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Old
01-19-2010, 11:57 AM
  #26
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01-19-2010, 12:14 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
No, he was bad in Buffalo, too. They were just scoring enough to cover it up some. He was +17 with 95 pts. Vanek was +47, and Roy was +37 on that team. Unfortunately, behindthenet wasn't around back then or we could really see his breakdowns.

But defense was absolutely his rap in Buffalo and coming here...he didn't really play it much. Some of it is that he's just too small to lean on anyone at this level with much effect.
Not saying he individually was a better defensive player in Buffalo, the point is that the team's system and style was more suited to him that it wasnt as glaring as it was here. There is a HUGE difference going from a +17 to the -22 he was a couple years ago....Its because our system here doesnt play to his strengths and weaknesses resulting in them "having" to move him to wing. Mabye with Lavi's system results are different, but that only works if the rest of the team starts playing better defensively.

Vanek/Roy were not playing with Briere at even strength which is obviously why their numbers are higher, he was playing with Hecht and Pominville most of the time, but they are also better defensive players than Briere. Of course, Drury was a +1 and he is the one known as the "two-way" guy so are the +/- stats on that team really that relevant? Who knows.

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01-19-2010, 12:16 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by mikedifr View Post
Not saying he individually was a better defensive player in Buffalo, the point is that the team's system and style was more suited to him that it wasnt as glaring as it was here. There is a HUGE difference going from a +17 to the -22 he was a couple years ago....Its because our system here doesnt play to his strengths and weaknesses resulting in them "having" to move him to wing. Mabye with Lavi's system results are different, but that only works if the rest of the team starts playing better defensively.

Vanek/Roy were not playing with Briere at even strength which is obviously why their numbers are higher, he was playing with Hecht and Pominville most of the time, but they are also better defensive players than Briere. Of course, Drury was a +1 and he is the one known as the "two-way" guy so are the +/- stats on that team really that relevant? Who knows.
Well, Drury was playing the Primeau role we had here a few years back. Take care of the other teams top line...if you come out of that neutral or positive, that's a big plus.

Briere's -22 was the product of a few things. Some of it was Stevens' even strength game wasn't as cohesive as they had up there, but it was also because Briere had a weaker team around him and therefore was less insulated from his own weaknesses. That's a team issue, not something particular to his individual game...he was the same player up there that he was here.

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Old
01-19-2010, 12:27 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Well, Drury was playing the Primeau role we had here a few years back. Take care of the other teams top line...if you come out of that neutral or positive, that's a big plus.

Briere's -22 was the product of a few things. Some of it was Stevens' even strength game wasn't as cohesive as they had up there, but it was also because Briere had a weaker team around him and therefore was less insulated from his own weaknesses. That's a team issue, not something particular to his individual game...he was the same player up there that he was here.
Yeah but Drury also had 60+ points and basically the entire team was in the double digit +.....He should have been higher. Either way we can debate +/- for hours so its a moot point.

As for Briere, that was the point I was making Jester. I believe we are damn close to being on the same page. As bad of a defensive player as he may be, you can "hide" that so to speak when the system and players around him complement him. Playing him with Knuble and 8 different LWs per game didnt help matters, and we all know how bad the entire team was at even strength that year.

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01-19-2010, 12:44 PM
  #30
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With regards to Giroux, I still hold the unpopular opinion that he would be a great set up man for Carter. Carter and Giroux are both puck hogs, but I think it would benefit Carter to have someone else on his line that wants the puck all the time. With a net crasher like Hartnell to compliment them, I believe they'd be a dangerous trio to be on the ice with.

I know it's not likely to happen, and Carter works very well with Briere, but I'll be the happiest guy in Flyer Land if Giroux and Carter ever get significant ice time together.

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Old
01-19-2010, 09:05 PM
  #31
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I think JVR is the answer for next year. He needs to stay where he is right now. Id like to see Powe moved up though. He is very effective on the forecheck and seems to finish his opportunities. Myabe demote hartenll and promote powe?
C'mon guys...give me some props for this one.

Thanks for listening Lavi!!!

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Old
01-19-2010, 09:16 PM
  #32
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Old
01-19-2010, 09:27 PM
  #33
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I think I said this before, but I still think Giroux has a much brighter future in the middle than on the outside.

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Old
01-19-2010, 09:42 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Gagne has 19 pts in 23 games (67 pt pace in an 82 game season)...in a season that has been plagued by injuries. His hands clearly are not all the way there as of now, but lets not make it out like he's a mess.
I'm not trying to make it out like he is a mess. I just don't think he'll be worth the money he is making after next year when his contract is up. I guess the thing that really bothers me is his injury problems, and how his injuries have effected his game. He is a fragile guy, and I'd rather not see the team give out another 5 mil + contract for a guy who may be on the shelf for extended periods.

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Old
01-19-2010, 11:11 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
I think I said this before, but I still think Giroux has a much brighter future in the middle than on the outside.
I've been saying that all year longer. Every time he's been put at center, he's been visibly better.

I don't think the Richards line will start producing until Richards himself starts producing, but I see that Giroux line doing very well.

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Old
01-21-2010, 09:05 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by TheKingPin View Post
C'mon guys...give me some props for this one.

Thanks for listening Lavi!!!
Props! I actually said it too...I just wants sure he would break up the 3rd line that was so effective! Way to go Lavi!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
I think I said this before, but I still think Giroux has a much brighter future in the middle than on the outside.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
I've been saying that all year longer. Every time he's been put at center, he's been visibly better.

I don't think the Richards line will start producing until Richards himself starts producing, but I see that Giroux line doing very well.
He may, although he was certainly a great winger in junior. I honestly dont think the position matters as much as the other players on the ice with him. I dont think he works with Richards cause they both like to carry the puck and dangle, hence the stupid turnovers on that line.....If he had a sniper on the LW and a center who just played a gritty game and didnt care about having the puck, he may work at RW as well.....I mentioned this before but like the Kariya/Rucchin/Selanne line back in the day. Of course he works at center as well, but then you have to move Carter in the next year or so because I think Giroux is much better than a 3rd line center. If they do move Carter, fine....but then that 3rd line center better have some size.

How about trading Carter to Phoenix or LA for some package including Hanzal or Stoll? We get a some size to replace him in the middle, a true shut down 3rd line center and whatever else we get in the deal. Grioux moves into the #2 center spot. Then you go either"

Gagne Richards Hartnell
JVR Giroux Briere

or

Hartnell Richards Briere
Gagne Giroux JVR

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Old
01-21-2010, 09:11 AM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikedifr View Post
Props! I actually said it too...I just wants sure he would break up the 3rd line that was so effective! Way to go Lavi!





He may, although he was certainly a great winger in junior. I honestly dont think the position matters as much as the other players on the ice with him. I dont think he works with Richards cause they both like to carry the puck and dangle, hence the stupid turnovers on that line.....If he had a sniper on the LW and a center who just played a gritty game and didnt care about having the puck, he may work at RW as well.....I mentioned this before but like the Kariya/Rucchin/Selanne line back in the day. Of course he works at center as well, but then you have to move Carter in the next year or so because I think Giroux is much better than a 3rd line center. If they do move Carter, fine....but then that 3rd line center better have some size.

How about trading Carter to Phoenix or LA for some package including Hanzal or Stoll? We get a some size to replace him in the middle, a true shut down 3rd line center and whatever else we get in the deal. Grioux moves into the #2 center spot. Then you go either"

Gagne Richards Hartnell
JVR Giroux Briere

or

Hartnell Richards Briere
Gagne Giroux JVR
Cool, a 3rd line center with the added Bonus of losing our best goal scorer!! Awesome idea!


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Old
01-21-2010, 09:29 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
Cool, a 3rd line center with the added Bonus of losing our best goal scorer!! Awesome idea!

Dont be a moron....#1, it obviously wouldnt be a 1-1 deal....#2 If Carter is moved, it is going to be for cap reasons, in which case we arent going to take a player with his salary or more back and #3, I am not saying we should move him but if we decide that Giroux is going to be a center in the NHL, he needs to be in the top 6. So do you trade Richards instead of Carter???

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Old
01-21-2010, 09:43 AM
  #39
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Dont be a moron....#1, it obviously wouldnt be a 1-1 deal....#2 If Carter is moved, it is going to be for cap reasons, in which case we arent going to take a player with his salary or more back and #3, I am not saying we should move him but if we decide that Giroux is going to be a center in the NHL, he needs to be in the top 6. So do you trade Richards instead of Carter???
#1 A moron is a person who chooses to move our top scorer for an overpaid 3rd liner like Stoll and prospects. You want to save cap space by acquiring a 3rd line C who makes $3.6???

#2 No way no how should Carter be moved regardless. Even in this cap world, Carter MUST be kept. He is the kinda guy who plays well even if he had crap linemates (anyone see how Hartnell has played when he isn't in the paint?).

#3 IF we decide to keep Giroux on this team (which I support), he will need to prove he can play a wingers role at some point. The same position he was drafted at and played most of his career. I have ZERO problem employing a Pittsburgh system and rolling out 3 lines with Giroux, Richards and Carter if we have too, even if we sacrifice Gagne or Hartnell to do it. Ideally Giroux would improve and look better on the wing, otherwise I have no issue letting him or Richie center a third line with Giroux at C on the PP and Richie on point. Sounds perfect.

In Lavi's system, players literally swap positions up front, which may be part of the reason for Carter's resurgence as Hartnell has been able to sit in front of the net and Carter and Briere are allowed to roam a lot more. I don't see why not Giroux and Richards can't click if given more time. Even if they don't, I still run 3 good Centers.

Gagne-Richards-Powe sniper/playmaker/checker
Hartnell-Carter-Briere power forward and checker/sniper/playmaker
JVR-Giroux-Asham power forward and sniper/playmaker/checker
Carcillo-Betts-Lappy grind grind grind

is very good in my honest opinion. I love the idea of getting some good checking on each line, yet I do cringe watching some of Powe's shots. That's another story though. I say we tell Gagne that if he is unwilling to take a pay cut, we would likely have to move him. He is good defensively and has a nose for the net, but he can be more easily replaced in my opinion then Giroux, Richards or Carter IMHO.

Giroux, Richards and Carter dominate the puck and just need roleplayers. Gagne is a role player, granted a VERY good one, but still a role player. He can't make his own chances.

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Old
01-21-2010, 10:51 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
#1 A moron is a person who chooses to move our top scorer for an overpaid 3rd liner like Stoll and prospects. You want to save cap space by acquiring a 3rd line C who makes $3.6???

#2 No way no how should Carter be moved regardless. Even in this cap world, Carter MUST be kept. He is the kinda guy who plays well even if he had crap linemates (anyone see how Hartnell has played when he isn't in the paint?).

#3 IF we decide to keep Giroux on this team (which I support), he will need to prove he can play a wingers role at some point. The same position he was drafted at and played most of his career. I have ZERO problem employing a Pittsburgh system and rolling out 3 lines with Giroux, Richards and Carter if we have too, even if we sacrifice Gagne or Hartnell to do it. Ideally Giroux would improve and look better on the wing, otherwise I have no issue letting him or Richie center a third line with Giroux at C on the PP and Richie on point. Sounds perfect.

In Lavi's system, players literally swap positions up front, which may be part of the reason for Carter's resurgence as Hartnell has been able to sit in front of the net and Carter and Briere are allowed to roam a lot more. I don't see why not Giroux and Richards can't click if given more time. Even if they don't, I still run 3 good Centers.

Gagne-Richards-Powe sniper/playmaker/checker
Hartnell-Carter-Briere power forward and checker/sniper/playmaker
JVR-Giroux-Asham power forward and sniper/playmaker/checker
Carcillo-Betts-Lappy grind grind grind

is very good in my honest opinion. I love the idea of getting some good checking on each line, yet I do cringe watching some of Powe's shots. That's another story though. I say we tell Gagne that if he is unwilling to take a pay cut, we would likely have to move him. He is good defensively and has a nose for the net, but he can be more easily replaced in my opinion then Giroux, Richards or Carter IMHO.

Giroux, Richards and Carter dominate the puck and just need roleplayers. Gagne is a role player, granted a VERY good one, but still a role player. He can't make his own chances.
Wow, you are completely missing the point. You are arguing with someone that agrees with you 100% (which makes no sense).....I just happen to be thinking big picture, and what the team MIGHT decide to do in the future. Its called hypothetical. Unless Holmgren all of a sudden becomes the most creative GM ever, because of the ridiculous cap situation, one of Hartnell or Carter is most likely gone next year. Briere or Gagne the following year, I am simply saying what I would do if Carter was the one moved because you seriously deplete your size up the middle.

I am all for Grioux being on the wing, I have been saying that for the entire year now, go back and read some of my posts. However, it is obvious that unless Richards changes his game somewhat, the two of them do not work.

If the team decides to get rid of Briere instead of Carter and move Giroux to that spot, fine, that works too. However, Giroux and JVR are only going to be able to be on the "3rd line" for so long before we have to give them a **** load of money. Something has to give.

I still say getting rid of Hartnell is a mistake....Our top 9 becomes HORRIBLY soft without him unless you are replacing him with another powerforward and where are we getting that without spending the same amount of money?

The Pens may do the 3 center thing, and I am not opposed to that at all, however, several key differences between us and the Pens...we are built two completely different ways

1) Their top 2 are ELITE players! Richards and Carter, while I love them both, are not the caliber of Malkin/Crosby.
2) Staal came into the NHL essentially already an elite shutdown center which is something we dont have. Hence why I said if Carter was moved, and if we go with Richards and Giroux as our top two centers than we need to replace Carter's size in the middle and get someone with shut down ability.
3) They have an elite goalie as well.

You are debating/arguing with the wrong person, and you contradict yourself completely on top of that. You claim I am a moron for wanting to move our top center for an overpaid third line center, HOWEVER, you ignore the fact that I was not talking about a 1-1 trade....and 2, you claim you dont want a "3rd center" making $3.6 million......What the hell do you think Staal is making on Pitt??? And why do think Maxim Talbot was a top 6 winger last year??? And if you continue to go with Giroux/Carter/Richards up the middle and Giroux starts scoring like we know he can he will make at least $3.6 within a couple years, and Carter is certainly going to get an increase from $5.....Which means, you are going to have to completely change the way this team is built and eliminate salary from our wingers like Pittsburgh has done.....However, our top two centers dont carry the team like theirs do and our goalie position is nowhere near theirs.

Its apples vs. oranges.

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Old
01-21-2010, 10:57 AM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikedifr View Post
Props! I actually said it too...I just wants sure he would break up the 3rd line that was so effective! Way to go Lavi!





He may, although he was certainly a great winger in junior. I honestly dont think the position matters as much as the other players on the ice with him. I dont think he works with Richards cause they both like to carry the puck and dangle, hence the stupid turnovers on that line.....If he had a sniper on the LW and a center who just played a gritty game and didnt care about having the puck, he may work at RW as well.....I mentioned this before but like the Kariya/Rucchin/Selanne line back in the day. Of course he works at center as well, but then you have to move Carter in the next year or so because I think Giroux is much better than a 3rd line center. If they do move Carter, fine....but then that 3rd line center better have some size.

How about trading Carter to Phoenix or LA for some package including Hanzal or Stoll? We get a some size to replace him in the middle, a true shut down 3rd line center and whatever else we get in the deal. Grioux moves into the #2 center spot. Then you go either"

Gagne Richards Hartnell
JVR Giroux Briere

or

Hartnell Richards Briere
Gagne Giroux JVR
Haha thanks guys. Lets hope that line can keep it up. The beginning of that first period was pure domination.

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Old
01-30-2010, 03:02 PM
  #42
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I know the lines have changed now, probably for the better, but these stats simply should not be ignored.

In the month of January, plus minus for these three:
Richards: -8
Giroux: -9
Gagne: -10

They really need to step it up in the rest of the season.

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Old
01-30-2010, 03:10 PM
  #43
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I think we need to split the GRG line up. The only line I absolutely do not want to touch right now is the Carcillo-Betts-Laperriere line.

Briere-Richards-Powe
Gagne-Carter-Hartnell
Asham-Giroux-JVR
Carcillo-Betts-Laperriere

I like that Giroux line; they've shown decent chemistry between each other and Asham would be great riding shotgun with our young guns.

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