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Defensemen who are/were products of their partners

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Old
01-13-2010, 10:55 PM
  #51
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Pronger being a ***** to the oilers is a product of his wife

...I think I may have missunderstood this thread

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01-13-2010, 11:03 PM
  #52
Ohashi_Jouzu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NIDAS View Post
Pronger being a ***** to the oilers is a product of his wife

...I think I may have missunderstood this thread
Haha, not at all. My name is Ohashi_Jouzu, and I completely endorse this message.

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Old
01-13-2010, 11:16 PM
  #53
MatthewT
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not a partner and not sure if its been mentioned, but in 06-07 Tom Preissing with Ottawa had a +/- of like 42, but it was clearly a case of playing behind CASH

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Old
01-13-2010, 11:29 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
By seemingly attempting to discredit the validity of anyone's attempt ("here at HF") to carry on this discussion at any level, yes. Maybe berating is too strong a word, but imo doing that by way of imposing an opinion on a subject they way you did isn't very different.
Not quite strong enough. Doesn't take much for Trots to come galloping in on his stilt-enhanced clydesdale to scoff at the riff-raff disparaging his imagined ideals of what the game is or is not (or was or was not).

And don't forget this --> Can never have too many of those...

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Old
01-14-2010, 12:01 AM
  #55
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This talk of Komisarek being a product of Markov is totally exaggerated, and spreading like wildfire cause it's plain satisfying to bash the Leafs (which I admit to).

Neither were products of the other; they just happen to complement each other real well on the ice. Does Komisarek play better alongside Markov? Can't really argue with the evidence, but he also brought a brand of hockey to the pairing that few could.

The 07-08 version of Mike Komisarek was solid in his own zone, decently mobile, actually could make some crisp passes to forwards, and above all else, absolutely mean. The guy brought a level of intimidation that kinda reminded me of Derian Hatcher in Dallas. Unlike now, he had the respect of his opponents out there then; forwards had to watch out along his side of the boards or else they were gonna get decked. And before what Lucic did to him, he could back it up, and did so from time to time.

I dunno why a lot of Habs fans rag on Yvon Pedneault, our former and longtime commentator, but the guy actually used to point out interesting stuff from time to time. One thing I will never forget about Komisarek is one missed play by Jeff Carter. Carter was coming into the Habs zone on Komi's side, dragged the puck back, waited, and then just lost control of it. Seemed like a random miscue on the ice, until Pedneault pointed out that Carter had to keep his head up because of Komisarek. Now tell me that did not contribute to the pairing, or make Markov's job easier.

So what happened to that version of big #8? Milan Lucic is your answer. After getting pummeled, Komi just suddenly couldn't back his aggressive style of play anymore, became cheaper, and lost that intimidation factor (that was imo his greatest strength and the reason he got 4.5M). Doesn't help that he was prolly injured when he came back, and his play suffered. It would have been nice had the Habs kept one of Rivet or Souray to mentor the guy, but they didn't. Presently, he's more annoying than intimidating, and just lets Kaberle do all the puck-moving. This is not the 07-08 version of Mike Komisarek, Markov or no Markov.

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Old
01-14-2010, 12:13 AM
  #56
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To be fair, the 07-08 Habs team were all playing amazing and Komisarek was having a career year. I still think Komi is a decent no4 but he is nowhere near his 07-08 level or near a top 2 dman.

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Old
01-14-2010, 12:16 AM
  #57
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matt carle has benefited pretty well from pronger being his partner this season... i'm not a fan of carle, but am a fan of the flyers

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Old
01-14-2010, 12:18 AM
  #58
around van impe x5
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Chris Pronger with Al MacInnis

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Old
01-14-2010, 12:26 AM
  #59
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Matt freakin' Niskanen (Zubov).

Now, partnering with Zubov was a notoriously difficult thing, so Niskanen was unique in that respect. But Zubov was an extremely heady player, and he rarely put Niskanen in an area where his weaknesses (particularly one-on-one defending or in front of the net). Niskanen had a fantastic first half of a rookie year while paired with Zubov.

Then Zubov got hurt, then got hurt again, then left for Russia when no NHL team would sign him to a two-year deal after 18 months of injuries. Without Zubov, Niskanen has looked lost and has now lost his confidence. He's turned into a player many Stars fans are ready to give up on when he looked like a potential No. 2 guy playing with Zubov.

Now, some of that is a simple matter of lost confidence (that may have happened with Zubov still playing, perhaps), and some of it is teams learning to exploit weaknesses after getting a chance to scout him. But a ton of it was the Zubov and Niskanen absolutely suited each other, and Zubov was an extremely heady player who was able to keep his younger, slightly spazzier partner backed up and out of the most dangerous situations.

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Old
01-14-2010, 12:30 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by norrisnick View Post
Not quite strong enough. Doesn't take much for Trots to come galloping in on his stilt-enhanced clydesdale to scoff at the riff-raff disparaging his imagined ideals of what the game is or is not (or was or was not).

And don't forget this --> Can never have too many of those...
Totally agree, about time something was said

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Old
01-14-2010, 12:36 AM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ishdul View Post
Karel Rachunek when he was paired with Wade Redden sort of fits the bill.



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Old
01-14-2010, 12:46 AM
  #62
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Whoever plays with Markov it has seemed.

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Old
01-14-2010, 01:12 AM
  #63
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Marc-Eduard Vlasic is a product of Rob Blake. He's becoming Mike Green. Sadly, I am referring to his defensive play only.

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Old
01-14-2010, 01:20 AM
  #64
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Mezaros when he was paired with Chara. Ever since Chara left he was terrible. Can't really speak for how he's been in Tampa but I don't think he's been that good.

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Old
01-14-2010, 01:40 AM
  #65
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Chris Therien was the definition of this, unless he was covering Jagr

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Old
01-14-2010, 04:02 AM
  #66
Trottier
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Quote:
Originally Posted by norrisnick View Post
Doesn't take much for Trots to come galloping in on his stilt-enhanced clydesdale to scoff at the riff-raff.
Excellent self-assessment!

(Your words, not mine.)

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Old
01-14-2010, 08:17 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Hipster Doofus View Post
Adrian Aucoin. Nominated for the Norris, finished 3rd or 4th in voting with Kenny Johnson. Really, anyone who has played KJ had their play raised exponentially.
Kenny Johnson? An unknown NA-version of Kenny Jönsson?

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Old
01-14-2010, 08:51 AM
  #68
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See here's the point I was trying to make, and it's not a Komisarek bashing thread or anything, he's just the example I happened to run with. when you talk about Keith-Seabrook, those guys compliment each other greatly, but if I was to break them up and give them each a different partner, no matter what partner really, you would watch them and still see they are high quality defensemen, both of them. Now, you watch a pairing like Chara-Meszaros in Ottawa (one that has been mentioned and one that I thought of as well actually) and you think to yourself, this Meszaros rookie, he's gonna be REALLY good. This is what I thought when I watched him, but afterwards it became apparent that Meszaros, although definitely NHL material with potential, still had some serious flaws in his game that you didn't notice as much with a great partner. However Chara maintains his level of play no matter who he is with, you won't notice a dip in ability if he is paired with a weaker partner.

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Old
01-14-2010, 08:21 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by mattihp View Post
Kenny Johnson? An unknown NA-version of Kenny Jönsson?
We don't have that on our keyboards on the other side of the ocean.

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Old
01-14-2010, 08:27 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by El Diego View Post
Francois Beauchemin (Niedermayer)
That's what I came in here to type

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Old
01-15-2010, 02:35 AM
  #71
mattihp
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We don't have that on our keyboards on the other side of the ocean.
But you do have the option of putting hns instead of nss?

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Old
01-15-2010, 02:46 AM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El Diego View Post
So you would say Komisarek's contract is not a product of Markov? Because I think the term 'a product' is perfect for that situation.
So Kaberle sucks?
Weird thing is, Habs fans said the he always took inopportune penalties.
Not the case in Toronto at all.

I honestly think Komi and Beauch are getting bad raps, due to inherent Leaf-Bashing.

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Old
01-15-2010, 03:09 AM
  #73
DDs not undersized
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hipster Doofus View Post
MAB when he was paired with Tom Poti on the Islanders. Poti was a rock that year and made MAB look like stud.
Quote:
Originally Posted by faiz View Post
Marc-Andre Bergeron when he was paired with Pronger on the Oilers
It's funny because Bergeron is having a career year now and he has a different partner every game (Gill, Mara, O'Byrne, etc.). He even plays on the 4th line!

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Old
01-15-2010, 03:33 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Sandlak View Post
Barret Jackman won the Calder on the strength of Al Macinnis' play.
This is a common misconception, especially amongst Detroit/Sweden/Zetterberg fans.

Jackman was definitely helped by playing with MacInnis, but his individual performance was GREAT that year. He didn't continue to grow because of serious shoulder injuries.

Jackman is now back to being a well above average shutdown d-man with some two-way to his game. He isn't what he could have been: more physical, an outstanding fighter, and a better shot. But his play that year got him the Calder more than is the popular belief.

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Old
01-15-2010, 05:56 AM
  #75
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Niklas Hjalmarsson and in a good sense.
I think he moved his play to next level when paired with Campbell and has learned (and is still learning) a lot from Ginger.

I also think that if Hjalmarsson wouldnt have had the opportunity to play with such offensive minded fast puck mover (and skater) that Campbell is he might not have found his own game becouse in a sense Hammers play is product of Campbell´s game.

Clarification: Hjalmarsson these days plays very Defensive minded game but still manages to help the puck carrier and moves the puck up the zone rather quickly.
He is invisible workhorse who i have rarely seen doing anything stupid or risky. Exactly unlike Campbell.

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