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M.A. Fleury = Osgood?

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01-15-2010, 09:34 AM
  #76
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Goaltending is the most fickle position in the NHL and not usually one you want to bank your future on. There's a reason for that, and that is why I feel goaltending is the most overrated position.
Well, it is an eternal joy that the Flyers not only don't bank their future on it, but rather refuse to treat the position as key in any way whatsoever .

I say this as one who would instead agree that having an goalie considered to be elite guarantees nothing. If the Devils don't have a credible contender, Brodeur won't make them one. But if they have a team that is within striking distance, he can win it for them. Roy, Hasek and other greats were like that too.
In the cap-age of course you can then debate whether the cost of having such a keeper is worth it over other important positions. I don't know, but I would rather pay to have one who has proven he can do it, than rely on someone you hope can do it.

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01-15-2010, 09:40 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by RedLeader View Post
Anyone who brings up team wins is basically holding up a sign saying that you are stupid, thanks for letting us know I guess.
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Originally Posted by ANTC View Post
Lundqvist says HELLO! first NHL goalie to win 30+ games in his first four seasons, if that isn't being elite year after year not sure what is. BTW hes on pace to do it again with 20 wins as of right now and were just at the half mark on season.
i just love how these posts were back-to-back. BTW the King's current record is 20-21. is that "elite"?

anyway, i think the Fleury/Osgood comparison is a good one carry on.

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01-15-2010, 09:43 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by PensFanSince1989 View Post
..He had a 0.933% save % in 2008.

Fleury is 6-1 in sudden death overtimes, 2-0 in game 7's, and has been the best goalie in the league from February - April over the past 2 seasons, the march to the playoffs.

He has consistency issues, no doubt. He has stretches in the regular season where his play is mediocre at best, but for the past 3 seasons, he's known exactly when to turn it on, and if he continues to do so, I could care less if he has a stretch in late december, early January that drags his regular season stats down.

There's a reason he was chosen to the Canadian Olympic team.
Belarus will have a 3rd goalie also. MAF will not see the ice unless there are injuries or blowout games.

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01-15-2010, 09:45 AM
  #79
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Fleury isn't an elite goalie, but if you watched our series against the Flyers last year you would probably agree that we wouldn't have made it to round two with "any average goalie." He stole two games that the penguins skaters deserved to lose.

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01-15-2010, 09:46 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by yooper wings fan View Post
Belarus will have a 3rd goalie also. MAF will not see the ice unless there are injuries or blowout games.
You have Alzheimer's or something and forget that you already responded to that post like 5 minutes ago?

Or are you really just that upset that Osgood wasn't even considered for that spot?

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01-15-2010, 09:47 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by yooper wings fan View Post
Seriously has MAF had a Conn Smythe worthy playoff run? As I stated in an earlier post IMO and in many others opinions Osgood has had 3 CS worthy playoff runs.
Two years ago he had the stats as if he was a contender for it. But the Wings put on a clinic after Hasek got booted in the Nashville series and allowed less than 24 shots a match on average while piling up shots and goals themselves. They were just too good for anyone to handle.
Pens were entirely overmatched and one of the games we did win was the absolute laugh OT where Fleury had the game of his life. That season I do believe virtually any goalkeeper could have won it for you - including Hasek if you had kept him in there, and more importantly most every other starting goaltender in those playoffs.
Last season.... Osgood had a better claim because the Wings team was not as good as the year before, faced stiffer competition and needed him to be good. Still - not even close to Zetterberg in terms of performance and still further from Geno and Sid. I don't think he was in contention.

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01-15-2010, 09:54 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by There's only one 66 View Post
Two years ago he had the stats as if he was a contender for it. But the Wings put on a clinic after Hasek got booted in the Nashville series and allowed less than 24 shots a match on average while piling up shots and goals themselves. They were just too good for anyone to handle.
Pens were entirely overmatched and one of the games we did win was the absolute laugh OT where Fleury had the game of his life. That season I do believe virtually any goalkeeper could have won it for you - including Hasek if you had kept him in there, and more importantly most every other starting goaltender in those playoffs.
Last season.... Osgood had a better claim because the Wings team was not as good as the year before, faced stiffer competition and needed him to be good. Still - not even close to Zetterberg in terms of performance and still further from Geno and Sid. I don't think he was in contention.
Many (not fans) have said if the DRW won the cup Osgood was getting the CS.

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01-15-2010, 09:57 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by yooper wings fan View Post
Many (not fans) have said if the DRW won the cup Osgood was getting the CS.
well then let's go ahead and award him the "if my team won instead of the team that actually did win fictional Conn Smythe Trophy." Osgood joins a long list of other Stanley Cup losers to claim this prestigious award.

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01-15-2010, 10:01 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Humphrey22 View Post
well then let's go ahead and award him the "if my team won instead of the team that actually did win fictional Conn Smythe Trophy." Osgood joins a long list of other Stanley Cup losers to claim this prestigious award.
Many of your fellow fans claim that Crosby should have won it in 2008.

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01-15-2010, 10:04 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by yooper wings fan View Post
Many of your fellow fans claim that Crosby should have won it in 2008.
good. Crosby and Osgood can both be awarded the "if my team won instead of the team that actually did win fictional Conn Smythe Trophy."

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01-15-2010, 10:05 AM
  #86
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Fleury's not an elite goalie, but he's in that 6-12 range. More than good enough to win a Stanley Cup, obviously. Not good enough to be the MVP on a cup-winner. He's definitely better than Osgood.

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01-15-2010, 10:12 AM
  #87
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A few points. The kid is still young as far as goalies go. He always had skills among the best the NHL has seen in a long time, but has been very inconsistent, making a world class jaw dropping save and then following it up with an equally jaw dropping non-save. But those inconsistencies have been smoothed out more and more with each passing year. That is the point, he has gotten better every year he has been in the league so while he is not more than above average now, it is not being a homer to have legitimate hopes that he will continue to improve and possibly get to elite at some point two to three years from now, when most goalies come into their own. Finally, goalie is one of the harder positions to use mere stats to evaluate. The team you play for does make a difference, the desensemen on that team, the system played. The 'is Brodeur a hall of famer' thread is silly, of course he would be. But his stats would not be quite so sterling if his career had not been on such a defensively aware team. Tom Barrasso was an amazing goalie and gave up a huge amount of goals on those cup winning Pens' teams. If Fleury played for a more defensively aware team some of his growing and flaws no doubt would have been covered better.

Is Fleury an elite goalie now? No he is a work in progress. Is he Osgood? Just as ridiculous as the is Brodeur a hall of famer thread. Fleury is more skilled than Osgood ever could imagine being, plays on a team with defensmen Fleury could only in his dreams imagine playing behind, with a system more defensively aware. And Fleury is still a work in progress, Osgood is not. I could go on and on.

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01-15-2010, 10:26 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan View Post
A few points. The kid is still young as far as goalies go. He always had skills among the best the NHL has seen in a long time, but has been very inconsistent, making a world class jaw dropping save and then following it up with an equally jaw dropping non-save. But those inconsistencies have been smoothed out more and more with each passing year. That is the point, he has gotten better every year he has been in the league so while he is not more than above average now, it is not being a homer to have legitimate hopes that he will continue to improve and possibly get to elite at some point two to three years from now, when most goalies come into their own. Finally, goalie is one of the harder positions to use mere stats to evaluate. The team you play for does make a difference, the desensemen on that team, the system played. The 'is Brodeur a hall of famer' thread is silly, of course he would be. But his stats would not be quite so sterling if his career had not been on such a defensively aware team. Tom Barrasso was an amazing goalie and gave up a huge amount of goals on those cup winning Pens' teams. If Fleury played for a more defensively aware team some of his growing and flaws no doubt would have been covered better.

Is Fleury an elite goalie now? No he is a work in progress. Is he Osgood? Just as ridiculous as the is Brodeur a hall of famer thread. Fleury is more skilled than Osgood ever could imagine being, plays on a team with defensmen Fleury could only in his dreams imagine playing behind, with a system more defensively aware. And Fleury is still a work in progress, Osgood is not. I could go on and on.
I'll say this again, go look at the DRW roster from the 1999 playoffs when they were going for the 3 peat. Osgood was injuried and the DRW lost a 2-0 lead on the Avs. If it's always the system how come Bill Ranford couldn't do it for the DRW.

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01-15-2010, 10:30 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by yooper wings fan View Post
I'll say this again, go look at the DRW roster from the 1999 playoffs when they were going for the 3 peat. Osgood was injuried and the DRW lost a 2-0 lead on the Avs. If it's always the system how come Bill Ranford couldn't do it for the DRW.
If you want to believe that Osgood is more skilled than Fleury go ahead. I am not really slamming Osgood, he was good enough to allow the Wings to win cups and that deserves a lot of credit. But whether or not Osgood was above average or great was a very small part of my points.

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01-15-2010, 10:34 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan View Post
If you want to believe that Osgood is more skilled than Fleury go ahead. I am not really slamming Osgood, he was good enough to allow the Wings to win cups and that deserves a lot of credit. But whether or not Osgood was above average or great was a very small part of my points.
My point is everyone says it the system not Osgood. But when I provide an example where the system should have been able to win with a Conn Smythe winner in Bill Ranford and many blow it off.

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01-15-2010, 10:36 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by ANTC View Post
Lundqvist says HELLO! first NHL goalie to win 30+ games in his first four seasons, if that isn't being elite year after year not sure what is. BTW hes on pace to do it again with 20 wins as of right now and were just at the half mark on season.
People throw the term "elite" around way too easily.

Lundqvist has not shown that he is an elite goalie yet.

An elite goalie wins consistently, year after year. An elite goalie gets it done in the playoffs and is money when it counts the most.

Lundqvist and Luongo have yet to prove they can carry their teams deep into the playoffs. Until they do that, I can't see how they can be labeled elite.

Again, as of today, there really aren't any elite goalies in the league today. Good ones, yes, elite... no.

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01-15-2010, 10:38 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by <Mr Jiggyfly> View Post
People throw the term "elite" around way too easily.

Lundqvist has not shown that he is an elite goalie yet.

An elite goalie wins consistently, year after year. An elite goalie gets it done in the playoffs and is money when it counts the most.

Lundqvist and Luongo have yet to prove they can carry their teams deep into the playoffs. Until they do that, I can't see how they can be labeled elite.

Again, as of today, there really aren't any elite goalies in the league today. Good ones, yes, elite... no.
There is ONLY 1 elite goalie in the NHL today and that is Broduer.

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01-15-2010, 10:38 AM
  #93
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Originally Posted by yooper wings fan View Post
My point is everyone says it the system not Osgood. But when I provide an example where the system should have been able to win with a Conn Smythe winner in Bill Ranford and many blow it off.
You would have to admit that the Wings cosistently over the years Fleury has been in the league have had better defensive defensemen and a better defensive system than the Pens though right?

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01-15-2010, 10:40 AM
  #94
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Thing is, Fleury hasn't carried his team to win Stanley Cup. A great team won it. Lundqvist hasn't lost series for his team either, the team lost.

After all this is a team game, don't even bother comparing the current Pens with the current Rags. Pens actually got a chance to win the Cup with "only" above average goaltending, Rags don't. It's a really silly comparison between the two, and also unfair.

Also why did you bring him into a discussion of MAF and Osgood?
I guess he had nothing to do with stopping 48 of 50 shots in games 6 and 7 right? I mean that was all Crosby, Malkin, and Gonchar. I think he won 3 series deciding games on the road in the playoffs, maybe they should give the wins to Max Talbot. I don't get it, when the guy wins it's because the team carried him, when he loses it's all his fault. And to the OPs comment about shutouts, doesn't Brian Boucher hold the record for consecutive shutouts? Right, would you want him leading your team in the playoffs? Give me the game who wins everytime.

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01-15-2010, 10:45 AM
  #95
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You would have to admit that the Wings cosistently over the years Fleury has been in the league have had better defensive defensemen and a better defensive system than the Pens though right?
I'm not debating that point. My point is the system BS is very overrated and Osgood never getting any credit for his accomplishments is underrated. By many theories the 3 peat for the DRW should have happened even if they had Bob Essensa in net, but it didn't.


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01-15-2010, 11:04 AM
  #96
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Originally Posted by yooper wings fan View Post
There is ONLY 1 elite goalie in the NHL today and that is Broduer.
Yet he hasn't been able to get the Devils to the second round since '03...

Again, there aren't any elite goalies right now.

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01-15-2010, 11:04 AM
  #97
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Difference is that our defense is not and has never been even remotely comparable to those Wings teams on which Osgood won cups. This season it has been frankly abysmal many times, and especially when missing Gonchar, we just allow far too many quality chances and look out of sync.

Fleury lets in too many weak goals and too often gives up such on the first shot in a game/period. More than anything it seems a focus issue with him. Still time to get that sorted out, and until then his playoff record is pretty comforting. When he is good, he is fantastic. I would say he is a top10 goalie, but a ways off the actual elite - which, as has been pointed out, is very select.
I was considering career wise.

Fleury is more athletic (look at some of the saves he has made) and Osgood is a standup goaltender trying desperately to be butterfly who is shorter and not very agile.

However I could see them having similar careers (perhaps Fleury not being put on waivers and leaving Pittsburgh) and I wouldn't think of that as a knock on Fleury.

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01-15-2010, 11:29 AM
  #98
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Originally Posted by There's only one 66 View Post
Two years ago he had the stats as if he was a contender for it. But the Wings put on a clinic after Hasek got booted in the Nashville series and allowed less than 24 shots a match on average while piling up shots and goals themselves. They were just too good for anyone to handle.
Pens were entirely overmatched and one of the games we did win was the absolute laugh OT where Fleury had the game of his life. That season I do believe virtually any goalkeeper could have won it for you - including Hasek if you had kept him in there, and more importantly most every other starting goaltender in those playoffs.
Last season.... Osgood had a better claim because the Wings team was not as good as the year before, faced stiffer competition and needed him to be good. Still - not even close to Zetterberg in terms of performance and still further from Geno and Sid. I don't think he was in contention.
Ah... no. With Dom we wouldn't have made it out of the 1st round. And there is one thing to consider, tending goal for a team that spends the vast majority of the time in the other end isn't exactly easy. Going 10 minutes without facing a shot and then suddenly having one or two or three point blank chances against is hard. Many goalies need somewhat regular action to stay focused and get on a roll.

I agree Osgood was better in '09 than '08, but he was damn good in '08.

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01-15-2010, 11:35 AM
  #99
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Two things I'll give to Fleury is that he is very confident now and challenges shooters a lot more... cutting down on snipes. The other thing, and we saw this last night, he's got probably the second fastest feet in the league after Lundqvist. His lateral movement, kick, and recovery speed are incredible.

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01-15-2010, 11:39 AM
  #100
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I was considering career wise.

Fleury is more athletic (look at some of the saves he has made) and Osgood is a standup goaltender trying desperately to be butterfly who is shorter and not very agile.

However I could see them having similar careers (perhaps Fleury not being put on waivers and leaving Pittsburgh) and I wouldn't think of that as a knock on Fleury.
To be fair, Osgood wasn't exactly placed on waivers. He was making $4-5M/yr, Dom at $8M/yr had just landed in Holland's lap, Legace was making sub-$1M/yr and Kenny had to leave one of the three unprotected for the annual waiver draft. After also adding $10M+/yr in Hull and Robitaille that summer meant a bit of salary had to be cut. Holland wanted to keep Osgood, but he couldn't justify a $4M backup behind Hasek.

Think Giguere, Bryzgalov, Hiller in Anaheim.

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