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How should Gillis handle Raymond and Kesler?

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Old
01-17-2010, 08:15 PM
  #1
NuxFan09
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How should Gillis handle Raymond and Kesler?

It's well known that these guys are both having career seasons and that they are the backbones of the Canucks' secondary scoring. They form 2/3 of the 2nd line, they both play on the 2nd PP unit, and they both are used on the PK as well. In addition, they're considered to be one of the fastest lines in the leage, especially when they have Grabner on the RW. They also both happen to be RFA's at the end of the season and there's been no indication that either of them have been in talks with Canucks management re: new contracts.

I know there are already two threads about Kesler and Raymond's contracts but the point of this thread is to discuss how you think Gillis will go about handling these two players. Will he view them as a package, much like the Sedins, or will one of them (likely Raymond if this is the case) get snubbed? I'm of the opinion that they should be treated like a package deal. As I mentioned above, they fit like a glove as a pair because of their speed and obility to create offense off the rush and they play together in many situations. I don't think they should get identical contracts like the Sedins but both of them should be at the top of Gillis' list of priorities to sign. Without them, the Canucks don't have a 2nd line at all.

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Old
01-17-2010, 08:44 PM
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Kesler and Raymond will not get identical contract.

I say Kesler will sign long term at least 5yrs. Probably at least 4 million, If they go with a shorter term like 2yrs. Kesler will be unrestricted after that. If he hits the open market you will have teams paying over 5 million. May be even 5.5. Gillis will not let that happen. Don't get me wrong but both are important players but Kesler is a lot more valuable than raymond. I say Kesler is just as valuable as the sedins and Luongo. There is a reason why he was mvp last year.

and Raymond still has accomplish a lot less and probably sign for 1 or 2 yrs and prove himself more and then go for long term contract. probably sign for 2 million, this is first good season and he is restricted.

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01-17-2010, 08:53 PM
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timw33
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Demitra's 4M off the books should alone cover both their raises. That and Luongo's 1.4M reduction helps.

The numbers I used are conservative guesses on their new contracts:

Kesler 1.75M ---> 4.5, 2.75M raise. Hopefully a 5-7 year deal.

Raymond .833 ---> 2M, 1.167M raise. Probably a 2-3 year deal.

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01-17-2010, 08:59 PM
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StrictlyCommercial
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Gillis should wait until after the playoffs to start negotiations. We're building a team to win the cup. No use overpaying guys for their regular seasons, i'd rather wait to see what they do in the big show.

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01-17-2010, 09:06 PM
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I think Kes gets 4.5 and Mason gets 2 million

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01-17-2010, 09:27 PM
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I see Kesler coming in at 4 and Raymond at about 2.25.

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01-17-2010, 09:35 PM
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Peter Griffin
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I think Gillis should sign both players. I think that's a pretty good way to handle the situation.

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Old
01-17-2010, 09:56 PM
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I would say Kesler comes in anywhere between 4.5-5.1 on a 5 year deal.

I would say Raymond comes in from 2 to 3.4 on a 3 year deal.

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01-17-2010, 10:03 PM
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Old
01-17-2010, 10:06 PM
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7 years 4.65 per year for Kesler

3 years 2.5 per year for Raymond

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Old
01-18-2010, 04:00 AM
  #11
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7 year $30.1 million dollar contract for Kesler.

3 year $6.75 million dollar contract for Raymond.

And I'm thinking because both are RFA's, MG can wait till the offseason to re-sign them.

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01-18-2010, 06:28 AM
  #12
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^^

I'd be surprised if he waited til the off season, especially for Kesler. That's a very dangerous game to play, as Dave Nonis already found out for a player like that. People with a rare skillset like Kesler rarely are allowed to be bid on. Raymond is less of a concern for an offer sheet, but it depends a lot on his production here on.

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Old
01-18-2010, 10:15 AM
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R0bert0 Lu0ng0
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyatt4God View Post
I'd be surprised if he waited til the off season, especially for Kesler. That's a very dangerous game to play, as Dave Nonis already found out for a player like that. People with a rare skillset like Kesler rarely are allowed to be bid on.
Teams won't have a chance to offer sheet Kesler. When July 1st rolls around if the Canucks have not already negotiated an extension, they will take him to arbitration and try to work something out before then.

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01-18-2010, 11:37 AM
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And even if teams do put in an offer sheet for Kes it would have to be a substantial over payment not to match. If a team is going to offer Kes franchise centre dollars, like $6m per, they would be making a mistake. I don't see anyone offering anything that takes Gillis more than a heartbeat to match.

Raymond is a bit different. A team could offer him a longish deal up around $3.5-4m per as a calculated risk that we would likely have to walk away from. If that happens, tough luck I guess.

No need to make contract negs a distraction. Lots of time to get them done when the season ends.

Or...tell them to sign 4 year/$8 million deals or we'll trade their butts at the deadline.
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01-18-2010, 11:47 AM
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Raymond, 2-3 years at ~$2.5 million per. Kesler, 4-5 years at ~$4.5 million per. I agree with the notion that Raymond is probably more vulnerable to an offer sheet than Kesler.

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01-18-2010, 11:47 AM
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I would be very shocked if Raymond re-signed here for $2M per season. I think the boat on that amount has long gone.

And if you believe Overhardt about the Kesler negotiations, again, I'd be shocked if he re-signed here for anything below $4M. And even $4M might be a bargain.

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01-18-2010, 11:56 AM
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$4M for a 70-point, Selke calibre forward is most certainly a bargain.

I think a long term deal averaging around $5M a season for Kesler is likely in store, wheras for Raymond we'll probably see a 3-year deal in the $2M to $3M per season range. And I'd like to see MG get on that sooner rather than later.

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01-18-2010, 11:56 AM
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StrictlyCommercial View Post
Gillis should wait until after the playoffs to start negotiations. We're building a team to win the cup. No use overpaying guys for their regular seasons, i'd rather wait to see what they do in the big show.
this could also be a mistake... this was Gillis' message to the Sedins basically... we're not sure if you're the players we're going to build around, and you have to prove it in the playoffs... they did, and they got paid for it.

I think you can take that risk with Raymond, but not with Kesler... he's had poor playoffs to date, but he's the prototypical playoff type player... why wait to see if he actually performs in the playoffs, which only raises his stock, while failing in the playoffs won't hurt his leverage at all, considering he is a RFA and with his accomplishments to date he will get those high $$ whether it's from Vancouver or elsewhere.

IMO both players should be signed soon, but especially Kesler... the longer you wait, the more leverage you give him.

My guess:

Kesler - 4yrs at $4.5mill/yr
Raymond - 2yrs at $2.5mill/yr

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01-18-2010, 02:36 PM
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TLinden16
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I really don't see the problem with Kesler at 4.5-5. A second line with

Raymond (2-3)-Kesler (4.5-5)-_______ (Grabner, Samuelsson) will still be an effective and cheap line.

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Old
01-18-2010, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Kesler View Post
I think Kes gets 4.5 and Mason gets 2 million
ftw!

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Old
01-18-2010, 03:35 PM
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As of January 4, 2010:
Quote:
There has been no talk of a contract extension for Kesler, 25, who has 36 points and is on pace for a career season in the final year of a deal that's paying the centre $1.75 million. "There's nothing going on," said Overhardt.
http://www.theprovince.com/sports/ho...302/story.html

Back in October 2009 Overhardt took the position that Kesler was more valuable in terms of wins than the Sedins if you consider minutes played. And that may be why talks are not progressing.
Quote:
Overhardt last met with Canucks management two weeks ago and it wouldn't be a stretch to suggest that a hometown discount is not on the table.
...
According to Overhardt, the Canucks won 48.28 per cent of their games (12-13-4) when the Sedins had more ice time than Kesler.

They won 74.36 per cent of their games (26-10-3) when the twins had less time than Kesler.
http://www.theprovince.com/sports/Mi...129/story.html

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Old
01-18-2010, 04:18 PM
  #22
HamhuisHip
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
Back in October 2009 Overhardt took the position that Kesler was more valuable in terms of wins than the Sedins if you consider minutes played. And that may be why talks are not progressing.

http://www.theprovince.com/sports/Mi...129/story.html
I think Overhardt is off his rocker to hang his hat on such a stat. This is such a narrow look at the overall success of the Canucks. I imagine there are a slew of stats that both agents and GMs bring up regularly in negotiations that play a role in settling on a contract amount and term.

Will this be one of them? Sure but it will not be the end all be all. IMO.

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Old
01-18-2010, 04:23 PM
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Kesler will be looking for 5mil or so. Unless it's a 10year deal.

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Old
01-18-2010, 04:26 PM
  #24
R0bert0 Lu0ng0
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GroundskeeperWillie View Post
I think Overhardt is off his rocker to hang his hat on such a stat. This is such a narrow look at the overall success of the Canucks. I imagine there are a slew of stats that both agents and GMs bring up regularly in negotiations that play a role in settling on a contract amount and term.
It makes me wonder to what extent one would even want to bother engaging Overhardt in debate over dubious figures like that.

Why get into a big discussion over how and when each player is used, what sort of role they play etc when you can just fax him a contract offer?

At the end of the day, isn't that the end goal for each parties, to agree on a contract and be done with it? It's not like there's an arbitrator involved (yet)..

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Old
01-18-2010, 04:29 PM
  #25
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That's Overhardt's evidence? Way to prove a causation.

Has he done regressions on that or... (we'll never find out I guess ).

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