blah blah, but since when has a player had his peak at 22 years of age? Get real.

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01-08-2010, 09:26 PM
  #47
Herschel
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Originally Posted by ThorntonFan19 View Post
The bolded is a bunch of bs.

Did you really say that he has a "lack of speed" and that he isnt living up to his contract? Look at his carolina goal and say that again. He is easily our fastest defenseman and only Marleau, Setoguchi, Mitchell and Ortmeyer are faster.

Think... How much did Ehrhoff improve from when he was 22-25? Not much. Right now Vlasic is much better than Ehrhoff was at 25! Also how can you say Vlasics cheap contract is overpayment? He is already exeeding expectations of his contract and in a couple of years he will be on one of the best contracts in the NHL.

People make up this BS about how Vlasic cant improve because of his skillset and blah blah blah, but since when has a player had his peak at 22 years of age? Get real.
...x2

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01-08-2010, 09:58 PM
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OneTooth
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The bolded is a bunch of bs.
The Corsi rating that SJEasy posted pretty much backs up what I'm seeing.

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Did you really say that he has a "lack of speed" and that he isnt living up to his contract?
Pretty much, yeah.

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Look at his carolina goal and say that again. He is easily our fastest defenseman and only Marleau, Setoguchi, Mitchell and Ortmeyer are faster.
LOL. We'll just have to agree to disagree. I'd say Demers and Boyle smoke him.

Quote:
Think... How much did Ehrhoff improve from when he was 22-25? Not much. Right now Vlasic is much better than Ehrhoff was at 25!
Not sure why this matters. The Sharks are built to win now. Who cares if Vlasic could be good in 2, 3, 10 years? The bottom line is that in 2009-2010 Ehrhoff is the better Dman and will probably be so for a few more years. Not sure how many more years the Sharks have a shot at the Cup but they need talent now. And right now, I don't see how they can go very far in the playoffs with Blake, Vlasic and Huskins playing.

Quote:
Also how can you say Vlasics cheap contract is overpayment? He is already exeeding expectations of his contract and in a couple of years he will be on one of the best contracts in the NHL.
Again, we'll have to agree to disagree. He was a disaster in last year's playoffs. He isn't worth the money. And even if he is worth the money right now, his skillset isn't high enough for what the Sharks need now.

Quote:
People make up this BS about how Vlasic cant improve because of his skillset and blah blah blah, but since when has a player had his peak at 22 years of age? Get real.
Never said he couldn't improve. Just said that he hasn't shown improvement. Big difference.

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01-08-2010, 10:34 PM
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LOL. We'll just have to agree to disagree. I'd say Demers and Boyle smoke him.
But neither either are as good in the defensive zone and Demers two way play is barely at the NHL level, and no where near Pickles at 21.

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Originally Posted by OneTooth View Post
Not sure why this matters. The Sharks are built to win now. Who cares if Vlasic could be good in 2, 3, 10 years? Not sure how many more years the Sharks have a shot at the Cup but they need talent now. And right now, I don't see how they can go very far in the playoffs with Blake, Vlasic and Huskins playing.
First the Sharks arent a bad off long term as you might think. They have a core group of forwards signed for the next 3-5 years and a very smart GM who has shown that he is capable of making deals that keep his team in the mix.

As for Blake, Vlasic and Huskins (Boyle & Murray). How much better are Letang, Scuderi, Orpik, (Gill & Gonchar) ?

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Originally Posted by OneTooth View Post
The bottom line is that in 2009-2010 Ehrhoff is the better Dman and will probably be so for a few more years.
But after next season will be getting paid a lot more than Pickle (or very likely after this season since Vancouver will want to keep him since they were and would still be in need of a pucking moving Dman, something the Sharks arent as much in need of as long as they have Boyle

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01-08-2010, 10:46 PM
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But neither either are as good in the defensive zone and Demers two way play is barely at the NHL level, and no where near Pickles at 21.



First the Sharks arent a bad off long term as you might think. They have a core group of forwards signed for the next 3-5 years and a very smart GM who has shown that he is capable of making deals that keep his team in the mix.

As for Blake, Vlasic and Huskins (Boyle & Murray). How much better are Letang, Scuderi, Orpik, (Gill & Gonchar) ?



But after next season will be getting paid a lot more than Pickle (or very likely after this season since Vancouver will want to keep him since they were and would still be in need of a pucking moving Dman, something the Sharks arent as much in need of as long as they have Boyle
Vancouver has Edler for a puckmover in addition to Ehrhoff. They aren't that desperate. What is really astounding is Ehrhoff's offensive numbers because he is primarily second unit (qualteam for last 20 games or so). Ehrhoff is signed for both this year and next year.

Not for you, but what offends me is the trashing of Ehrhoff in favor of Pickles. What made him stand out for me was the compete factor which showed up in shotblocking and some non-statistical areas. I salute Vlasic for being more aggressive defensively this year, but that was something that Ehrhoff has had for a bit and still outstrips Vlasic by a mile. That shows up in teammates numbers if nothing other than Corsi. It absolutely offended me when Vlasic would dodge pucks when taking on his good defensive position in front of the net. He improved in that area last year and again this year. But it still speaks to his compete factor. Last year the two most aggressive shotblockers for the Sharks were Murray and Ehrhoff.

I also don't think Vlasic is close to Ehrhoff in speed although he is smooth and has some moves. There was a big difference in that speed and reaction when chasing down dumped pucks in the defensive zone, favoring Ehrhoff.

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