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Would Brodeur be a HOF Goalie Without the Devils?

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Old
01-08-2010, 05:36 PM
  #51
Fitzy
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Uhh, yes.

If you want an example of non-devils play, look at hsi international achievements. Brodeur won silver at the 1996 world championships and a gold at the 2002 olympics. He would most certainly be a hall-of-famer.

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01-08-2010, 05:37 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HBK27 View Post
1. Why don't other teams employ this magical system if it's so great?

2. How is Marty the odds on favorite to be Team Canada's starter for the 3rd straight Olympics, especially considering they continue to have the strongest goaltending of any nation?

3. Marty has won 65% of his games, while averaging more than 73 games a season for a 12 year stretch before being injured last year. You really think there are other goalies out there that would've improved upon that?
Because it pads his GAA and SOs. It's not necessarily the best strategy for winning with every team's roster. After the HOF defenseman left they stopped winning cups.

How do we have the strongest goaltending? The US has last year's Vezina winner and this year's Vezina favorite both on their team. Bryzgalov has been putting up numbers as good as Brodeur this year. And being the favorite to start for Canada's olympic team doesn't make you a HOFer. Most people wouldn't put Joseph in the hall of fame.

Winning's a team stat. The games started one is valid. Brodeur's got great endurance.

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01-08-2010, 05:38 PM
  #53
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If - and I say this with a complete belief that this IF is completely false - if Brodeur is a product of the system, then the rest of the NHL should be frustrated. Why is this? Because it means that there should be no drop-off, at all, when he retires. It means the Devils who have dominated the NHL since 1995 haven't done it because of one of the best goaltenders of all time, they've done it because of a magical, impossibly effective system that turns mediocre goaltenders into HoFers. What's worse for the rest of the NHL, they've managed to do it without another team in the NHL finding a way to imitate their system successfully or for a prolonged time - even Jacques Lemaire, the guy who "invented" said system.

What did Lou do, find a genie and make a wish? Make a *cough* deal with the devil?

I hope so. I hope Brodeur is mediocre. Why? Because that means when he retires, we'll still keep winning and winning and winning...

But I know better.

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01-08-2010, 05:38 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wario Lemieux View Post
The Devils pretty much invented the trap and have used it throughout the career of Brodeur, which in turn has led to a lot of success for him.
This alone has me questioning your knowledge of the game of hockey...

The Montreal Canadiens used a slightly modified version of the trap in the 1970's with Ken Dryden in net, winning six Cups in the process...

Now, isn't Dryden always one of the examples, along with Hasek, Roy, Sawchuk, Belfour, and Joseph (And those last two are ridiculous to compare to Brodeur, but people make that comparison, anyway.) of goalies who everyone argues to "better" than Marty?

I would assume so, yet people are continuously blinded by the fact that great goalies usually have great defense playing in front of them.

Oh, BTW, Marty got a 28-Save Shutout the other night... At 37 years old... Without our star defenseman playing in front of him... And has two shutouts against the "Crosby/Malkin Sexy-Time-Fun-Show."

Yeah, srsly.

And as mentioned by Fitzy, just look at the man's numbers in international play.

He's a Legend, and a great goaltender who plays/played for a great team... Just like Hasek, Roy, Sawchuk, Dryden, etc., etc., etc.

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01-08-2010, 05:41 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caps Lock View Post
I love MB and this isnt a stab at him Im just using this post to discuss the hypothetical...Insert and goalies name in there, Roy, Hasek etc and Im still curious.

This question has to many unknowns you wouldnt know if Marty's/Roy/Hasek confidence/drive would be if he was missing playoffs, underneath the microscope of media in toronto, playing for a small market team like florida. Those would all effect a players way of thinking which would effect their game which would effect their career stats.

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Old
01-08-2010, 05:41 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Richer's Ghost View Post
You being from san jose explains a lot of this... we should cut you slack because you obviously don't really know hockey nor the roots of the systems you are speculating about - but do yourself a favor and if you're going to propose a 'fact' to this board; make sure you get the players right to begin with - then maybe the actual system in use - then the time frame said systems were used.

How many Devils games have you ever watched over the past 10 years? the trap was long gone after Lemaire left and the 2000, 2001, and 2003 teams did not all use the same system to to reach the SCFs.

Perhaps you should go look up every cup winning team for the past 20 years and examine carefully some video of what style they play before you pose another hypothetical and then retort when the answers aren't what you like to hear. Defense first is the hallmark of good teams - PERIOD. If you don't like that then perhaps you should become an Atlanta fan.

buh bye
Implying that everybody from San Jose doesn't know anything about hockey.

I have never seen the Devils not play some form of trap and watch at least 10 of their games a season.

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01-08-2010, 05:42 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wario Lemieux View Post
Would Brodeur still be a HOF goalie if he spent his career playing on a run and gun team like Atlanta?
Better (rhetorical) question:

Would the Devils be flying three championship banners if they played Atlanta's system?

But make no mistake: Brodeur is a 16 year fraud, a product of the system.

And if only poor Luongo, Vokoun, Bryz, et al - HF's legion of perrrrrsecuted goalies - played on better teams. Please. Spare us. This inane meme was old a decade ago.

***

NJD's GM has stated repeatedly thoughout the years that NJD deploys a defense-first system PRECISELY because it possesses a goalie of Martin Brodeur's elite stature. Get it?

***

Suppose the answer to the question is "no," he would not be a HOF goalie playing behind Atlanta's system.

What's the ****ing point?!


Last edited by Trottier: 01-08-2010 at 05:47 PM.
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Old
01-08-2010, 05:42 PM
  #58
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Wow... As the years go by, this question gets ever more stupid.

I don't get it. I sit there thinking, "Wow. I'm watching the best there ever was." And others think he's a product of the trap. I don't get it. (Note: Please don't take offense, Roy supporters. I just have seen that much more Brodeur.)

The trap, for years, was the product of Brodeur and a mobile backline. Give Lou props for figuring out the system. But he did have the foundation in personnel first. It didn't come out of a vacuum. for pete's sake.

cheers,

Dan-o

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01-08-2010, 05:43 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Classic Devil View Post
If - and I say this with a complete belief that this IF is completely false - if Brodeur is a product of the system, then the rest of the NHL should be frustrated. Why is this? Because it means that there should be no drop-off, at all, when he retires. It means the Devils who have dominated the NHL since 1995 haven't done it because of one of the best goaltenders of all time, they've done it because of a magical, impossibly effective system that turns mediocre goaltenders into HoFers. What's worse for the rest of the NHL, they've managed to do it without another team in the NHL finding a way to imitate their system successfully or for a prolonged time - even Jacques Lemaire, the guy who "invented" said system.

What did Lou do, find a genie and make a wish? Make a *cough* deal with the devil?

I hope so. I hope Brodeur is mediocre. Why? Because that means when he retires, we'll still keep winning and winning and winning...
That's a wee bit of an overstatement, don't you think? They don't even have the most cups in that period.

Anyone who thinks Brodeur is a mediocre goaltender is just compensating for his alleged overratedness. That's ridiculous. I don't think anyone here is actually suggesting that. It's a question of whether the mix of the trap + one of the era's top few resulted in the mistake of calling him one of the best ever.

I don't think he has the records or is considered one of the best ever without the team advantages. He's still a great goalie and would probably still be going to the HOF.

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Old
01-08-2010, 05:43 PM
  #60
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The Devils would not have their 3 cups without him and these threads are ridiculous..

YEAR AFTER YEAR, different teams, different coaches and different systems since his career and he is still THE BEST. Fine they played a trap style, but what about the years when they didnt? Their defense is not one of the best int he league now anyway and how many shutouts does he have?

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01-08-2010, 05:43 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wario Lemieux View Post
Implying that everybody from San Jose doesn't know anything about hockey.

I have never seen the Devils not play some form of trap and watch at least 10 of their games a season.
Oh, you mean that trap they play when they're up by one with maybe two minutes left?

A.K.A. The "trap" almost every other team plays.

Sounds about right.

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01-08-2010, 05:44 PM
  #62
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Brodeur

Here's another hilarious thread started last year by Wario Lemieux (aka Ultimate Destroyer).

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=583893

Quote:
Originally Posted by Derick View Post
I'd like to know where you learned that from.

And they tried harder because Clemmensen was there? Really?

The whole concept of "clutch saves" makes no sense at all. It's not like goal scoring, which comes in isolated incidents. Every goalie faces 20+ shots per night, and three quarters of the game is spent with the score tied or within one. Almost any save can be called a clutch save.
When Brodeur went down last year, Devils had to score more goals to win. Last year, they could score with anybody in the league including the sharks. Here's a post from a Devils fan last year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunnar Stahl 30
i will look this stat up but you should have seen his record last year when they scored 3 or more. it was something ridiculous

thats most of the way through thte seaon from last year. if you really think the stats would be the same with any other goalie you have another thing coming

when scoring 2 goals or less we are 5-21-4

when scoring 3 goals or more we are 33-2-2

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01-08-2010, 05:44 PM
  #63
kyle evs48
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The Devils didn't "invent" the trap.

Bowman taught it to Lemaire.

Yes, Brodeur would be a Hall of Fame goaltender without the Devils.

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01-08-2010, 05:44 PM
  #64
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Man, what's with the Jersey bashing? I have seen more threads that are anti-Devils than Pro-Peverly.

Brodeur did his job best, with the Devils. The team that drafted him. He's a Hall-of-Famer because of what he's done as a goalie, part of a team. He's kept the Devils in games that they didn't even belong in with the other team.

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01-08-2010, 05:44 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Classic Devil View Post
We took away those players. He had his best statistical seasons, his Vezina seasons, with the least the Devils ever gave him. 05-06 all he had was Brian Rafalski, Paul Martin and Colin White, and it wasn't like they were in their prime - Martin was still developing, and Rafalski has never been an elite defensive defenseman. Sean Brown, Richard Matvichuk, Vladimir Malakhov, Ken Klee, Dan McGillis, Brad Lukowich, David Hale... have you any idea of what you're talking about?

People made the argument that Brodeur was nothing without Stevens and Niedermayer - well guess what? They're GONE and he only got better.

It's unbelievable the lengths people go to detract Brodeur's career, and truthfully I really don't understand it. Why do people care so much? What is it about Brodeur that people find threatening enough that they spend hours and hours trying to find reasons to diminish his accomplishments?
Well, I'm a Rangers fan...

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01-08-2010, 05:44 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Trottier View Post
Better (rhetorical) question:

Would the Devils be flying three championship banners if they played Atlanta's system?

But make no mistake: Brodeur is a 16 year fraud, a product of the system.

***

NJD's GM has stated repeatedly thoughout the years that NJD deploys a defense-first system PRECISELY because it possesses a goalie of Martin Brodeur's elite stature. Get it?

***

Suppose the answer to the question is "no," he would not be a HOF goalie playing behind Atlanta's system.

What's the ****ing point?!
Discussion.

Is the point of boards that connect people to talk about things.

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01-08-2010, 05:45 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wario Lemieux View Post
Implying that everybody from San Jose doesn't know anything about hockey.

I have never seen the Devils not play some form of trap and watch at least 10 of their games a season.
Then, frankly, you weren't paying attention while Sutter was our coach.

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01-08-2010, 05:45 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wario Lemieux View Post
The Devils pretty much invented the trap and have used it throughout the career of Brodeur, which in turn has led to a lot of success for him.

For example, Roloson, Fernandez, and now Backstrom have faded without the defensive system Lemaire employed in Minnesota. Would Brodeur still be a HOF goalie if he spent his career playing on a run and gun team like Atlanta?
I know everyone thinks the Isles don't deserve a team and all, but have you even watched Roloson play this season? How about that year where he led Edmonton to the Cup Finals after leaving Minnesota?

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Old
01-08-2010, 05:45 PM
  #69
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Oh, and isn't Marty about to beat (He actually already might have.) the record that many of the haters like to bring up... The Most "Non-Shootout" Victories?

Oh ya he is.

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01-08-2010, 05:47 PM
  #70
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Of course, Brodeur would have been a HOF goalie if he hadn't played on the Devils. Players with his talent level shine no matter where they play.

Would he have the records he does had he not played on the Devils? Probably not. The Devils in their heyday had a perfect storm-esque combination of a defensive system, committed two-way forwards, and an excellent core of defensemen. In short, all the elements necessary for an elite goaltender to maximize his talent.

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01-08-2010, 05:48 PM
  #71
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Did anyone really ever use the shootout as an arguement?

That thing about scoring three or more is interesting. Would it be easy to get those stats for other teams on hand?

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01-08-2010, 05:49 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Classic Devil View Post
Then, frankly, you weren't paying attention while Sutter was our coach.
Oh no I remember. Weren't they really fast on the transition that year, it was like two seasons ago. i remember because it looked so different at the beginning, but I am pretty sure they trapped once the got the lead. I remember it looking a bit different from traditional Devils hockey.

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01-08-2010, 05:49 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Flicktron View Post
Man, what's with the Jersey bashing? I have seen more threads that are anti-Devils than Pro-Peverly.
Half-way though the season, they are the best team in the East.

With success, comes the pettiness of some opposing fans. Hence the diversions.

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01-08-2010, 05:50 PM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wario Lemieux View Post
Oh no I remember. Weren't they really fast on the transition that year, it was like two seasons ago. i remember because it looked so different at the beginning, but I am pretty sure they trapped once the got the lead. I remember it looking a bit different from traditional Devils hockey.
"Pretty sure?"

I watched EVERY game.

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01-08-2010, 05:50 PM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wario Lemieux View Post
I have never seen the Devils not play some form of trap and watch at least 10 of their games a season.
This has me questioning if you know what the trap is. The Devils do not play the neutral zone trap as their primary defensive system the way they did in the 90s during Lemaire's first stint with the team. The post lockout rules changes have rendered that strategy largely ineffective.

With this year's Devils, Lemaire runs a very adaptable defence. When the opponent's star forward is on the ice, he matches a defensive forward (usually Langenbrunner or Pandolfo) against him to shut him down. At other times, the Devils have both wingers (or even sometimes all three forwards) forechecking deep in the offensive zone to create turnovers. The only time I ever see the NZT come out is when the team is sitting on a late lead, but pretty much every other team in the league (with the exception of Atlanta and Washington) does the same thing.

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