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Matt Stajan to Calgary

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Old
01-15-2010, 07:45 PM
  #76
seanlinden
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Originally Posted by dredeye View Post
Every team has lot's of prospects. The difference being a lot of ours aren't that great. I'll disagree with Boyd not being better defensively. Boyd has more hits and more blocked shots while playing 6 minutes less per game. His face off % is all of 1% lower then Stajan's. You aren't trading Stajan to get a Stajan back. The leafs have never been able to find a comfortable place to play Stajan and don't seem to be looking at him long term. So we replace the loss of a center with a more suited 3rd line center and pick up a draft pick while were at it. This makes room for Bozak on the big club and takes Wallin's spot off of the roster.
And more 2nd & 3rd round picks are going to change that? As far as the Leafs are concerned they should only be interested in first rounders.

The Leafs have never found a place to play Stajan because they've needed him to be our #1 centre for the past few years. The reality is that he is extremely versatile, and if you put him as the 3rd line centre then he'll be an excellent one. He's also better than Boyd because of his ability to provide offence both from teh 3rd line and in case of injury.

"Making room" for Bozak shouldn't even be a consideration. If he forces someone off the roster than we'll deal with that when it comes. Right now he's displaced Stajan as Kessel's centre, but Stajan still displaces Mitchell, Wallin & Primeau for 3rd line centre. If Bozak plays with this team next year, it'll be on the top 2 or 4th line, not in Stajan's spot.

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01-15-2010, 07:48 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by jfried View Post
And more 2nd & 3rd round picks are going to change that? As far as the Leafs are concerned they should only be interested in first rounders.
Why? Whats wrong with second round picks? They need picks, period.

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01-15-2010, 07:54 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by grabo84 View Post
Why? Whats wrong with second round picks? They need picks, period.
How are more potential 2nd/3rd liners going to help us?

We've got tons of them in the lineup, and even more waiting in the wings. Furthermore, picking up these 2nd/3rd liners in free agency is far from difficult. The leafs need to be addressing their need for high end players. If they can't do that, there's no point in trading away valuable parts of our team for next year.

Heck, even fi you want to talk about straight "value" and ignore needs. Let's say the offer is a 2nd round pick for Stajan which is a pick that will be 45-55. Take a look at the 45-55 draft picks. I'd bet that Stajan is better than the majority of them.

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01-15-2010, 07:56 PM
  #79
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well that's convincing - obviously GMs are holding tight to their 1st rounders.
So wait, my argument was unconvincing, yet you've failed to cite a single instance where a rental fetched a 1st rounder in the past two years. FWIW, Brian Campbell and Hossa are the only rentals in the past two years to get a 1st rounder back. Maybe I'm crazy, but I don't envision Ponikarovsky or Stajan creating a similar bidding war.

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01-15-2010, 08:54 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by jfried View Post
And more 2nd & 3rd round picks are going to change that? As far as the Leafs are concerned they should only be interested in first rounders.

The Leafs have never found a place to play Stajan because they've needed him to be our #1 centre for the past few years. The reality is that he is extremely versatile, and if you put him as the 3rd line centre then he'll be an excellent one. He's also better than Boyd because of his ability to provide offence both from teh 3rd line and in case of injury.

"Making room" for Bozak shouldn't even be a consideration. If he forces someone off the roster than we'll deal with that when it comes. Right now he's displaced Stajan as Kessel's centre, but Stajan still displaces Mitchell, Wallin & Primeau for 3rd line centre. If Bozak plays with this team next year, it'll be on the top 2 or 4th line, not in Stajan's spot.
man your missing the point. Bozak IMO is the replacement as our #1 center next year. Grabovski is our #2 seeing as he's signed for two more years. Stajan is gonna be looking for a good raise and I'm not interested in paying Stajan more then he makes now to play less then he does now. Yes second and third round picks go a long way in adding good depth to your prospect pool. NHL'ers aren't only drafted in the first round. If you'd like an example of a player drafted in the 2nd round I'll give you this one that was drafted 57th overall. He goes by the name of Matt Stajan.

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01-15-2010, 08:57 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Neely06 View Post
So wait, my argument was unconvincing, yet you've failed to cite a single instance where a rental fetched a 1st rounder in the past two years. FWIW, Brian Campbell and Hossa are the only rentals in the past two years to get a 1st rounder back. Maybe I'm crazy, but I don't envision Ponikarovsky or Stajan creating a similar bidding war.
I'm a leafs fan and I can't see any team giving up a first for either player mentioned. I'd be very happy if someone did but in real life I'm expecting 2nd round picks with maybe a + attached. Some kind of conditional thing.

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01-15-2010, 09:14 PM
  #82
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man your missing the point. Bozak IMO is the replacement as our #1 center next year. Grabovski is our #2 seeing as he's signed for two more years. Stajan is gonna be looking for a good raise and I'm not interested in paying Stajan more then he makes now to play less then he does now. Yes second and third round picks go a long way in adding good depth to your prospect pool. NHL'ers aren't only drafted in the first round. If you'd like an example of a player drafted in the 2nd round I'll give you this one that was drafted 57th overall. He goes by the name of Matt Stajan.
Bozak has played a whopping total of 4 NHL games, and you're ready to annoint him our #1 centre? Last I checked Burke wasn't planning on doing this poorly next year. The fact is that we're problably not going to have a great #1 centre, which means that we'll need the depth down the middle that having Stajan will provide. Now obviously if Burke can't sign him to a deal then he gets put up for the highest bidder, but until that point, there's no reason to believe that Burke can't get him to a relatively long term deal in the $2million range.

We've got depth in our prospect pool. At the end of the day more depth isn't going to help us win more games. As for examples of players drafted in the second round.... lets look at that 2002 NHL entry draft. You know who else was drafted in the last portion of that 2nd round? Alexei Shkotov, Kirill Koltsov, Sergei Anshakov, Anton Kadekyn, Dan Spang, Duncan Keith, Denis Grot, Vladislav Yevesev, Jiri Hudler, Maxime Daigneault, Adam Henrich, Johnny Boychuk, Andrei Mikhnov, and Tomas Fleishmann.

You know what that means? There's about a 1/15 possibility that we get a player significantly better than Stajan, a 3/15 possility of getting a player who is approximately as good as Stajan, and and a 11/15 possibility that the player never plays an NHL game.

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01-15-2010, 09:34 PM
  #83
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Leafs lost again...We need atleast Iggy for Stajan now...


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01-15-2010, 10:08 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by jfried View Post
Bozak has played a whopping total of 4 NHL games, and you're ready to annoint him our #1 centre? Last I checked Burke wasn't planning on doing this poorly next year. The fact is that we're problably not going to have a great #1 centre, which means that we'll need the depth down the middle that having Stajan will provide. Now obviously if Burke can't sign him to a deal then he gets put up for the highest bidder, but until that point, there's no reason to believe that Burke can't get him to a relatively long term deal in the $2million range.

We've got depth in our prospect pool. At the end of the day more depth isn't going to help us win more games. As for examples of players drafted in the second round.... lets look at that 2002 NHL entry draft. You know who else was drafted in the last portion of that 2nd round? Alexei Shkotov, Kirill Koltsov, Sergei Anshakov, Anton Kadekyn, Dan Spang, Duncan Keith, Denis Grot, Vladislav Yevesev, Jiri Hudler, Maxime Daigneault, Adam Henrich, Johnny Boychuk, Andrei Mikhnov, and Tomas Fleishmann.

You know what that means? There's about a 1/15 possibility that we get a player significantly better than Stajan, a 3/15 possility of getting a player who is approximately as good as Stajan, and and a 11/15 possibility that the player never plays an NHL game.
What there's a chance a draft pick doesn't work out? Daigle was drafted first overall and he doesn't play in the NHL either. Of course it's a gamble with draft pics. That's why you want prospect depth. We have some good prospects but not enough of them. Three NHL'er were drafted in the last part of that draft. That's pretty good IMO. There were also more NHL'ers drafted ahead of him in the 2nd round that year. Without a first we need more pics to ensure a chance at an NHL'er. Bozak IMO is Burke's plan for the first line not mine. Oh and last I checked Burke wasn't planning on doing this poorly this year either. So let's say we made this trade. We'd have Bozak, Grabs, Boyd, Mitchell pretty much set. My guess is they re up Primeau. That's about as good of depth as we can expect. We can also assume he'll pursue what little there is for top end #1 centers via free agency i.e Marleau or Plekanec. If they can't be had he can look elsewhere through trade. Stajan is not part of the leafs future IMO.

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01-15-2010, 10:38 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by dredeye View Post
What there's a chance a draft pick doesn't work out? Daigle was drafted first overall and he doesn't play in the NHL either. Of course it's a gamble with draft pics. That's why you want prospect depth. We have some good prospects but not enough of them. Three NHL'er were drafted in the last part of that draft. That's pretty good IMO. There were also more NHL'ers drafted ahead of him in the 2nd round that year. Without a first we need more pics to ensure a chance at an NHL'er. Bozak IMO is Burke's plan for the first line not mine. Oh and last I checked Burke wasn't planning on doing this poorly this year either. So let's say we made this trade. We'd have Bozak, Grabs, Boyd, Mitchell pretty much set. My guess is they re up Primeau. That's about as good of depth as we can expect. We can also assume he'll pursue what little there is for top end #1 centers via free agency i.e Marleau or Plekanec. If they can't be had he can look elsewhere through trade. Stajan is not part of the leafs future IMO.
Yeah, and you look at the history of first overall picks -- most of them end up being extremely good players, when you get into the later rounds it is a crapshoot. This means you need prospect depth, which the Leafs already have. It does not mean you give up valuable players to take a crapshoot. Every draft pick is valuable, but you have to make deals that make sense. If a team wants Stajan, they either need to give us something that makes us a better team in the short run or a pretty decent chance at a player significantly better than him. From Calgary, that means the first round pick is the starting point (or Backlund). If the Flames think that's too much -- that's absolutely fine. He's an important part of our team and we can most likely resign him. He's not really important to Calgary and they prolably have less of a chance of resigning him. Thats why the only players who move as rentals are ones who their teams did not have in the plans for the following year.


Filling out an NHL roster should be the least of our concerns. We've got Bozak, Hanson, Stefanovich, Paradis, Kadri, Stalberg, Ryan, Blacker, D'amigo, DiDomenico & Hayes, plus current NHLers in Grabo, Hagman, Kulemin & Stajan. Without a first line, we need FIRST LINE PLAYERS; you don't get that in the 2nd round.

Brian Burke is not an idiot. The only reason Bozak is playing is because everyone else is playing like absolute crap. Yes- he seems to have a bit of natural chemistry with Kessel, but the Leafs goals are to make the playoffs, and unless Bozak does the something seriously unexpected and sticks with the team for the remainder of the year and dominates -- he is not the "plan" for a first line centre.

Let's say we made that trade -- we'd have ONE player who belongs in the top 6. Lets say we didn't make that trade, we'd have TWO. Regardless of whether or not the Leafs are able to acquire a real #1 centre, they are a better team with Stajan than they are with Boyd.... it's really as simple as that. If they don't get a real #1 centre, then the need to keep Stajan is even bigger.

There is no reason to believe that Brian Burke is going to downgrade the little amount of skill on this team to acquire a pick which will turn out into a player that problably has a 1/3 chance of making the NHL, and if he does, it'll most likely be another bottom 6 forward. Now, don't get me wrong, I realize that stars do come from late in the draft, but to value a draft pick assuming you're going to get a star player is absolutely ridiculous unless the pick is in the top of the draft. In the case of Stajan, you're looking at a minimal chance of that draftee beign better than he is.

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01-15-2010, 11:19 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by jfried View Post
How are more potential 2nd/3rd liners going to help us?

We've got tons of them in the lineup, and even more waiting in the wings. Furthermore, picking up these 2nd/3rd liners in free agency is far from difficult. The leafs need to be addressing their need for high end players. If they can't do that, there's no point in trading away valuable parts of our team for next year.

Heck, even fi you want to talk about straight "value" and ignore needs. Let's say the offer is a 2nd round pick for Stajan which is a pick that will be 45-55. Take a look at the 45-55 draft picks. I'd bet that Stajan is better than the majority of them.
Why is a 2nd or 3rd rounder only destined to become a 2nd/3rd liner? I don't get the logic here. We aren't exactly overflowing with prospects, more picks is a huge priority right now. Again, we do not have prospect depth. It needs work.

But, of course, Stajan is better than most players draft 45-55. He's also an upcoming UFA, something you have to bear in mind. Do you really want to pay him what he'll think he's worth? Is Matt Stajan a guy you build around? I don't think so, and if thats the case you get a return before he walks for nothing.

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01-15-2010, 11:49 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by grabo84 View Post
Why is a 2nd or 3rd rounder only destined to become a 2nd/3rd liner? I don't get the logic here. We aren't exactly overflowing with prospects, more picks is a huge priority right now. Again, we do not have prospect depth. It needs work.

But, of course, Stajan is better than most players draft 45-55. He's also an upcoming UFA, something you have to bear in mind. Do you really want to pay him what he'll think he's worth? Is Matt Stajan a guy you build around? I don't think so, and if thats the case you get a return before he walks for nothing.
Look at every draft that has occured in the last 10 years -- the players who go in the 2nd & 3rd round rarely make the NHL, and even rarer become high end players. Go on hockeydb and look at the 2nd and 3rd round of pretty much any draft that is at least a few years old...heck even take that incredible 2003 draft. Most of the players drafted in the 2nd/3rd round never played in the NHL. As for guys who are better than Stajan, you've got Bergeron, Weber & O'Sullivan. That's 3 players out of 70 picks!

We are overflowing with prospects, especially up front. As I mentioned, we've got Bozak, Hanson, Stefanovich, Paradis, Kadri, Stalberg, Ryan, Blacker, D'amigo, Gunnarson, DiDomenico & Hayes. That's 11 legitimate NHL prospects (9 of which are forwards) and we're loaded on the back end with guys like Komisarek, Beauchemin, Schenn, White, Kaberle. Heck, if 2 of those guys become NHL players, then we'll only have a couple odd holes in the bottom 9 forwards here and there (which are easy to fix with veterans).

As I've repeatedly mentioned, if he's not in the plans for next year (whether that be personnel adjustments or inability to find a contract) then this is a completely different story. Obviously, Matt Stajan isn't a guy that you build around, but because he is so versatile, he is a guy that will be extremely useful to our team regardless of what happens with Bozak, Grabovski, and any potential acquisitions. If the Leafs get their guy, then he's an extremely good 3rd line centre for us. If that happens and Bozak proves that he can stick, it makes a guy like Grabovski expendable and they go 2/3. If the Leafs can't get a #1 centre, then we absolutely need him. There really isn't a situation where we are better off without him, so talking about trading him as a rental for futures simply makes no sense. You do that with players who won't help you.

Assuming the Leafs continue their losing ways and become sellers at the deadline, then you do exactly what Burke did last year. If he can get Stajan to the right price, then you keep him. Otherwise you trade him. But, until that occurs, you don't listen to offers unless they make HOCKEY SENSE. The same goes for White. As for Poni & Stempniak, I think they may be in a situation where Burke simply doesnt' want them back.

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01-15-2010, 11:56 PM
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Yeah, and you look at the history of first overall picks -- most of them end up being extremely good players, when you get into the later rounds it is a crapshoot. This means you need prospect depth, which the Leafs already have. It does not mean you give up valuable players to take a crapshoot. Every draft pick is valuable, but you have to make deals that make sense. If a team wants Stajan, they either need to give us something that makes us a better team in the short run or a pretty decent chance at a player significantly better than him. From Calgary, that means the first round pick is the starting point (or Backlund). If the Flames think that's too much -- that's absolutely fine. He's an important part of our team and we can most likely resign him. He's not really important to Calgary and they prolably have less of a chance of resigning him. Thats why the only players who move as rentals are ones who their teams did not have in the plans for the following year.


Filling out an NHL roster should be the least of our concerns. We've got Bozak, Hanson, Stefanovich, Paradis, Kadri, Stalberg, Ryan, Blacker, D'amigo, DiDomenico & Hayes, plus current NHLers in Grabo, Hagman, Kulemin & Stajan. Without a first line, we need FIRST LINE PLAYERS; you don't get that in the 2nd round.

Brian Burke is not an idiot. The only reason Bozak is playing is because everyone else is playing like absolute crap. Yes- he seems to have a bit of natural chemistry with Kessel, but the Leafs goals are to make the playoffs, and unless Bozak does the something seriously unexpected and sticks with the team for the remainder of the year and dominates -- he is not the "plan" for a first line centre.

Let's say we made that trade -- we'd have ONE player who belongs in the top 6. Lets say we didn't make that trade, we'd have TWO. Regardless of whether or not the Leafs are able to acquire a real #1 centre, they are a better team with Stajan than they are with Boyd.... it's really as simple as that. If they don't get a real #1 centre, then the need to keep Stajan is even bigger.

There is no reason to believe that Brian Burke is going to downgrade the little amount of skill on this team to acquire a pick which will turn out into a player that problably has a 1/3 chance of making the NHL, and if he does, it'll most likely be another bottom 6 forward. Now, don't get me wrong, I realize that stars do come from late in the draft, but to value a draft pick assuming you're going to get a star player is absolutely ridiculous unless the pick is in the top of the draft. In the case of Stajan, you're looking at a minimal chance of that draftee beign better than he is.
Wow again that's a lot of missing the point. Why wouldn't Stajan be in their plans. Jokinen is a ufa at seasons end and has had trouble in Calgary. Maybe they are interested in signing Stajan instead. If you do believe they don't have long term plans for Stajan then what's the problem? The leafs could simply re sign him as a ufa if they wanted to. You also realize that of the 11 players you mentioned 2 were drafted in the first round? Yes the likelyhood of a player drafted in the first round makes it is better then that of a 2nd that's why it's the first round. My example of Daigle was to illustrate that it's always a best guess when drafting a player. The likelyhood of drafting a player that is better then Stajan isn't likely I'm sure but to say you can only draft a bottom six player in a later round is ridiculous. You also realize that Paradis projects to be a third liner as does Hanson. You know what that list of prospects is missing? D and a goalie but Reimer looks good. You are dilusional if you think we can get Backlund or a first for Stajan. That's likely Burke's starting point but not what should be expected. How about we agree to disagree because I simply don't put as much value into him going forward as you do. BTW Bozak is not on the team because the salary cap does not allow it. This genius Burke gave him too much in incentives making him impossible to fit under the cap. After the deadline he'll be up with the big club for the remainder of the year. He'll be sent back down the day Grabovski is cleared to play

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01-16-2010, 12:12 AM
  #89
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Wow again that's a lot of missing the point. Why wouldn't Stajan be in their plans. Jokinen is a ufa at seasons end and has had trouble in Calgary. Maybe they are interested in signing Stajan instead. If you do believe they don't have long term plans for Stajan then what's the problem? The leafs could simply re sign him as a ufa if they wanted to. You also realize that of the 11 players you mentioned 2 were drafted in the first round? Yes the likelyhood of a player drafted in the first round makes it is better then that of a 2nd that's why it's the first round. My example of Daigle was to illustrate that it's always a best guess when drafting a player. The likelyhood of drafting a player that is better then Stajan isn't likely I'm sure but to say you can only draft a bottom six player in a later round is ridiculous. You also realize that Paradis projects to be a third liner as does Hanson. You know what that list of prospects is missing? D and a goalie but Reimer looks good. You are dilusional if you think we can get Backlund or a first for Stajan. That's likely Burke's starting point but not what should be expected. How about we agree to disagree because I simply don't put as much value into him going forward as you do. BTW Bozak is not on the team because the salary cap does not allow it. This genius Burke gave him too much in incentives making him impossible to fit under the cap. After the deadline he'll be up with the big club for the remainder of the year. He'll be sent back down the day Grabovski is cleared to play
Calgary has no idea how Stajan will react to playing in a new environment, and isn't an adequate replacement for Jokinen. He's a 2/3 guy and the Flames have Langkow & Backlund. But, if they really think that Stajan is part of the future for them, then let them make a hockey offer. Once a player is traded, they rarely return, and usually will only do so at a higher price. That being said, no team is going to give up the assets required to land a guy like Stajan when they don't know about his contract situation. The Leafs have the non-transferrable benefit of beign able to negotiate before the trade.

I never said that you can only get bottom 6 players from the 2nd round, what I did say is that it would be extremely foolish to expect anything more than a bottom 6 player. Every year a couple teams get lucky, but to assume that we're going to be that team is just dumb.

I realize that this team has Nik Hagman, Mikhail Grabovski, Nikolai Kulemin & Matt Stajan. You know what that means? We only need 2 right wingers to fill out the 2nd & 3rd lines. That isn't hard to get through free agency if those guys don't develop.

On D, there is really only Blacker & Gunnarson, but the leafs have their top 4 (maybe 5) likely going to be locked up long term....so it really doesn't matter. Drafting goalies is an even bigger crapshoot and any goalie is 3-4 years away anyways. Should the leafs be tradign away more picks? no. But they shouldn't be trading away valuable players to get picks. Guys who aren't going to be back next year should be moved for picks.

I don't think (and never said) we can get Backlund or a First for Stajan. Its simply a case where unless a team can knock our socks off; trading Stajan just isn't worth it. If Calgary wants to do that, one of those two have to be included.

If Bozak was worhty of playing, Burke would find a way to make it happen. Finger is in and out of the lineup anyways, he could've been sent to the Marlies and clear up all the cap he wants. Bottom line is that Bozak didn't do much in the AHL (granted he did have H1N1) and didn't deserve a callup.

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01-16-2010, 01:13 AM
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I realize that The Leafs have too many D-Men as is, but Exelby is going to be traded before the dealine and whats left on the blueline is awful defensively.

Are the Flames high on Pelech?
I think he would make a solid addition to our D corps.

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01-16-2010, 02:25 AM
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Stajan for Glencross straight up....

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01-16-2010, 02:35 AM
  #92
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I realize that The Leafs have too many D-Men as is, but Exelby is going to be traded before the dealine and whats left on the blueline is awful defensively.

Are the Flames high on Pelech?
I think he would make a solid addition to our D corps.
What's left on the blueline is far from awful. Kaberle, Komi, Beauch, White, Schenn, Gunnarson seems pretty good to me. Finger is the only real problem on d.

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01-16-2010, 02:37 AM
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Originally Posted by jfried View Post
Calgary has no idea how Stajan will react to playing in a new environment, and isn't an adequate replacement for Jokinen. He's a 2/3 guy and the Flames have Langkow & Backlund. But, if they really think that Stajan is part of the future for them, then let them make a hockey offer. Once a player is traded, they rarely return, and usually will only do so at a higher price. That being said, no team is going to give up the assets required to land a guy like Stajan when they don't know about his contract situation. The Leafs have the non-transferrable benefit of beign able to negotiate before the trade.

I never said that you can only get bottom 6 players from the 2nd round, what I did say is that it would be extremely foolish to expect anything more than a bottom 6 player. Every year a couple teams get lucky, but to assume that we're going to be that team is just dumb.

I realize that this team has Nik Hagman, Mikhail Grabovski, Nikolai Kulemin & Matt Stajan. You know what that means? We only need 2 right wingers to fill out the 2nd & 3rd lines. That isn't hard to get through free agency if those guys don't develop.

On D, there is really only Blacker & Gunnarson, but the leafs have their top 4 (maybe 5) likely going to be locked up long term....so it really doesn't matter. Drafting goalies is an even bigger crapshoot and any goalie is 3-4 years away anyways. Should the leafs be tradign away more picks? no. But they shouldn't be trading away valuable players to get picks. Guys who aren't going to be back next year should be moved for picks.

I don't think (and never said) we can get Backlund or a First for Stajan. Its simply a case where unless a team can knock our socks off; trading Stajan just isn't worth it. If Calgary wants to do that, one of those two have to be included.

If Bozak was worhty of playing, Burke would find a way to make it happen. Finger is in and out of the lineup anyways, he could've been sent to the Marlies and clear up all the cap he wants. Bottom line is that Bozak didn't do much in the AHL (granted he did have H1N1) and didn't deserve a callup.
I'm done debating this with you. We will NOT agree. I'll simply say that Burke is full of ####. The difference between Bozak and Finger is that they don't have to pay Bozak's NHL salary if he's with the Marlies but they sure as #### do if Finger's down there. Make sense now

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01-16-2010, 09:08 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by jfried View Post
I realize that this team has Nik Hagman, Mikhail Grabovski, Nikolai Kulemin & Matt Stajan. You know what that means?
That we have a lousy top six?

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01-16-2010, 09:11 AM
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That we have a lousy top six?
That we have a lousy top line. Please explain to me how 2nd round picks change that.

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01-16-2010, 09:25 AM
  #96
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That we have a lousy top line. Please explain to me how 2nd round picks change that.
They don't change anything next year unless we draft Patrice Bergeron 2.0. More realistically, maybe a few years down the road we have some young players coming along that really push the established top six players we have, and provide a competitive atmosphere in Toronto, where players roster spots aren't set in stone. Wouldn't that be nice?

I wish you'd explain to me why its so important we retain players who are upcoming UFAs when we seem set to miss the playoffs. Either Matt Stajan is part of the solution, and you sign him for 3-4 years at 3.5 to 4 M, or he's not and you deal him for a 2nd round pick. I don't think he's part of the solution, so the choice is very simple for me. Do you want to resign him? How much would you pay?

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01-16-2010, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by jfried View Post
That we have a lousy top line. Please explain to me how 2nd round picks change that.
Most of us have largely stayed out of the debate between you and dredeye, and I totally see your point that on the surface it's unlikely that the 2nd round pick the Leafs would get back would surpass what Stajan brings to the table. No disagreements here. But your thinking is purely in black and white, and that's why you can't move past the whole "Stajan is better than a 2nd rounder" stance that you're holding on to right now. If Burke can re-sign Stajan to a fair deal, then by all means do it, but I think most people in this thread are working under the assumption that Stajan isn't going to be in a rush to take a discount to play for a bottom feeder.

First of all, the 2010 draft's strength by all accounts is not at the top of the draft, but rather in it's overall depth. I've read more than a few accounts that this year's draft is supposed to be relatively deep on talent through the 2nd round. If you're trading Stajan for a 2011 2nd rounder, then that's probably a different story.

But that's not the real crux of the argument. Like it or not, the Leafs are largely devoid of high end prospects (other than Kadri). They have a bunch of guys that might make it, like most teams, but their real chance to get good again lies in their ability to produce some homegrown talent. So you can quote stats all you want about the impact rate of 2nd rounders, but the fact remains that quite a few 2nd rounders still end up being productive NHLers. Go take at the 2nd round of the 2005 and 2003 drafts (two other drafts that were considered deep) and tell me that a 2nd rounder couldn't benefit a struggling team like the Leafs.

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01-16-2010, 10:58 AM
  #98
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Every team has lot's of prospects. The difference being a lot of ours aren't that great. I'll disagree with Boyd not being better defensively. Boyd has more hits and more blocked shots while playing 6 minutes less per game. His face off % is all of 1% lower then Stajan's. You aren't trading Stajan to get a Stajan back. The leafs have never been able to find a comfortable place to play Stajan and don't seem to be looking at him long term. So we replace the loss of a center with a more suited 3rd line center and pick up a draft pick while were at it. This makes room for Bozak on the big club and takes Wallin's spot off of the roster.
I think he fits as a 2nd line centerman, personally. More so that Grabovski, anyways.

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01-16-2010, 01:54 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by dredeye View Post
What's left on the blueline is far from awful. Kaberle, Komi, Beauch, White, Schenn, Gunnarson seems pretty good to me. Finger is the only real problem on d.
You cant be serious. The Leafs have the most goals against in the league.
Thats "pretty good" to you?

As for Finger... He's only played 28 games. Saying he's "the only real problem" is more than laughable.

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01-16-2010, 02:53 PM
  #100
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You cant be serious. The Leafs have the most goals against in the league.
Thats "pretty good" to you?

As for Finger... He's only played 28 games. Saying he's "the only real problem" is more than laughable.
Are you serious? You do realize that we have the worst goalie in the NHL right? Finger isn't the only problem he's just the biggest one on d. Our forwards are brutal on the back check and our goalies couldn't bail out a bad play if their lives depended on it. So yeah sadly our d corp is the best part of our team.

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