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Matt Stajan to Calgary

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Old
01-15-2010, 03:39 PM
  #51
DropIt
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Moss + Chucko + CBJ 3rd
for
Ponikarovsky +TO 4th

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Old
01-15-2010, 04:01 PM
  #52
zeke
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09/10

O.Jokinen: 47gms, 9gls, 30pts, 18:47
M.Stajan: 47gms, 13gls, 35pts, 19:03
A.Poni: 48gms, 15gls, 29pts, 16:37

08/09

O.Jokinen: 76gms, 29gls, 57pts, 18:53
M.Stajan: 76gms, 15gls, 55pts, 16:56
A.Poni: 82gms, 23gls, 63pts, 15:47

How much did you guys give up for Jokinen again?

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Old
01-15-2010, 04:06 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeke View Post

How much did you guys give up for Jokinen again?
Matthew Lombardi, [Jim Vandermeer] and a 1st in 2010.

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Old
01-15-2010, 04:15 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeke View Post
09/10

O.Jokinen: 47gms, 9gls, 30pts, 18:47
M.Stajan: 47gms, 13gls, 35pts, 19:03
A.Poni: 48gms, 15gls, 29pts, 16:37

08/09

O.Jokinen: 76gms, 29gls, 57pts, 18:53
M.Stajan: 76gms, 15gls, 55pts, 16:56
A.Poni: 82gms, 23gls, 63pts, 15:47

How much did you guys give up for Jokinen again?
how is this relevant to this thread?

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Old
01-15-2010, 04:15 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oblivion View Post
Matthew Lombardi, [Jim Vandermeer] and a 1st in 2010.
So Jokinen, who finished the season with only 2 more pts than Stajan while averaging 2 mins more a game, gets Lombardi, 1st round pick, and vandermeer while Stajan gets a 3rd liner + 3rd round pick.

I obviously take in consideration Jokinen's 29 goals > Stajans 15, but something doesn't add up here

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Old
01-15-2010, 04:17 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by All_blueandwhite View Post
So Jokinen, who finished the season with only 2 more pts than Stajan while averaging 2 mins more a game, gets Lombardi, 1st round pick, and vandermeer while Stajan gets a 3rd liner + 3rd round pick.

I obviously take in consideration Jokinen's 29 goals > Stajans 15, but something doesn't add up here
what doesnt add up is peple are ignoring other 30 goal seasons and 90 point seasons from jokinen, he had a reputation as a solid #1 center you pay for that too

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Old
01-15-2010, 04:19 PM
  #57
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I too fail to see the relevance. I don't generally consider the value of a player based on what they were traded for. Also, the Jokinen deal is generally sonsidered to have turned out badly for Calgary anyways.

This isn't particularly relevant in my opinion. I mean Kiprusoff is playing better than Toskala this season, how much did you give up for Toskala again?

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Old
01-15-2010, 04:26 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by All_blueandwhite View Post
So Jokinen, who finished the season with only 2 more pts than Stajan while averaging 2 mins more a game, gets Lombardi, 1st round pick, and vandermeer while Stajan gets a 3rd liner + 3rd round pick.

I obviously take in consideration Jokinen's 29 goals > Stajans 15, but something doesn't add up here
A better comparison other for Stajan would be his own teamates. Jokinen played on a different squad and was not a UFA. Likely Stajan's value is similar to Antropov's and Moore's.

I believe Antropov and Moore had similar totals (or at least PPG) and played in the same system. I would peg Stajan's value personally as a 2nd.

Lombardi was an exellant player, Vandermeer was somewhat of a salary dump and the first was traded with the assumption it would be a late first. Secondly, Jokinen's play has largely been considered a dissapointment and Sutter was likely anticipating him to perform better.

I think the consensu would be that Jokinen has been underperforming and Stajan has been overperforming (similar to Moore). I'll concede that I barely watch the Leafs, so my valuation may be way off. This is just my personal opinion.

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Old
01-15-2010, 04:30 PM
  #59
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Some would argue that the Leafs got absolutely hosed only getting a 2nd rounder for Antropov.

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Old
01-15-2010, 04:33 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oblivion View Post
I too fail to see the relevance. I don't generally consider the value of a player based on what they were traded for. Also, the Jokinen deal is generally sonsidered to have turned out badly for Calgary anyways.

This isn't particularly relevant in my opinion. I mean Kiprusoff is playing better than Toskala this season, how much did you give up for Toskala again?
We traded for Toskala 3 seasons ago, so bringing that up adds nothing really, but anyways..

It was at the draft, and he was coming off a stellar season with SJ where he went 23-7-4 with .901 SV%. We gave up a 1st, 2nd, and 4th.

Kiprusoff was coming off a 5-14-1 season with a .879 SV% with SJ. You guys gave up a 2nd (or 3rd? can't remember).

Either way, not only was the toskala deal 3 years ago, so it really has no validity in this argument, but he was coming off a much better season then Kiprusoff was when he was aquired. So what's your point?

While were in the habit of bringing up old deals, wanna discuss the Gretzky trade?

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Old
01-15-2010, 04:39 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oblivion View Post
A better comparison other for Stajan would be his own teamates. Jokinen played on a different squad and was not a UFA.
So because he played on a different team, even though both PHX and TOR were equally bad last season, the leafs' player has less value?



Sure Jokinen had 1 more year left on his contract, but that does not justify Stajan getting so much less in return even though at the time they were having almost identical seasons statistically. It's also not unheard of that pending UFAs resign with the teams they're traded to at the deadline.

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Old
01-15-2010, 04:49 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeke View Post
Some would argue that the Leafs got absolutely hosed only getting a 2nd rounder for Antropov.
Others would argue that GM's are now adapting to the Salary Cap world, and 1st rounders aren't going to be thrown around like they used to given the premium on cheap talent. I think Toronto would be lucky to get more than a 2nd + prospect for both Ponikarovsky and Stajan at the deadline. It's a new world with the salary cap.

Oh, and by the way, feel free to bring up some of Jokinen's older stats (like the first 3 years post lockout when he averaged 38 goals and 84 points per year versus Antropov's average of 40 points) when you make comparisons to guys like Antropov and Stajan. Stats are fun.

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Old
01-15-2010, 05:33 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Lunatik View Post
how is picking 1 round later making it so the scouts are working for nothing? that's more what i was saying than anything... picking in the 3rd is still a decent pick and adding soemone like Boyd is good as well because of his age and you don't even knowif would get a player as good as Boyd in the 2nd round since the draft is supposed to be weaker
Its a huge deal for the Leafs a Burke. Currently they dont have a 1st or a 2nd rounder, so getting a 2nd rounder would get them in the 30 - 60 area (probably around 50). Getting another 3rd rounder helps but not as much as a 2nd. Burke stated he does not want his scouts sitting on their hands during the most important rounds of the draft, thats why he will acquire a 2nd round pick. Unless he is getting a player he sees can fit in longterm and teams dont give up those kind of players, which is why i believe Burke will go for the highest pick possible (a 2nd rounder).

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Old
01-15-2010, 05:39 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neely06 View Post
Others would argue that GM's are now adapting to the Salary Cap world, and 1st rounders aren't going to be thrown around like they used to given the premium on cheap talent. I think Toronto would be lucky to get more than a 2nd + prospect for both Ponikarovsky and Stajan at the deadline. It's a new world with the salary cap.
well, someone gave up a 1st rounder for Chris Campoli last year, so hey can't be holding on too tight.

Quote:
Oh, and by the way, feel free to bring up some of Jokinen's older stats (like the first 3 years post lockout when he averaged 38 goals and 84 points per year versus Antropov's average of 40 points) when you make comparisons to guys like Antropov and Stajan. Stats are fun.
Lot of good those 4 and 5 year old stats have done for Calgary, eh?

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01-15-2010, 05:45 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeke View Post
Lot of good those 4 and 5 year old stats have done for Calgary, eh?
no one said they did, they are saying those numbers affected trade value when the Flames acquired him... not that hard to understand if you actually use your brain

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01-15-2010, 05:57 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Lunatik View Post
personally I would be willing to offer Moss+ or Boyd+ for Stajan... i think these offers are fair...

Dustin Boyd & a 3rd
or
David Moss, Kris Chucko & a 3rd

in eithe rdeal I would be willing to swap the 3rd with Matt Pelech

or in either deal I would be willing to up the pick to a 2nd if they make it conditional on Stajan signing with Calgary... if he doesn't the pick would drop to a 4th
I would do either one of those deals proposed. Both of them give the Maple Leafs and NHL player to replace Stajan with (at a cheaper cost) & a decent pick as incentive. Dustin Boyd could potentially add some scoring on the bottom lines but David Moss is related to Kessel & could be a body the Leafs plant in front of the net on the bottom lines. It's a toss-up for me but this is exactly the type of deal I, personally, would be looking for in return for Stajan; NHLer + pick for Stajan as opposed to 2nd + late pick for Stajan

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Old
01-15-2010, 05:59 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunatik View Post
how is this relevant to this thread?
Maybe he wants 1st + Moss/Boyd + salary dump for Stajan



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Old
01-15-2010, 06:00 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by All_blueandwhite View Post
So because he played on a different team, even though both PHX and TOR were equally bad last season, the leafs' player has less value?



Sure Jokinen had 1 more year left on his contract, but that does not justify Stajan getting so much less in return even though at the time they were having almost identical seasons statistically. It's also not unheard of that pending UFAs resign with the teams they're traded to at the deadline.
I said better comparison other.

It is objectively true that it is easier to compare 2 players that play with the same teamates in the same system and likely have played on the same line, than to compare 2 players on 2 different teams.

Are you saying it is easier to compare 2 things in the same controlled environment than it is to compare 2 things in different environments.

I think it is fact you who needs the :

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Old
01-15-2010, 06:12 PM
  #69
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well, someone gave up a 1st rounder for Chris Campoli last year, so hey can't be holding on too tight.



Lot of good those 4 and 5 year old stats have done for Calgary, eh?
Ah, the details always getting in the way. Ottawa sent San Jose's pick and Dean McAmmond's corpse to the Isles for Campoli and Comrie. FWIW, Campoli is still 24 years old and makes $600K. Not a good trade, but also not a UFA rental.

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01-15-2010, 06:26 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunatik View Post
no one said they did, they are saying those numbers affected trade value when the Flames acquired him... not that hard to understand if you actually use your brain
SO you're saying that Jokinen and Antropov were valued differently based on what turned out to be irrelevant factors, with one team getting ripped off, and the other team getting a very good deal.

I agree.

So, what do we learn about player value from this little exercise?

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01-15-2010, 06:28 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Neely06 View Post
Ah, the details always getting in the way. Ottawa sent San Jose's pick and Dean McAmmond's corpse to the Isles for Campoli and Comrie. FWIW, Campoli is still 24 years old and makes $600K. Not a good trade, but also not a UFA rental.
well that's convincing - obviously GMs are holding tight to their 1st rounders.

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01-15-2010, 06:56 PM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeke View Post
SO you're saying that Jokinen and Antropov were valued differently based on what turned out to be irrelevant factors, with one team getting ripped off, and the other team getting a very good deal.

I agree.

So, what do we learn about player value from this little exercise?
that this isnt a good example because teams pay more to get a chance at more... and whether it turned out that way or not Jokinen had a better chance of making a significant offensive impact

and while the past turned out to be an irrelevant factor you are ignoring the fact Jokinen was not a rental, Antropov was... and Jokinen led the Flames in playoff scoring and was their best forward against Chicago... Antropov didn't make a significant positive imapct on the Rangers at all in the post season

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01-15-2010, 07:00 PM
  #73
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Whoever attempts to trade for Stajan may do so with the intent of re-signing him. Stajan just turned 26, after all.

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Old
01-15-2010, 07:20 PM
  #74
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man this thread really took a bad turn. It seemed pretty civil for the first two pages.

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Old
01-15-2010, 07:30 PM
  #75
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Stajan > Boyd in any role. Leafs should not be in the business of downgrading quality of a single player in order to stockpile picks. We have lots of prospects.
Every team has lot's of prospects. The difference being a lot of ours aren't that great. I'll disagree with Boyd not being better defensively. Boyd has more hits and more blocked shots while playing 6 minutes less per game. His face off % is all of 1% lower then Stajan's. You aren't trading Stajan to get a Stajan back. The leafs have never been able to find a comfortable place to play Stajan and don't seem to be looking at him long term. So we replace the loss of a center with a more suited 3rd line center and pick up a draft pick while were at it. This makes room for Bozak on the big club and takes Wallin's spot off of the roster.

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