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M.A. Fleury = Osgood?

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Old
01-15-2010, 11:46 AM
  #101
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Originally Posted by norrisnick View Post
I agree Osgood was better in '09 than '08, but he was damn good in '08.
Well.... he didn't lose it for you, and stood tall when needed. I would agree to that. But its rare that a goalie has to do that little, you must admit. For any of the teams you beat to have booted you, their goalies would have had to be miraculous.
Dallas was the closest you had to a challenge (and that really wasn't one), also because the Pens were an inexperienced team that got utterly schooled in terms of both coaching and what Cup Final intensity is. It wasn't that we struggled to beat Osgood as much as how we struggled to create genuine chances to score.

Hasek lost those games against Nashville giving up goals he plain shouldn't do (point shots festival as I recall). But being better than 42 year old Hasek doesn't make you a Con Smythe when Lidas was that ace and Zetterberg played the way he did. IMO.

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01-15-2010, 11:57 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by There's only one 66 View Post
Well.... he didn't lose it for you, and stood tall when needed. I would agree to that. But its rare that a goalie has to do that little, you must admit. For any of the teams you beat to have booted you, their goalies would have had to be miraculous.
Dallas was the closest you had to a challenge (and that really wasn't one), also because the Pens were an inexperienced team that got utterly schooled in terms of both coaching and what Cup Final intensity is. It wasn't that we struggled to beat Osgood as much as how we struggled to create genuine chances to score.

Hasek lost those games against Nashville giving up goals he plain shouldn't do (point shots festival as I recall). But being better than 42 year old Hasek doesn't make you a Con Smythe when Lidas was that ace and Zetterberg played the way he did. IMO.
OKAY let's look at the doesn't face many shots:

2008 playoffs

Osgood: 1.55 gaa .930 save pct
Fleury: 1.97 gaa .933 save pct

2009 playoffs

Osgood: 2.01 gaa .926 save pct
Fleury: 2.61 gaa .908 save pct

So if you look at the save pct that tells the story. If a team allows very few shots a goalies save pct is effected big time after each goal.

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01-15-2010, 12:06 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by There's only one 66 View Post
Well.... he didn't lose it for you, and stood tall when needed. I would agree to that. But its rare that a goalie has to do that little, you must admit. For any of the teams you beat to have booted you, their goalies would have had to be miraculous.
Dallas was the closest you had to a challenge (and that really wasn't one), also because the Pens were an inexperienced team that got utterly schooled in terms of both coaching and what Cup Final intensity is. It wasn't that we struggled to beat Osgood as much as how we struggled to create genuine chances to score.

Hasek lost those games against Nashville giving up goals he plain shouldn't do (point shots festival as I recall). But being better than 42 year old Hasek doesn't make you a Con Smythe when Lidas was that ace and Zetterberg played the way he did. IMO.
His undoing was allowing goals on consecutive shots in 3 consecutive games. Usually in the tying and go ahead variety IIRC.

That said you're seriously underrating what Osgood did that spring. He was far more than just a guy not losing it for the Wings. He was a calming presence. He stopped all the shots he had to and in many cases he saved someone's ass when a mistake was made (the Wings were NOT perfect, close, but not perfect). No team can conjure up a 1.55GAA and .930SV% for a goalie without said goalie doing more than his fair share. Hell, Hasek in '02 "only" had a 1.86GAA and .920SV% and he had both First Team All Star defensemen (Lidstrom and Chelios on separate pairings) in front of him. Not to mention Fedorov, Yzerman, Draper, etc...

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01-15-2010, 12:10 PM
  #104
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Whoever said Fleury is a winner is dead-on. He wins games and has the ability to make the big save.

IMO, he is more like Osgood than Brodeur, in that he has consistency issues and is less "independently" great (goalies like Brodeur, Lundqvist, or Nabokov can IMO excel in any system while some goalies excel only in certain systems), but when it counts he plays well. I also have never thought of Fleury as a goalie who can "steal" games...still though he is very young...

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01-15-2010, 12:29 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
Fleury is a ton more talented than Osgood...Osgood would have been pretty good if he played from 1979-1994, he looks like a goalie from that time with his style...Fleury has some of the best raw talent to come into the league in quite some time, he goes through stretches like a lot of young goalies (Lundqvist for starters)...

He's still figuring it all out, in the mean time, he's had some epic playoff performances...

On the plus side, he went from "Fleury a bust?" to "Fleury a fluke?" to "Fleury a goalie to be lucky on a good team? (but with mentions of his playoff clutchness)" I can only imagine what happens when he enters his prime..."Fleury a top 5 goalie?" "Fleury a Vezina candidate?" should be interesting, he has all the talent in the world to make it happen...
QFT...This is dead on imo. Thank god people's opinions don't matter. If they did Fluery would have been in the ECHL and Carey Price would already be in the HHOF.

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01-15-2010, 12:32 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by yooper wings fan View Post
Belarus will have a 3rd goalie also. MAF will not see the ice unless there are injuries or blowout games.
And Belarus is the same at Team Canada.

Seriously...you aren't very good at making arguments.

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01-15-2010, 12:34 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by superroyain10 View Post
Whoever said Fleury is a winner is dead-on. He wins games and has the ability to make the big save.

IMO, he is more like Osgood than Brodeur, in that he has consistency issues and is less "independently" great (goalies like Brodeur, Lundqvist, or Nabokov can IMO excel in any system while some goalies excel only in certain systems), but when it counts he plays well. I also have never thought of Fleury as a goalie who can "steal" games...still though he is very young...
Fluery is exactly the kind of goalie who steals games. Look at the playoffs. The reason you don't think of him as that kinda goalie is because he's not always on his game. When he is on his game...He stone's teams.

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01-15-2010, 12:36 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by norrisnick View Post
To be fair, Osgood wasn't exactly placed on waivers. He was making $4-5M/yr, Dom at $8M/yr had just landed in Holland's lap, Legace was making sub-$1M/yr and Kenny had to leave one of the three unprotected for the annual waiver draft. After also adding $10M+/yr in Hull and Robitaille that summer meant a bit of salary had to be cut. Holland wanted to keep Osgood, but he couldn't justify a $4M backup behind Hasek.

Think Giguere, Bryzgalov, Hiller in Anaheim.
I know, I was simply pointing out that Osgood was moved and it is very unlikely the same will happen with Fleury.

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01-15-2010, 12:37 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by mgd525 View Post
Fluery is exactly the kind of goalie who steals games. Look at the playoffs. The reason you don't think of him as that kinda goalie is because he's not always on his game. When he is on his game...He stone's teams.
What I mean is that while on Pittsburgh, he doesn't frequently need to make big save after big save, and he has the offense to back him up. He's rarely overextended, if that makes sense.

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01-15-2010, 12:38 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by JTG32005 View Post
And Belarus is the same at Team Canada.

Seriously...you aren't very good at making arguments.
Belarus beat Sweden in 2002.

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01-15-2010, 12:48 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Doc Holliday View Post
I know, I was simply pointing out that Osgood was moved and it is very unlikely the same will happen with Fleury.
If Brodeur demands a trade to Pittsburgh and there is some young goalie in the pipes that could serve as a backup, it would be similar to what happened to Osgood in '01.

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01-15-2010, 01:13 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by yooper wings fan View Post
They needed 3 goalies and no one else is IMO worthy of #3. If they only took 2 goalies he's not going in place of Broduer or Luongo.
Great point. I remember reading that Yzerman was saying that he wished that there were more Canadians in the NHL because he barely had enough guys to fill out Team Canada. He sure is lucky that there are 3 Canadian goalies in the NHL so he didn't have to look at guys in the AHL or playing in Europe.

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01-15-2010, 01:16 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by ASV 27 View Post
Great point. I remember reading that Yzerman was saying that he wished that there were more Canadians in the NHL because he barely had enough guys to fill out Team Canada. He sure is lucky that there are 3 Canadian goalies in the NHL so he didn't have to look at guys in the AHL or playing in Europe.
You missed the point. At this point this year there isn't another goalie worthy of being selected. If you think there is a goalie worthy please name him.

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01-15-2010, 01:20 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by yooper wings fan View Post
You missed the point. At this point this year there isn't another goalie worthy of being selected. If you think there is a goalie worthy please name him.
Chris "Pure Skill" Osgood would be my starter but that's just me.

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01-15-2010, 01:24 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by ASV 27 View Post
Chris "Pure Skill" Osgood would be my starter but that's just me.
MAF is 19th in gaa and 25th in save pct in the NHL. Is that really "pure skill".

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01-15-2010, 01:26 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by superroyain10 View Post
What I mean is that while on Pittsburgh, he doesn't frequently need to make big save after big save, and he has the offense to back him up. He's rarely overextended, if that makes sense.
This is simply not true. The Pens are constantly giving up great chances against and heavily rely on MAF to keep them in games. It might not seem like it because their offense is so good but if you watch the Pens you'll see at least a few glorious chances against each game.


Last night is a perfect example. The Pens were down 0-2 going into the 3rd and promptly give up a break away to Penner like 2 min in to the 3rd. MAF makes a great poke check and allows the Pens' offense to come back and win the game 3-2. If Penner scores and the Oil goes up 3-0 the Pens lose last night.

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01-15-2010, 01:37 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by yooper wings fan View Post
MAF is 19th in gaa and 25th in save pct in the NHL. Is that really "pure skill".
That's exactly what he is. He has probably the most pure skill of any goaltender in the NHL but lacks consistency in the regular season, like may young goalies.

If you're gonna bring stats into the discussion at least be fair about them and mention that the Pens had a stretch where their top 5 Dmen were all hurt and Gonchar has been out most of the year.

Why not also mention that MAF is 4th in wins?

Why not mention that 9 of the 24 guys above him in save % and 4 of the 18 guys ahead of him in GAA have started less than 20 games and MAF has started 41 games?

Why not say that MAF in 10th in shots against and 11th in saves?


You can make stats show whatever you want (which you do a lot) buy you should tell the whole story instead of just just spewing a player's rank.

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01-15-2010, 01:40 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by ASV 27 View Post
That's exactly what he is. He has probably the most pure skill of any goaltender in the NHL but lacks consistency in the regular season, like may young goalies.

If you're gonna bring stats into the discussion at least be fair about them and mention that the Pens had a stretch where their top 5 Dmen were all hurt and Gonchar has been out most of the year.

Why not also mention that MAF is 4th in wins?

Why not mention that 9 of the 24 guys above him in save % and 4 of the 18 guys ahead of him in GAA have started less than 20 games and MAF has started 41 games?

Why not say that MAF in 10th in shots against and 11th in saves?


You can make stats show whatever you want (which you do a lot) buy you should tell the whole story instead of just just spewing a player's rank.
Wait a second. The DRW had 9 NHL players out and Howards numbers got better. As I've been told many times this year injuries are part of the game and quit whining.

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01-15-2010, 01:49 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by superroyain10 View Post
What I mean is that while on Pittsburgh, he doesn't frequently need to make big save after big save, and he has the offense to back him up. He's rarely overextended, if that makes sense.
You must not watch many of our games this year. His teammates frequently leave him out to dry.

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01-15-2010, 02:04 PM
  #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by superroyain10 View Post
What I mean is that while on Pittsburgh, he doesn't frequently need to make big save after big save, and he has the offense to back him up. He's rarely overextended, if that makes sense.
You sir do not watch Penguins hockey. Look at the last two games, Fleury put on a clinic and won the Pens games they didn't deserve.

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01-15-2010, 02:53 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by yooper wings fan View Post
Belarus beat Sweden in 2002.
8 years ago...

So you're saying Belarus is on Canada's level?

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01-15-2010, 02:54 PM
  #122
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8 years ago...

So you're saying Belarus is on Canada's level?
Do you think Belarus was on the same level as Sweden?

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01-15-2010, 02:58 PM
  #123
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Fleury is far better than Osgood, and he still hasn't even reached his peak. Osgood was never been put in the position of having to win games or series for Detroit, he just didn't have to lose them. You could argue that Fleury won several games for Pittsburgh over the last two years, especially in the late games of the Finals last year.

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01-15-2010, 03:01 PM
  #124
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Fleury is far better than Osgood, and he still hasn't even reached his peak. Osgood was never been put in the position of having to win games or series for Detroit, he just didn't have to lose them. You could argue that Fleury won several games for Pittsburgh over the last two years, especially in the late games of the Finals last year.
You could argue that he lost some of those games too.

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01-15-2010, 03:04 PM
  #125
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Osgood at his best is worse than MA's best

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