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Defensemen who are/were products of their partners

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Old
01-13-2010, 07:21 PM
  #26
seventieslord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier View Post
The insufferable "leech!" meme, popularized on HF, is now applied to defensemen.

And when a few of us suggest playing the game to garner a better appreciation of it - and to avoid such silly theories - we are ripped for having an elitist attitude. No, we're simply trying to help others avoid such nonsense.
I play the game, and looking better next to a great defense parter is absolutely real. Are you saying it's not?

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Old
01-13-2010, 07:22 PM
  #27
El Diego
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier View Post
The insufferable "leech!" meme, popularized on HF, is now applied to defensemen.

And when a few of us suggest playing the game to garner a better appreciation of it - and to avoid such silly theories - we are ripped for having an elitist attitude. No, we're simply trying to help others avoid such nonsense.
I'm not saying these guys are leeches, what I'm saying is that there are players who have played with guys who are so good that they look better than they really are. And this isn't just a fan thing, GMs can fall into this trap.

Anyway, we are all naming guys who looked good in the past and now are being shown to be not as good as once thought. How about CURRENT guys, guys who have a good reputation but you think with a mediocre partner would look much worse.

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Old
01-13-2010, 07:24 PM
  #28
leafsfuture
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Lets be clear, Mike Komisarek never looked like a 5 million dollar defensemen. His All-Star birth was clearly because of the fans.

Beauchemin was carried by Nieder a bit, but I still hold that he is a top 4 defensemen in this league. He is solid on D, and has a great cross ice pass

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Old
01-13-2010, 07:34 PM
  #29
Ohashi_Jouzu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I play the game, and looking better next to a great defense parter is absolutely real. Are you saying it's not?
Totally agree. That doesn't mean I agree with the levels of exaggeration some try very hard to achieve, but there are some valid examples so far.

I also play the game. Was never good enough to make Junior A (highest I played was Midget AA, and wasn't interested in Junior B... plus while away at university I was learning how to cope with being sober for very minimal portions of any given day, lol), but those of my friends who ended up playing in the Q and university never hesitated to call me for pick up games or recruit me for the odd beer league - probably at least in part because my simple, safer level of defense allows them to have more fun. I was usually one of the worst guys on the teams, but you wouldn't have known it looking at my "stats", etc.

The pro level is obviously a different beast, but I refuse to believe that the effect isn't at least sometimes tangible/observable let alone completely disappears.

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Old
01-13-2010, 07:36 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamal007 View Post
For mike van ryn, a product of the health system.
I love a man (or woman, not that there's anything wrong with that) with a good sense of humor.

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Old
01-13-2010, 07:38 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhodes77 View Post
I've watched Henrik Tallinder play for years and he is a completely different player now that he is paired with Tyler Myers.
Funny that's actually the first person I thought of when I saw this thread. I doubt he'd be having anywhere near the comeback season he's having this yr. if it weren't for Myers.

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Old
01-13-2010, 07:42 PM
  #32
bigwillie
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M.E. Vlasic looked a lot better last year before Rob Blake took a **** and died.

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Old
01-13-2010, 07:47 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teemu View Post
Suffice to say, Seabrook is not an Olympian if not for Keith
I thought the same thing.

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Old
01-13-2010, 08:01 PM
  #34
Trottier
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I play the game, and looking better next to a great defense parter is absolutely real. Are you saying it's not?
You still have to cover your half of the ice.
You still have to win the board battles.
You still have to be able to stand up fast, onrushing skaters.
You still must be able make the correct reads.
You still must be able to not cough up the puck (the dreaded "puck poise" cliche), and make the crisp, correct outlet pass.
And so on.

My point: you can have Lidstrom as your D partner and if you suck, you will not be a "product," as teams will EXPLOIT you. Of course, if you are a good player, you will exploit (benefit from) the skills of your talented D partner. (Which, around here, diminishes a player's value. ) And if you are inferior, Lidstrom will spend an inordinate amount of time/energy covering your ass, to the overall detriment of the team.

Ultimately, you cannot hide out on the ice. A good partner obviously helps. "Products of..."? No.


Last edited by Trottier: 01-13-2010 at 08:09 PM.
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Old
01-13-2010, 08:11 PM
  #35
El Diego
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier View Post
You still have to cover your half of the ice.
You still have to win the board battles.
You still have to be able to stand up fast, onrushing skaters.
You still must be able make the correct reads.
You still must be able to not cough up the puck (the dreaded "puck poise" cliche), and make the crisp, correct outlet pass.
And so on.

My point: you can have Lidstrom as your D partner and if you suck, you will not be a "product," as teams will EXPLOIT you. Of course, if you are a good player, you will exploit (benefit from) the skills of your talented D partner. (Which, around here, diminishes a player's value. ) And if you are inferior, Lidstrom will spend an inordinate amount of time/energy covering your ass, to the overall detriment of the team.

Ultimately, you cannot hide out on the ice. A good partner obviously helps. "Products of..."? No.
So you would say Komisarek's contract is not a product of Markov? Because I think the term 'a product' is perfect for that situation.

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Old
01-13-2010, 08:13 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teemu View Post
Suffice to say, Seabrook is not an Olympian if not for Keith
I disagree with this one. Seabrook is just as good as Keith imo.

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Old
01-13-2010, 08:27 PM
  #37
Trottier
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El Diego View Post
So you would say Komisarek's contract is not a product of Markov? Because I think the term 'a product' is perfect for that situation.
If "by product," you mean that Komisarek was negligent in the areas I listed above and that it was simply a matter of Markov covering defensive responsibilities across the width of the rink, no I do not agree.

And frankly, I trust Brian Burke's judgement as well. In the case of Komisarek, I always felt he was a somewhat overrated player, Markov or not. But the going rate for big UFA Dmen in their mid-20s - assuming they can stand upright and breath - i$ high. Often ridiculously high.

No doubt, he benefitted from having a very solid partner in Montreal. But it's not nearly as black and white as implied. And frankly (not directed at you) we often go to great lengths around here to diminish players, constantly. And in the process, dumb down things to the extreme.

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Old
01-13-2010, 08:34 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier View Post
If "by product," you mean that Komisarek was negligent in the areas I listed above and that it was simply a matter of Markov covering defensive responsibilities across the width of the rink, no I do not agree.

And frankly, I trust Brian Burke's judgement as well. In the case of Komisarek, I always felt he was a somewhat overrated player, Markov or not. But the going rate for big UFA Dmen in their mid-20s - assuming they can stand upright and breath i$ high. Often ridiculously high.

No doubt, he benefitted from having a very solid partner in Montreal. But it's not nearly as black and white as inmplied. And frankly (not directed at you) we go to great lengths around here to diminsh players, constantly. And in the process, dumb down things to the extreme.
In fairness though, the OP could very well be suggesting that some players are more "products" of their partners than others, to the point that it might be interesting to attempt to isolate a few for the purpose of discussion.

Your logical contention that no NHLer is completely, 100% the "product" of any one player doesn't preclude what I submit is an obvious and valid point, and you should try to discuss the magnitude of the impact from case to case instead of trying to completely dismiss it in all cases and berating anyone who wants to give it a shot.

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Old
01-13-2010, 08:39 PM
  #39
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Ward looked like a decent D-man with Chara last year. Now that he is back with the Canes and not paired with a d-man like Chara he looks like the horrible defender he truly is.

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Old
01-13-2010, 08:43 PM
  #40
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Barret Jackman won the Calder on the strength of Al Macinnis' play.

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Old
01-13-2010, 08:46 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
...you should try to discuss the magnitude of the impact from case to case instead of trying to completely dismiss it in all cases and berating anyone who wants to give it a shot.
I'm berating no one. I'm challenging overly-simple cliches.

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Old
01-13-2010, 08:55 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreaBargnani View Post
I disagree with this one. Seabrook is just as good as Keith imo.
A bit of an overstatement but Seabrook deserves to be on the team. He has been great this year.

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Old
01-13-2010, 08:58 PM
  #43
Ohashi_Jouzu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier View Post
I'm berating no one. I'm challenging overly-simple cliches.
By seemingly attempting to discredit the validity of anyone's attempt ("here at HF") to carry on this discussion at any level, yes. Maybe berating is too strong a word, but imo doing that by way of imposing an opinion on a subject they way you did isn't very different.

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Old
01-13-2010, 09:01 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreaBargnani View Post
I disagree with this one. Seabrook is just as good as Keith imo.
I agree

Seabrook was the #1 dman on Hawks the moment he stepped on the ice his rookie season

Best dman we had for 3 years until Keith got up to his level

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Old
01-13-2010, 09:03 PM
  #45
Trottier
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
By seemingly attempting to...
I'll happily address with you via PM. No need to waste bandwidth here.

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Old
01-13-2010, 09:13 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leafsfuture View Post
Lets be clear, Mike Komisarek never looked like a 5 million dollar defensemen. His All-Star birth was clearly because of the fans.

Beauchemin was carried by Nieder a bit, but I still hold that he is a top 4 defensemen in this league. He is solid on D, and has a great cross ice pass
in 07-08' Komisarek was fantastic.

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Old
01-13-2010, 09:35 PM
  #47
Claimed Off Waivers
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Roman Hamrlik really helped Dion Phaneuf when he was in Calgary.

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Old
01-13-2010, 09:37 PM
  #48
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Seabrook and Keith will pretty much always be linked together, probably more Seabrook being a product of Keith currently, which I don't agree with at all. Both would be equally as effective and valuable playing with other partners. It's not like Seabrook all of a sudden just disappeared those few games Keith went down last season. You could also argue he was their best defenseman in last year's playoffs. I thought the last month or so of the regular season through the playoffs Seabrook stepped up huge and took his game to another level. If I had to pick between the two I'd probably still take Keith, but I think they're both the caliber of defenseman they are because of their individual talents and abilities, not being a product of one another as a d-pair.

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Old
01-13-2010, 09:53 PM
  #49
WJG
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I'm surprised no one has mentioned Redden, when he was paired with Chara.

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Old
01-13-2010, 09:53 PM
  #50
shortshorts
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Komiserik (sp) and Beauchemin

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