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01-12-2010, 04:46 PM
  #1
tilson23
 
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Phx - Pit

Try not to get too upset/crucify me for this proposal, I'm curious as to how you would feel about this:

To PHX:
Jordan Staal
+


To PIT:
Martin Hanzal
Peter Mueller


PITs gains a cheaper version of Jordan Staal with less offensive upside in Hanzal. Staal is 4mil per year and for a team with huge centre depth that forces him to be a 3rd liner, that's a lot of money. Hanzal could fill that roll nicer and cheaper. Mueller (while the 'yotes have patience with him) could solve the winger problem on a team like PITs, playing with Crosby or Malkin could give him the confidence he needs to break out.

PHX gains a defensively responsible centre with good offensive upside that has been underused in PIT. He could easily slot into any line in the top 9 and play effectively. With Robert Lang being 39, his retirement must be imminent.

I still think PITs would have to add something else to this deal though to make it perfectly even.

Let me know what you think.

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01-12-2010, 04:53 PM
  #2
AnalogMan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tilson23 View Post
Try not to get too upset/crucify me for this proposal, I'm curious as to how you would feel about this:

To PHX:
Jordan Staal
+


To PIT:
Martin Hanzal
Peter Mueller


PITs gains a cheaper version of Jordan Staal with less offensive upside in Hanzal. Staal is 4mil per year and for a team with huge centre depth that forces him to be a 3rd liner, that's a lot of money. Hanzal could fill that roll nicer and cheaper. Mueller (while the 'yotes have patience with him) could solve the winger problem on a team like PITs, playing with Crosby or Malkin could give him the confidence he needs to break out.

PHX gains a defensively responsible centre with good offensive upside that has been underused in PIT. He could easily slot into any line in the top 9 and play effectively. With Robert Lang being 39, his retirement must be imminent.

I still think PITs would have to add something else to this deal though to make it perfectly even.

Let me know what you think.
Hanzal is developing into one of the best shutdown centers in the NHL, so don't see Coyotes moving him. In a division with Thornton, Kopitar and Getzlaf he's simply too valuable. And it is yet to be seen if his offense will catch up with his defense.

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01-12-2010, 04:55 PM
  #3
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Hanzal is one of my favorite players (I have an extensive hockey card collection of his too), so I agree with you on the assessment. But, Jordan Staal is also an excellent shutdown centre and has developed and offensive touch to go with it.

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01-12-2010, 05:02 PM
  #4
indczn
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The difference between the two players is minimal imo. Sure staal is younger, and a bit better goal scorer. Pittsburgh's motivation is salary dump. You aren't getting Mueller as a toss in. You get the capspace. Even then, I'm not sure the coyotes swap hanzal for staal, and break up the Czech line.

Resigning Hanzal next year won't cost as much as Staal got.

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01-12-2010, 05:04 PM
  #5
AnalogMan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tilson23 View Post
Hanzal is one of my favorite players (I have an extensive hockey card collection of his too), so I agree with you on the assessment. But, Jordan Staal is also an excellent shutdown centre and has developed and offensive touch to go with it.
But Hanzal is better on D right now. And Hanzal may develop into a 40-50 point center. And for a budget-conscious team like the Coyotes the deal simply makes no sense when Hanzal will make <$4M per in the next 3 years.

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01-12-2010, 05:06 PM
  #6
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Originally Posted by indczn View Post
The difference between the two players is minimal imo. Sure staal is younger, and a bit better goal scorer. Pittsburgh's motivation is salary dump. You aren't getting Mueller as a toss in. You get the capspace. Even then, I'm not sure the coyotes swap hanzal for staal, and break up the Czech line.

Resigning Hanzal next year won't cost as much as Staal got.
^^^^^^^^^^^

Exactly.

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01-12-2010, 05:08 PM
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by indczn View Post
The difference between the two players is minimal imo. Sure staal is younger, and a bit better goal scorer. Pittsburgh's motivation is salary dump. You aren't getting Mueller as a toss in. You get the capspace. Even then, I'm not sure the coyotes swap hanzal for staal, and break up the Czech line.

Resigning Hanzal next year won't cost as much as Staal got.
I doubt that Hanzal will get 4mil per year either. As much as I love Hanzal, I do believe Staal is still a slightly better player (offensively) and very similar defensively (not quite as good). You throw Mueller in to level the playing field (with the Yotes adding a bit more) and then you get a + from the Pens to equal it out.

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01-12-2010, 05:10 PM
  #8
yakko
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I'm a big fan of Staal, but I wouldn't trade Hanzal for him.

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01-12-2010, 05:18 PM
  #9
indczn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tilson23 View Post
I doubt that Hanzal will get 4mil per year either. As much as I love Hanzal, I do believe Staal is still a slightly better player (offensively) and very similar defensively (not quite as good). You throw Mueller in to level the playing field (with the Yotes adding a bit more) and then you get a + from the Pens to equal it out.
No, you don't "throw" Mueller in to compensate. The pens get 2 mil-ish cap space. That is the equalizer.

I know you won't accept that, and thats fine, but salary management is huge, as you should know with your winger situation, and its amplified for a salary floor team.

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01-12-2010, 05:22 PM
  #10
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I'm not a Pens fan or a Coyotes fan; if anything I like the Yotes more. I can understand the idea of freeing up cap space, especially for a team that lacks wing depth (like the Pens). I would be interested to see if Pens fans would be incredibly hesitant to give up Staal though, saying that he is worth more than Hanzal. It's tough to create trades that make both teams happy.

Imagine removing Hanzal from the trade and focus on improving the Pens wing depth leaving the Yotes with Staal and Hanzal as centres...

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01-12-2010, 05:23 PM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tilson23 View Post
I doubt that Hanzal will get 4mil per year either. As much as I love Hanzal, I do believe Staal is still a slightly better player (offensively) and very similar defensively (not quite as good). You throw Mueller in to level the playing field (with the Yotes adding a bit more) and then you get a + from the Pens to equal it out.
The problem is that Hanzal at $1M is better value than Staal is at $4M. It doesnt make sense for the Coyotes to get a high priced player by trading a cheaper version. They can keep Hanzal and use that $3M to sign a 20 goal man instead.

The onus is on Pittsburgh to give Phoenix a reason to take on that extra salary.. not on Phoenix to throw in Mueller.

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01-12-2010, 05:26 PM
  #12
AnalogMan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tilson23 View Post
I doubt that Hanzal will get 4mil per year either. As much as I love Hanzal, I do believe Staal is still a slightly better player (offensively) and very similar defensively (not quite as good). You throw Mueller in to level the playing field (with the Yotes adding a bit more) and then you get a + from the Pens to equal it out.
Mueller >>> gap between Staal and Hanzal. Even straight up, not happening.

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01-12-2010, 05:39 PM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tilson23 View Post
I'm not a Pens fan or a Coyotes fan; if anything I like the Yotes more. I can understand the idea of freeing up cap space, especially for a team that lacks wing depth (like the Pens). I would be interested to see if Pens fans would be incredibly hesitant to give up Staal though, saying that he is worth more than Hanzal. It's tough to create trades that make both teams happy.

Imagine removing Hanzal from the trade and focus on improving the Pens wing depth leaving the Yotes with Staal and Hanzal as centres...
Pittsburgh won a cup with malkin/crosby/staal down the middle. They most likely won't willingly swap staal for hanzal, and I wouldn't even second guess that. You're asking teams to swap 2 very similar players.

Staal is better on Pitt because he carries his line. He's going to score no matter who you put on his wing, like his brother. He's a bit to selfish of a player, but that isn't an issue on a team with no winger depth. 3 defensive grinder together, and staal will put up the same, while his wingers lag behind.

Hanzal is better on the coyotes, because hes cheaper, and we have wingers he can play with. Hes a decent setup guy, and Vrbata is producing because Hanzal gives him so much room. That whole line is producing 45-50 pt 2nd line pace, playing a shutdown role.

Both teams are doing well, theres not much reason for either to swap, let alone one to toss in a "mueller"

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01-12-2010, 05:51 PM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by indczn View Post
Pittsburgh won a cup with malkin/crosby/staal down the middle. They most likely won't willingly swap staal for hanzal, and I wouldn't even second guess that. You're asking teams to swap 2 very similar players.

Staal is better on Pitt because he carries his line. He's going to score no matter who you put on his wing, like his brother. He's a bit to selfish of a player, but that isn't an issue on a team with no winger depth. 3 defensive grinder together, and staal will put up the same, while his wingers lag behind.

Hanzal is better on the coyotes, because hes cheaper, and we have wingers he can play with. Hes a decent setup guy, and Vrbata is producing because Hanzal gives him so much room. That whole line is producing 45-50 pt 2nd line pace, playing a shutdown role.

Both teams are doing well, theres not much reason for either to swap, let alone one to toss in a "mueller"
Gret post, indczn.

Like many have said, Hanzal is far more valuable to this team at 1 M then Staal (who are very comparable) at 4 M

The "throw in" Mueller term was used a bit loosley. Mueller is just as valuable as Hanzal is, it just hasnt shown yet. Any team in this league, and I dont care who they are would kill for a player like Hanzal, which means hes not going anywhere.

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01-12-2010, 05:58 PM
  #15
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It's scary to think about what Mueller could do playing with the 2 best centers in the game. Hanzal would easily replace what Staal brings to the table for the Penguins. No trade. It's not a very good trade in the least, we both need the same thing.

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01-12-2010, 05:59 PM
  #16
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I'll echo the other comments in this thread. I don't think Hanzal for Staal makes a whole lot of sense, and adding Mueller makes the whole thing completely out of the question.

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01-12-2010, 06:06 PM
  #17
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Ill say something different.

We need scoring, a top 6 forward and a marketable player.
Crosby or Malkin would be more of what we need.
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01-12-2010, 07:08 PM
  #18
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Ill say something different.

We need scoring, a top 6 forward and a marketable player.
Crosby or Malkin would be more of what we need.
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Good luck with that!

As for the original proposal, I'll admit that Staal is the superior player, but acquiring him isn't worth the additional cost of Mueller. J.Staal isn't the No. 1 centre we covet (similar skill set to Lombardi IMO), so thanks but no thanks. He is an excellent penalty killer and Selke candidate, but our area of concern is offence.

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01-12-2010, 07:17 PM
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this deal would be too sideways and at this moment chemistry is more important than a sideways deal, and with Mueller involved???
but I would like Staal and keep Hanzal...
a Upshall - Staal - Doan line would be awesome, IMO
maybe in the off-season but not right now...

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01-12-2010, 07:28 PM
  #20
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It's certainly a proposal that merits discussion.

I don't get the sense from the Penguins that this is the type of maneuver that they would make but I could be wrong. I just think that if the Pens were going to move Staal that they would go after something flashier in the terms of a more established scorer or someone who could be a fixture on their defense for years to come.

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01-13-2010, 01:01 AM
  #21
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I like this deal. Staal is everything Hanzal is plus a scoring touch. then Mueller really isnt showing me much still.

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01-13-2010, 01:15 AM
  #22
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I like this deal. Staal is everything Hanzal is plus a scoring touch. then Mueller really isnt showing me much still.
Staal easily has the better scoring touch and is a remarkably good defensive player. Hanzal has better vision and better passing skills. Their defensive positioning may be too close to call but Hanzal is far better at shadowing a player to the point of frustrating them off of their game.

It's a close call on talent. Once you factor in salary though, it's a tough trade to make if you are the Coyotes.

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01-13-2010, 08:59 AM
  #23
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In the salary cap world it would be pretty even trading Hanzal for Staal straight up. No way would Phoenix add Mueller unless the + from Pittsburgh was significant - like Tangradi.

I wold be very interested in Phoenix going after Staal. I think he would be an excellent fit on this team. But in addition to Hanzal not instead of Hanzal.

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01-14-2010, 02:08 AM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by indczn View Post
The difference between the two players is minimal imo. Sure staal is younger, and a bit better goal scorer. Pittsburgh's motivation is salary dump. You aren't getting Mueller as a toss in. You get the capspace. Even then, I'm not sure the coyotes swap hanzal for staal, and break up the Czech line.

Resigning Hanzal next year won't cost as much as Staal got.
MAybe straight up if we do a deal and get Eric from the Canes.. then we would have 3 Staals

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01-14-2010, 02:21 AM
  #25
yakko
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MAybe straight up if we do a deal and get Eric from the Canes.. then we would have 3 Staals
Why stop at 3? Let's trade Michalek to the Rangers for Marc!

I say that as a joke, but the connections make me scared all of the sudden. That'll never happen.

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