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M.A. Fleury = Osgood?

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Old
01-15-2010, 02:45 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Doc Holliday View Post
I don't see the problem with the comparisons.

Fleury won his first cup at 25. So did Osgood.

Fleury has been considered to let in a few stinkers at strange times. So did Osgood.

Fleury is playing behind some top end talent. So did Osgood (though much more depth).

Fleury could win another cup with the Penguins and I don't see that as too far-fetched. Osgood won a cup as well.

So personally I don't see the problem with Fleury being compared to a guy who is in top 10 in wins and has two cups to his name (inb4 the system).
Difference is that our defense is not and has never been even remotely comparable to those Wings teams on which Osgood won cups. This season it has been frankly abysmal many times, and especially when missing Gonchar, we just allow far too many quality chances and look out of sync.

Fleury lets in too many weak goals and too often gives up such on the first shot in a game/period. More than anything it seems a focus issue with him. Still time to get that sorted out, and until then his playoff record is pretty comforting. When he is good, he is fantastic. I would say he is a top10 goalie, but a ways off the actual elite - which, as has been pointed out, is very select.

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01-15-2010, 04:32 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by There's only one 66 View Post
Difference is that our defense is not and has never been even remotely comparable to those Wings teams on which Osgood won cups. This season it has been frankly abysmal many times, and especially when missing Gonchar, we just allow far too many quality chances and look out of sync.

Fleury lets in too many weak goals and too often gives up such on the first shot in a game/period. More than anything it seems a focus issue with him. Still time to get that sorted out, and until then his playoff record is pretty comforting. When he is good, he is fantastic. I would say he is a top10 goalie, but a ways off the actual elite - which, as has been pointed out, is very select.
Defense has to do with everything from the abilities of your blueliners, the skillset of your blueliners, your team speed, your forwards' commitment to two-way hockey, the amount of time your forwards are able to hold onto the puck, your team's passing, the system your team is running, your forecheck, and even the amount of goals your team scores in a game.

Just because your defenders aren't the greatest doesn't mean your "defense" isn't.

Even the best teams have times when they're out of sync and times when their goalies seem like swiss cheese.

Goaltending is the most fickle position in the NHL and not usually one you want to bank your future on. There's a reason for that, and that is why I feel goaltending is the most overrated position.

All goalies are fantastic when they're hot. Even Michael Leighton has looked stellar at times for the Flyers this season.

You can throw a ranking number at Fleury all you want, but outside of the top 4-5 (I think there are 4 truly elite goalies this year) everyone up to 15 is relatively arguable for any position if not completely interchangeable in most cases.

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01-15-2010, 05:25 AM
  #53
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I think Incognito got it right. While Fleury's athleticism is ridiculous, he still relies too much on it at times. Part of that may stem from the lack of goalie coaching he got early in his Penguins years. He just seems to lose concentration sometimes which combined with his bad puckhandling (which has improved but still isn't a strength by any means) hands the opposition easy goals. MAF will never be an ultra focused shutout machine like Brodeur, but he usually gets about 5 shutouts a season. That he has none so far is a bit of a fluke.

Anyway, it's great to have a good #1 goalie for the long haul after the revolving door we've had at this position for much of the last decade. Fleury is by far our best goalie since Barrasso. Like him, he doesn't put up gaudy stats but gets the job done when it counts.

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01-15-2010, 05:30 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by FLYLine24 View Post
Fleury is and will be just an average goalie until he can become consistent.

The past month or so he's been brutal at times.

He won a cup...hooray, that doesn't make him a star goalie.
I always love how Rangers fans are talking about Fleury and the general close interest they constantly show for the Pens. that being said,MAF is the opposite of your golden boy,the so called "King". he is better when it matters the most,in the play-offs... this is why I don't have a problem when Fleury gets compared with Osgood.

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01-15-2010, 05:45 AM
  #55
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right now, yes. entire career, no
Well, that kinda goes without saying when one is 37 years old and the other 25.

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01-15-2010, 06:57 AM
  #56
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Fleury probably has the fastest reflexes in the league. He won a cup and still hasn't reached his potential, I think that's a good thing.

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01-15-2010, 07:03 AM
  #57
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Maybe Billy Smith; average in the season, top notch in the playoffs.
I think a lot of this has to do with the team in front of him. There's little reason to think that he is magically bestowed with more talent in April. They Penguins don't have a great defensive defense or really a team commitment to defense. That changes in the playoffs, more shots are blocked, bigger commitment to defense, they know they can't win playoff hockey otherwise. I actually thought their playoff commitment to defense carried through for the first 10 games of this season.

That being said, I think Fleury, like the team, loses a little focus in the regular season. They both gain focus in the playoffs...but even then I think that raises Fleury to Very Good, wouldn't call him top notch yet.

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01-15-2010, 07:18 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Defense has to do with everything from the abilities of your blueliners, the skillset of your blueliners, your team speed, your forwards' commitment to two-way hockey, the amount of time your forwards are able to hold onto the puck, your team's passing, the system your team is running, your forecheck, and even the amount of goals your team scores in a game.
I do not disagree with a word of the above, but I will say instead, that in every single every area you mention, the Pens are and were last year inferior to the RedWings teams that won the cup with Osgood in net. Every single one.
So, thanks for the lecture, but the point stands.

We have Crosby/Malkin/Staal down the middle and that's our competitive advantage. Detroit's cup winners were built on a different platform.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
You can throw a ranking number at Fleury all you want, but outside of the top 4-5 (I think there are 4 truly elite goalies this year) everyone up to 15 is relatively arguable for any position if not completely interchangeable in most cases.
I do not disagree with that either - if what you're saying is that Fleury is not top 4-5, and can at any time be ranked 6th-15th. I will instead say that having the playoff record he does, the wins totals he does, the age he has and the athletic gifts, I think he would be ranked by most as one of the top10 keepers you'd like your team to have.

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01-15-2010, 07:19 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by cynic View Post
I always love how Rangers fans are talking about Fleury and the general close interest they constantly show for the Pens. that being said,MAF is the opposite of your golden boy,the so called "King". he is better when it matters the most,in the play-offs... this is why I don't have a problem when Fleury gets compared with Osgood.
Thing is, Fleury hasn't carried his team to win Stanley Cup. A great team won it. Lundqvist hasn't lost series for his team either, the team lost.

After all this is a team game, don't even bother comparing the current Pens with the current Rags. Pens actually got a chance to win the Cup with "only" above average goaltending, Rags don't. It's a really silly comparison between the two, and also unfair.

Also why did you bring him into a discussion of MAF and Osgood?

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01-15-2010, 07:35 AM
  #60
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Osgood has had 3 Conn Smythe type playoff runs and look who he lost them to: Lidstrom in 1998, Zetterberg in 2008 and Malkin in 2009.

This system thing pisses me off. For those who don't remember in 1999 a loaded DRW team was going for the three peat and were up 2-0 against the Avs and Osgood went down with an injury and DRW lost 4 straight to the Avs. Let look at who was on that team: Yzerman, Lidstrom, Clark, Murphy, Chelios, Shanahan, Fedorov, Larionov and many more very good players.

So it seemed that the GREAT DETROIT SYSTEM couldn't do it with Bill Ranford in net.

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01-15-2010, 07:53 AM
  #61
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There aren't any elite goalies in the league right now. The only two names that come to mind are Brodeur and Luongo.

Brodeur hasn't carried his team past the first round since what... 03?

Luongo has never carried his team past the second round.

Miller is having a great year, but can he do it next year, and the year after?

Elite goalies to me are ones who are great year after year. They don't have a great season followed by a bad one, then a mediocre one, etc etc.

Currently, there aren't any real elite goalies who you can point to and say this is the best guy in the game, and has been for the last 4-5 years. Almost every goalie I can think of right now has warts... be in the inability to get it done in the playoffs, or putting together 2-3 seasons of outstanding play.

With all that said, MAF isn't an elite goalie yet, but he is a money goalie. And that is all that really matters come playoff time.

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01-15-2010, 08:38 AM
  #62
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Fleury doesn't control his rebounds. See the Jan. 2nd game vs. TB and the rebounds he was giving up. It was turrible.

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01-15-2010, 08:46 AM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Defense has to do with everything from the abilities of your blueliners, the skillset of your blueliners, your team speed, your forwards' commitment to two-way hockey, the amount of time your forwards are able to hold onto the puck, your team's passing, the system your team is running, your forecheck, and even the amount of goals your team scores in a game.

Just because your defenders aren't the greatest doesn't mean your "defense" isn't.

Even the best teams have times when they're out of sync and times when their goalies seem like swiss cheese.

Goaltending is the most fickle position in the NHL and not usually one you want to bank your future on. There's a reason for that, and that is why I feel goaltending is the most overrated position.

All goalies are fantastic when they're hot. Even Michael Leighton has looked stellar at times for the Flyers this season.

You can throw a ranking number at Fleury all you want, but outside of the top 4-5 (I think there are 4 truly elite goalies this year) everyone up to 15 is relatively arguable for any position if not completely interchangeable in most cases.
Great post. I agree with everything you said.
As for the bolded part. Look at Carolinas cupteam. No defender worth mentioning as a star. But an awesome teamdefense.

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01-15-2010, 08:52 AM
  #64
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The thing that plagues Fleury is consistency. He has shown (just in the beginning of this season), that he can be a top 5 goaltender in this league, but the problem that is still facing him is that he has a hard time keeping that level of play. When Fleury is high, there isn't a goalie better, but when he's low, you question if he is even deserving of being a starter. As he ages though, the ups will become lower and the downs will become higher, and he'll settle into a level of consistency that, I think, will see him be a top 5 goalie in the league.

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01-15-2010, 08:58 AM
  #65
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i agree. he is nowhere near an elite goalie as some pens fans say he is. he's an average goalie who won a cup on a very good team that could of won with any average goalie.
The Penguins wouldn't have even made it out of the first round last year with any average goalie.

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01-15-2010, 09:01 AM
  #66
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The best quality a goaltender could have is consistency, it's the difference between the elite and the rest who goes up and down alot. Osgood and Fleury are a good comparison, I certainly don't see why they paid him 5+ million dollars, they could have paid him less easily given his stats and overall play.

Anyone who brings up team wins is basically holding up a sign saying that you are stupid, thanks for letting us know I guess.

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01-15-2010, 09:02 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by <Mr Jiggyfly> View Post
There aren't any elite goalies in the league right now. The only two names that come to mind are Brodeur and Luongo.

Brodeur hasn't carried his team past the first round since what... 03?

Luongo has never carried his team past the second round.

Miller is having a great year, but can he do it next year, and the year after?

Elite goalies to me are ones who are great year after year. They don't have a great season followed by a bad one, then a mediocre one, etc etc.

Currently, there aren't any real elite goalies who you can point to and say this is the best guy in the game, and has been for the last 4-5 years. Almost every goalie I can think of right now has warts... be in the inability to get it done in the playoffs, or putting together 2-3 seasons of outstanding play.

With all that said, MAF isn't an elite goalie yet, but he is a money goalie. And that is all that really matters come playoff time.
Lundqvist says HELLO! first NHL goalie to win 30+ games in his first four seasons, if that isn't being elite year after year not sure what is. BTW hes on pace to do it again with 20 wins as of right now and were just at the half mark on season.

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01-15-2010, 09:02 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by PensFanSince1989 View Post
The Penguins wouldn't have even made it out of the first round last year with any average goalie.
Seriously has MAF had a Conn Smythe worthy playoff run? As I stated in an earlier post IMO and in many others opinions Osgood has had 3 CS worthy playoff runs.

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01-15-2010, 09:04 AM
  #69
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Osgood had a Jennings and was runner-up for the vezina by this time in fleury's career. I'd say fleury is lagging at this point... With plenty of time, however.

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01-15-2010, 09:06 AM
  #70
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Seriously has MAF had a Conn Smythe worthy playoff run? As I stated in an earlier post IMO and in many others opinions Osgood has had 3 CS worthy playoff runs.
Considering he had better stats in the 2008 playoffs than many Conn Smythe winning goalies (with a better save % than Osgood has ever achieved throughout the playoffs), I'd say yes.

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01-15-2010, 09:07 AM
  #71
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Seriously has MAF had a Conn Smythe worthy playoff run? As I stated in an earlier post IMO and in many others opinions Osgood has had 3 CS worthy playoff runs.
not really -- his 08 run was good, but you do not see too many cup winning goalies with a .908 SV% nowadays.

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01-15-2010, 09:14 AM
  #72
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not really -- his 08 run was good, but you do not see too many cup winning goalies with a .908 SV% nowadays.
..He had a 0.933% save % in 2008.

Fleury is 6-1 in sudden death overtimes, 2-0 in game 7's, and has been the best goalie in the league from February - April over the past 2 seasons, the march to the playoffs.

He has consistency issues, no doubt. He has stretches in the regular season where his play is mediocre at best, but for the past 3 seasons, he's known exactly when to turn it on, and if he continues to do so, I could care less if he has a stretch in late december, early January that drags his regular season stats down.

There's a reason he was chosen to the Canadian Olympic team.


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01-15-2010, 09:22 AM
  #73
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If Fleury is Osgood, then the Pens will win more often than they lose. What they'll also get is a goalie who has a mental switch come playoff time, and with the Pens forwards, thats all he needs to be.

Now, I see Fleury having a much better career than Osgood, which would put Fleury in the HOF.

But he's young and a lot of things can happen. I'd say comparing Fleury to Osgood at this point is a good problem to have as a Pens fan, because you know Fleury is FAR more athletic than nearly every goalie not named Hasek.

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01-15-2010, 09:22 AM
  #74
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..He had a 0.933% save % in 2008.
He was probably 6th or 7th in line for the conn smythe that year, 3rd if the penguins had won... But no question his stats by themselves were CS worthy...

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01-15-2010, 09:22 AM
  #75
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Originally Posted by PensFanSince1989 View Post
..He had a 0.933% save % in 2008.

Fleury is 6-1 in sudden death overtimes, 2-0 in game 7's, and has been the best goalie in the league from February - April over the past 2 seasons, the march to the playoffs.

He has consistency issues, no doubt. He has stretches in the regular season where his play is mediocre at best, but for the past 3 seasons, he's known exactly when to turn it on, and if he continues to do so, I could care less if he has a stretch in late december, early January that drags his regular season stats down.

There's a reason he was chosen to the Canadian Olympic team.
They needed 3 goalies and no one else is IMO worthy of #3. If they only took 2 goalies he's not going in place of Broduer or Luongo.

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