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01-13-2010, 08:04 AM
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JLHockeyKnight
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Flyers comments on Burrows/Auger incident.

Obvious, but who didn't expect the Flyers players to understand the feeling. I read an article and a few of them commented.

http://www.delcotimes.com/articles/2...4746017422.txt

Quote:
Originally Posted by Delco Times
For their part, members of the Flyers family are not surprised by the incident, but at the same time, think the situation is bad for the sport.

Four players anonymously told the Daily Times Tuesday that referees hold grudges against players frequently, but they’ve never been told before a game by an official that they were being targeted.

Yet, each of the four said they believed Burrows’ assertion that he was given advance warning that the calls were coming by Auger.

One former Flyers player, who remains employed by the organization, said referees have always had an agenda with certain players, but never would openly admit they were gunning for a player.

“A referee would call the penalty on you and then just stare at you for a minute,” the former player said. “That’s how you knew he was getting back at you for something you said or did. But, he would never say anything. If Auger really did say something (to Burrows) before the game and then followed through on it, that’s bad for the league.”

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01-13-2010, 08:11 AM
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I think Burrows ended up getting fined for saying this.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/blog/puc...urn=nhl,213276

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01-13-2010, 08:17 AM
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Shew. Crazy shiat.

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01-13-2010, 08:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeadPhish5858 View Post
I think Burrows ended up getting fined for saying this.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/blog/puc...urn=nhl,213276
That doesn't surprise me. I also hope that Auger was at least reprimanded for his part in the whole fiasco. I doubt it, but I hope so. We'll never know for sure, because the league will keep a tight lid on it. I'm also betting that it will be a while before Auger refs another Canucks game.

Burrows was perhaps an idiot for going public with it, but what other alternative did he have? If he'd brought it to the Canucks coaches/management, and they requested that the league look into it, absolutely nothing would have happened and no one would know about it.

It's definitely a black mark on the league, but if it causes refs to examine their own motives vs. calling a game properly, the NHL is better in the long run.

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01-13-2010, 08:24 AM
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What a joke, you think the NFL has these types of problems?

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01-13-2010, 08:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
What a joke, you think the NFL has these types of problems?
It's not fair to the NHL for you to compare them to the NFL.

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01-13-2010, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Opus View Post
It's not fair to the NHL for you to compare them to the NFL.
Why not? The NHL should aspire to be as professional and well-run as the NFL.

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01-13-2010, 08:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
What a joke, you think the NFL has these types of problems?
More likely than not, yes . . . you are letting human beings with emotions and memories and stresses make decisions about if someone causes a penalty or not. I bet the NFL absolutely has the same issue, but they have 7 other guys on the field who can work to overturn it, unlike the NHL where whatever the one ref says goes.

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01-13-2010, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie_Girl View Post
That doesn't surprise me. I also hope that Auger was at least reprimanded for his part in the whole fiasco. I doubt it, but I hope so. We'll never know for sure, because the league will keep a tight lid on it. I'm also betting that it will be a while before Auger refs another Canucks game.

Burrows was perhaps an idiot for going public with it, but what other alternative did he have? If he'd brought it to the Canucks coaches/management, and they requested that the league look into it, absolutely nothing would have happened and no one would know about it.

It's definitely a black mark on the league, but if it causes refs to examine their own motives vs. calling a game properly, the NHL is better in the long run.
I think Burrows did the right thing to come public. Your right, if they keep it quiet the league won't do anything about it. The best way to get the point across to the league is to take the personal hit (the fine) and go public with it and make the league look bad. Otherwise incidents like this will continue to happen.

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01-13-2010, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ToTheNet View Post
More likely than not, yes . . . you are letting human beings with emotions and memories and stresses make decisions about if someone causes a penalty or not. I bet the NFL absolutely has the same issue, but they have 7 other guys on the field who can work to overturn it, unlike the NHL where whatever the one ref says goes.
Which is one reason that if the NHL is going to have 2 officials, they should consult with each other before they make each call. I love the thing you see every game where the guy standing next to the play doesn't call a penalty and the guy standing 100 feet away calls one and there's no discussion or anything, it's just an automatic call even if the other official knows that it's wrong.

See in the NFL, if one guy makes a call that another guy disagrees with, they consult and do their best to get it right.

In the NHL, it's more important to preserve the so-called "integrity" of the officials which doesn't actually exist instead of getting the call correct.

Maybe that's why you hardly ever see blown calls in the NFL whereas in the NHL, they happen 3-4 times per game.

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01-13-2010, 08:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
What a joke, you think the NFL has these types of problems?
The NHL also doesn't have the ability to challenge a play, only the officials do (coach can yell, but if the official doesn't want to review it won't get reviewed). Also, there's a good amount of penalties in the NFL (or football in general) which are borderline and can go either way depending on how the ref feels at that moment.

A good example was a couple years ago when the Giants defensemen stopped tackling the QB because he was afraid he'd get a roughing the passer call.

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01-13-2010, 08:33 AM
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2500 is a drop in the bucket for exposing this. auger isn't being officially punished, but you can believe he's going to be watching his step for the next few months.

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01-13-2010, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Why not? The NHL should aspire to be as professional and well-run as the NFL.
Why not? Because the NHL is a joke, that's why.

It's not a fair comparison to the NHL. It's like comparing Taylor Hall to Wayne Gretzky.

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01-13-2010, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JLHockeyKnight View Post
The NHL also doesn't have the ability to challenge a play, only the officials do (coach can yell, but if the official doesn't want to review it won't get reviewed). Also, there's a good amount of penalties in the NFL (or football in general) which are borderline and can go either way depending on how the ref feels at that moment.

A good example was a couple years ago when the Giants defensemen stopped tackling the QB because he was afraid he'd get a roughing the passer call.
The point is that you remember these blown calls because they're so rare and sure, on pass interference, the offense gets the benefit of the doubt, that I'd say that's more based on a league directive after Polian had his cry-fest after 2004 or whenever it was.

I mean, the 2 blown calls you see most, DPI and roughing the passer, are specifically based on (stupid) league policies that go above and beyond giving offense an advantage and protecting the QB.

In the NHL, huge blown calls that affect game outcomes probably happen once a night, it's not like this is a rare thing.

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01-13-2010, 08:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Opus View Post
Why not? Because the NHL is a joke, that's why.

It's not a fair comparison to the NHL. It's like comparing Taylor Hall to Wayne Gretzky.
So we agree, in my original post, I basically said the NHL was a joke and compared it to the NFL to show the gap in professionalism and competency between the 2 leagues.

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01-13-2010, 08:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
So we agree, in my original post, I basically said the NHL was a joke and compared it to the NFL to show the gap in professionalism and competency between the 2 leagues.
Dude. I'm on some wonderful meds...don't confuse me.

The NHL will NEVER be what the NFL is. Never.

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01-13-2010, 08:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
The point is that you remember these blown calls because they're so rare and sure, on pass interference, the offense gets the benefit of the doubt, that I'd say that's more based on a league directive after Polian had his cry-fest after 2004 or whenever it was.

I mean, the 2 blown calls you see most, DPI and roughing the passer, are specifically based on (stupid) league policies that go above and beyond giving offense an advantage and protecting the QB.

In the NHL, huge blown calls that affect game outcomes probably happen once a night, it's not like this is a rare thing.
DPI in the NFL has a HUGE effect on the game because you move to the spot of the foul. If it happens 20 yards down field, you've essentially moved 2 first downs forward. That could do things such as put you in field goal range.

Some games more than others are effected. Do I dare needs to bring up baseball? Where an ump usually blows at least one ball/strike call per batter? Those have a HUGE effect on games too. Having a ball leading to a walk puts a man on, and the next man jacks a HR, it's a 2-run HR vs. a solo HR if that ball was called a strike.

As for the policies, the NHL has horrible policies too. Knock the stick out of a players hand is a slash? Give me a break.

Blown calls aren't as much of an issue as refs gunning for players, which is a huge issue. Auger was intentionally going after Burrows.

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01-13-2010, 08:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Opus View Post
Dude. I'm on some wonderful meds...don't confuse me.

The NHL will NEVER be what the NFL is. Never.
Obviously they'll never have that kind of fanbase or marketing pull, but they should strive to emulate the NFL in other ways. Start by having a consistent policy for suspensions and improving officiating which has gotten drastically worse every year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JLHockeyKnight View Post
DPI in the NFL has a HUGE effect on the game because you move to the spot of the foul. If it happens 20 yards down field, you've essentially moved 2 first downs forward. That could do things such as put you in field goal range.

Some games more than others are effected. Do I dare needs to bring up baseball? Where an ump usually blows at least one ball/strike call per batter? Those have a HUGE effect on games too. Having a ball leading to a walk puts a man on, and the next man jacks a HR, it's a 2-run HR vs. a solo HR if that ball was called a strike.

As for the policies, the NHL has horrible policies too. Knock the stick out of a players hand is a slash? Give me a break.

Blown calls aren't as much of an issue as refs gunning for players, which is a huge issue. Auger was intentionally going after Burrows.
I think the NFL should go the college way and just give a 15 yard penalty unless the spot where the PI took place is less than 15 yards from the line of scrimmage, but again, that's a policy thing, I'm talking directly about the officials competency on the field.

Keep in mind here, I'm talking about how good the officials are. I think the NFL has an extremely high standard for officiating and even MLB officiating, while not great, is miles better than the NHL's. Most umps hold a strike zone pretty well, so you know what you're dealing with.

In the NHL, one hook can be a no-call and then 2 minutes later, the same hook is called. There's no consistency and no accountability and it just reeks. I know I'm biased here, but how the hell did the Flyers give up a damn 5 on 3 in OT of a Stanley Cup playoff game? How the hell does that happen. There should be no penalties in playoff OT unless the penalty prevents or leads to a huge scoring chance, but the NHL doesn't even get a concept that simple.

Officials are a part of the game now instead of being in the background and that's a problem.

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01-13-2010, 09:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JLHockeyKnight View Post
The NHL also doesn't have the ability to challenge a play, only the officials do (coach can yell, but if the official doesn't want to review it won't get reviewed). Also, there's a good amount of penalties in the NFL (or football in general) which are borderline and can go either way depending on how the ref feels at that moment.

A good example was a couple years ago when the Giants defensemen stopped tackling the QB because he was afraid he'd get a roughing the passer call.
Eh, there's always going to be some variance in calls from official to official, but you're not giving enough attention to the institutionalized system in the NFL. Each game in the NFL gets broken down and graded for the officials. If they get dinged for screwing up calls, that hurts their chance of officiating big games, and working the playoffs (money). Even an experienced NFL official like Ed Hochuli's crew missed the playoffs because of botched calls a year ago.

Something like what supposedly happened here with Burrows and Auger would NEVER happen in the NFL, because the official knew that those calls would be reviewed by the league (both calls and non-calls) and he would be graded down for any BS calls and it would impact his chance to work games.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Opus View Post
Why not? Because the NHL is a joke, that's why.

It's not a fair comparison to the NHL. It's like comparing Taylor Hall to Wayne Gretzky.
Eh, all it would take is a strong commish willing to actually systemize a way to grade and improve the officiating. Personally, I think they should just farm it out to the teams and then review and produce tapes and critiques for the officials. If a team doesn't like a call/non-call they put tape of it together and send it to the league...league looks at it and decides if it's legit or sour grapes, and goes over all that with the officials.

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01-13-2010, 09:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Keep in mind here, I'm talking about how good the officials are. I think the NFL has an extremely high standard for officiating and even MLB officiating, while not great, is miles better than the NHL's. Most umps hold a strike zone pretty well, so you know what you're dealing with.
In fairness to the NHL, one problem they have is that very few guys trying to be officials are physically capable of doing it. There are a lot of folks that would be good refs but don't have the skating ability to keep up with play at the NHL level. There was an article (somewhere) talking about this a year or two ago that I read that was pretty interesting...was also addressing the fact that going to the two ref system only exacerbated this problem (obvious point).

It's also a grinding job, so that's going to cut some people out. A lot of NFL refs work day jobs (the aforementioned Ed Hochuli is a lawyer, I believe) because the schedule is pretty convenient...it's literally a side job.

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01-13-2010, 09:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Officials are a part of the game now instead of being in the background and that's a problem.
This is what bothers me the most. People pay to see the players, not the refs. What you said before about penalties in OT is true -- they should only come when they prevent a scoring opportunity (I'm thinking the OT against the Caps in 08, when RJ could've had a breakaway or a 2-on-1). I think that should be the case for all instances. Obviously, if something is egregious, it needs to be called -- like a high stick or something like that, but in no way should the spotlight be on the refs. No ****ing way.

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01-13-2010, 09:14 AM
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It's about time someone called one of these clowns out.

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01-13-2010, 09:19 AM
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Bill Meltzer weighs in. http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?post_id=25491

Quote:
Auger is a referee who already had something of a reputation for holding grudges and making marginal calls against players (or to spite coaches) who get on his bad side. He also angers teams by refusing to explain controversial calls or give slack for legitimate arguments. That's not the behavior of a pro, but it does go on among certain officials.

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01-13-2010, 09:21 AM
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This is what bothers me the most. People pay to see the players, not the refs. What you said before about penalties in OT is true -- they should only come when they prevent a scoring opportunity (I'm thinking the OT against the Caps in 08, when RJ could've had a breakaway or a 2-on-1). I think that should be the case for all instances. Obviously, if something is egregious, it needs to be called -- like a high stick or something like that, but in no way should the spotlight be on the refs. No ****ing way.
Eh, see I think the changing standard in OT is ridiculous. The Caps Game 7 is a case in point, because the assumption of the changing standard leads to fans flipping out when a penalty is called and "ruins the game." Lupul scoring on a PP was a travesty to many neutral fans, and obviously the Caps fans. Never mind that the Caps defensemen had taken down two players at the blue line within 2 minutes that were breaking out and would have gone in on odd-man rushes because the D was out of position.

A penalty is a penalty....call it.

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01-13-2010, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
In fairness to the NHL, one problem they have is that very few guys trying to be officials are physically capable of doing it. There are a lot of folks that would be good refs but don't have the skating ability to keep up with play at the NHL level. There was an article (somewhere) talking about this a year or two ago that I read that was pretty interesting...was also addressing the fact that going to the two ref system only exacerbated this problem (obvious point).

It's also a grinding job, so that's going to cut some people out. A lot of NFL refs work day jobs (the aforementioned Ed Hochuli is a lawyer, I believe) because the schedule is pretty convenient...it's literally a side job.
Your first point about the physical demands of the job is a good one, it is pretty tough for those guys.

But since the NHL is much more of a grind, the NHL needs to take necessary steps such as paying their officials more and constantly evaluating and grading them. One of the things I do like about the NFL is that they'll come out and admit when they've made a mistake, something you'd never catch the NHL doing in 1,000 years.

I believe you mentioned in another post that officials in the NFL have to view footage of the calls they messed up, I'd be shocked if the NHL had any kind of equivalent system. The NHL Office of Officiating or whatever it is essentially exists to protect the officials, not to grade them or to try to improve them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chimrichalds18
This is what bothers me the most. People pay to see the players, not the refs. What you said before about penalties in OT is true -- they should only come when they prevent a scoring opportunity (I'm thinking the OT against the Caps in 08, when RJ could've had a breakaway or a 2-on-1). I think that should be the case for all instances. Obviously, if something is egregious, it needs to be called -- like a high stick or something like that, but in no way should the spotlight be on the refs. No ****ing way.
That Giroux slash (which is not an automatic penalty if the stick breaks) was just ludicrous for that reason. The guy was skating through the neutral zone, Giroux tapped him, his stick broke, no real effect on the play. Yet the refs essentially handed the Pens the game on a platter for it. That's not an automatic call as evidenced earlier this year against the Pens when the same thing happened to Carter in the neutral zone with the official 10 feet away, they just decided to make it in that instance.

Just terrible.

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