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Old
01-18-2010, 12:41 AM
  #101
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Originally Posted by SK13 View Post
Curious mix of self-loathing and whining going on in this thread.

Didn't see these comments when it was Chicago, LA, Pittsburgh and Washington in the basement. No, only when Edmonton sucks should it mean relegation and we must ***** about the fairness to the other teams.

You people are more frustrating than the Oilers have ever been.
Well I've certainly complained in the past about teams like Pittsburgh and Ottawa getting top picks.

Rewarding futility in the context of professional competition is an exercise in nonsense.

It makes for competing objectives when the primary goal is supposed to be to win.

I really don't care what club it applies to the NHL draft setup is illogical.

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01-18-2010, 12:42 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by SK13 View Post
How is anything fair? Probably a little too deep a question for a hockey message board
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Originally Posted by SK13 View Post
How is it fair that we can't lure a UFA due to perceptions (some false, some true) about our City? This point is irrelevant in the discussion at hand, but since you bring it up, I would say the Oilers need to work on their marketing to players (and I don't mean showing them DVDs about the city), specifically on the point of deciding which type of players to persue

How do we come out of that without severely bettering the team and it's chances of winning? I don't understand what point you are going for with this question, yes I suppose if they could lure UFAs more easily it would improve the chances of winning, so try harder, or more appropriately, try smarter.

How do we do that without high draft selections? Think outside the box.

How do budget teams compete with the New Yorks and Philadelphia's who can bury more money than other teams can spend on any one player? This is a matter the NHL also needs to focus on, getting all teams to the level of the cap (however they feel is best) or cutting those ones that cannot.
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I can see a system where every NON-playoff team gets a crack at #1 overall. But I don't see how it's fair to exclude teams like Florida who aren't allowed to spend the money to fix some of the holes on their roster, in spite of a the cap-space to do it and their bubble status. Maybe something closer to the Sidney Crosby sweepsakes in 2005.

And I'm certainly not going to cry about the Oilers getting a lottery pick.

This is a different problem, evidently all teams need to be able to spend to the cap in order for the system to work, but that is another issue for the NHL (one that revolves around national TV contracts vs. failing franchises)
I hope that makes some sense.

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01-18-2010, 12:48 AM
  #103
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I honestly don't think the whole AHL/NHL relagation thing would work. Theres a much greater disparity between a 30th place team in the NHL and a top team in the AHL as compared to a bottom Premier team and a Top Division 1 team. Also would the arena sizes would come into play and ticket sales yada yada.

Seriously if MAP is over a PPG in the AHL, could you imagine what Hemsky would do.
The reason relegation and promotion can be so successful is that Orgs and players can be united in desperation to battle to stay at the top or strive to get to the top league.

The Org suddenly has the prospects of greater or lesser revenues based on performance in the context of competitive pro sport.

Relegation and promotion further games and results still being meaningful to the end.

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01-18-2010, 12:48 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Ghostbuster View Post
I honestly don't think the whole AHL/NHL relagation thing would work. Theres a much greater disparity between a 30th place team in the NHL and a top team in the AHL as compared to a bottom Premier team and a Top Division 1 team. Also would the arena sizes would come into play and ticket sales yada yada.

Seriously if MAP is over a PPG in the AHL, could you imagine what Hemsky would do.
Then I guess the stay in the "A" would be a short one. I dont think you would see incompetent management being carried by an organization like you do now.

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01-18-2010, 12:49 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by kruezer View Post
I hope that makes some sense.
Your abstract answers bring up more issues than solutions.

"Improve our marketing?" - no amount of marketing is going to trump the success of the team or the way the media picks up on the issues in the past. In terms of other places that have these issues (like Buffalo), you're telling them to spend more money on them which is not a realistic fix.

"Try harder" - The players who "try harder", "earn more money" which creates problems for everyone involved.

"Think outside the box" - Okay. Here's me: Outside the box. Draft and develop where you land, probably only getting the type of complimentary talent we've gotten until you're lucky enough to get a keeper. Or else forsake prospects all together and throw $10 million at every major UFA available until one bites. Or a team made mostly out of 30 year old two way players.

Detroit is the only team who's really been able to build themselves up late in the draft, and really, it was two drafts were they landed eventual superstars and subsequent drafts were they picked up players who they developed at length to be the complimentary talent. Great tactic. All we need to do now is hire the only man to successfully do it on a consistent basis: Jim Nill.

Oh, and stumble upon a Nick Lidstrom (which Detroit did).


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01-18-2010, 12:51 AM
  #106
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Intentional tank? Who gives a crap? Does the NHL pay back the team for lost revenue when their team blows? Yeah, I didn't think so.

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01-18-2010, 12:53 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Dave Hodges comment isn't even thought out.

He's accusing the Oilers of tanking and using the fans being happy about losses as evidence of the org or team deciding on a tanking direction?!?

Um,...why are we even talking about this?
Because he's jealous that our fans know that this is the route to go instead of what dumb **** Burke did?

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01-18-2010, 12:59 AM
  #108
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Hodge was a proponent of the shootout being used in the Stanley Cup playoffs because he's sick of marathon overtimes. He's an idiot.
Maybe he doesn't want to cut into the news.

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01-18-2010, 01:00 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
The reason relegation and promotion can be so successful is that Orgs and players can be united in desperation to battle to stay at the top or strive to get to the top league.

The Org suddenly has the prospects of greater or lesser revenues based on performance in the context of competitive pro sport.

Relegation and promotion further games and results still being meaningful to the end.
Yeah I agree fully. I just don't think the depth of hockey players is great enough to have competitive hockey on both levels. Soccer on the otherhand is the largest sport in the world, which in turn results in a greater depth in the sport.

Something other than a the current lottery setup for example is giving the odds of winning the lottery to the 5th worse team the highest. So the bottom 4 teams will strive to make it to that 5th spot. It atleast promotes competitive hockey on a smaller scale.

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01-18-2010, 01:06 AM
  #110
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Do you guys really think the players are tanking on purpose?

I don't think our players give a damn about getting Seguin or Hall. A lot of the players won't even be here in the next couple of years so getting a good pick really gives them no benefit.

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01-18-2010, 01:14 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Hemskyfanboy83 View Post
Do you guys really think the players are tanking on purpose?

I don't think our players give a damn about getting Seguin or Hall. A lot of the players won't even be here in the next couple of years so getting a good pick really gives them no benefit.
No, the players wouldnt tank. They are shorthanded, outmatched, have terrible goaltending (no fault of either goalie, the fault for that lies with management really) and are in a psychological funk. The tank is always facilitated by management, either by not making moves to help the team or usually by selling of the better players for future assets.

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01-18-2010, 01:24 AM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SK13 View Post
Curious mix of self-loathing and whining going on in this thread.

Didn't see these comments when it was Chicago, LA, Pittsburgh and Washington in the basement. No, only when Edmonton sucks should it mean relegation and we must ***** about the fairness to the other teams.

You people are more frustrating than the Oilers have ever been.
Didn't see Hodge whine about it when it was Chicago, LA, Pittsburgh and Washington in the basement either.

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01-18-2010, 01:24 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
No, the players wouldnt tank. They are shorthanded, outmatched, have terrible goaltending (no fault of either goalie, the fault for that lies with management really) and are in a psychological funk. The tank is always facilitated by management, either by not making moves to help the team or usually by selling of the better players for future assets.
That said once the losing culture sets in it's hard to break. This was a team that was content with mediocrity for years so mediocrity to complete crap isn't that big of a step. Especially when you have the injury excuse at your disposal.

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01-18-2010, 01:24 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Dave Hodges comment isn't even thought out.

He's accusing the Oilers of tanking and using the fans being happy about losses as evidence of the org or team deciding on a tanking direction?!?

Um,...why are we even talking about this?
What, you want another thread on Horcoff or Stauffer or something?

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01-18-2010, 01:25 AM
  #115
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Depends on the league (as he did mention multiple leagues).
Well, we're talking mainly about the NHL here.

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01-18-2010, 01:29 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by SK13 View Post
Your abstract answers bring up more issues than solutions.

"Improve our marketing?" - no amount of marketing is going to trump the success of the team or the way the media picks up on the issues in the past. In terms of other places that have these issues (like Buffalo), you're telling them to spend more money on them which is not a realistic fix.

"Try harder" - The players who "try harder", "earn more money" which creates problems for everyone involved.

"Think outside the box" - Okay. Here's me: Outside the box. Draft and develop where you land, probably only getting the type of complimentary talent we've gotten until you're lucky enough to get a keeper. Or else forsake prospects all together and throw $10 million at every major UFA available until one bites. Or a team made mostly out of 30 year old two way players.

Detroit is the only team who's really been able to build themselves up late in the draft, and really, it was two drafts were they landed eventual superstars and subsequent drafts were they picked up players who they developed at length to be the complimentary talent. Great tactic. All we need to do now is hire the only man to successfully do it on a consistent basis: Jim Nill.

Oh, and stumble upon a Nick Lidstrom (which Detroit did).
First of all the discussion is how the league can make the draft more fair, not how to solve any particular teams problems.

I think your second paragraph is just a defeatist attitude. Of course to make things work the league have to make sure that all teams are on reasonably level financial footing, I agree, but that is a deeper question that what we are talking about. That said I don't mean marketing to fans I mean marketing to players, which costs only the time of the management team that is already in place. The Oilers need to create a team culture that is enticing to a certain demographic of player and pursue that type of player.

Your third paragraph is just dumb and you know it, no amount of quotation marks can save it. Creating a good team (in a league with a level financial playing field) will require paying players and if they perform better and earn more money so be it, of course this means players will have to come and go. Its just complaining for the sake of complaining to bring it up.

I wouldn't call any of those ideas really outside the box at all, that is basically just a list of three main ways teams try and compete.

Your last point is just irrelevant in a situation where all 30 teams are randomly placed in a draft order and financially they are equal. Also, stating that Detroit has Jim Nill and how can people compete with that, is just being defeatist again.

There is going to be a some luck involved in any team being good or being bad in hockey, that is just the nature of the situation.

I think you are putting the cart before the horse with this idea. If all teams are in the same position (unsure of where they will draft every year) then improving can be done through shrewd trades, shrewd free agent signings, improved coaching tactics, or innovation (like how about testing how many players need to be dressed each night? spend the extra money million or two on upgrading a top liner, or take a Detroit approach and spend no money on goaltending, or to steal a half-serious Gladwell idea and go off the map and make the culture of your team 'clean living' and try and attract the religious players in the league, and there are of course a million different coaching tactics you can use, like using 5 forwards on the PP, etc.). This would then mean that the teams would compete only on management, any extra influx of talent would be completely random and could equally happen to any organization, how could you begrudge them that?

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01-18-2010, 01:38 AM
  #117
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I just flipped my pencil.

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01-18-2010, 01:50 AM
  #118
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Where was Dave Hodge's moral outrage over this last year when the Islanders started using third tier goalies after Rick DiPietro went down? Even though there were better goalies out there.

Seriously, this is the weakest thing I've ever heard out of a talking head before. The organization is tanking on purpose because the fans want it? The fans want a Stanley Cup. Where is it?

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01-18-2010, 02:11 AM
  #119
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Bingo. Why reward incompetence at all?

This is a tired incentive designed to prop up pathetic franchises and conspire for them to be eventually successful at least on ice.

In Euro football they have relegation. Seems a logical consequence for futility. Pull the trap door.

Here we reward abject failure.

Go figure.
Two of the oldest, and prior to their few terrible seasons, most well supported teams saw huge benefit from having top picks. Let's have a look at the franchises in the past 10 years that have had top 3 picks- NYI, COL,TB, LA, ATL, CHI, PHI, PHX, STL, PIT, ANA, CAR, WAS, FLO, CBJ, OTT, MIN. A total of 17. Go Back 3 extra years and you can add BOS, SJ, VAN, NSH. That means that those 39 picks were split among over 2/3 of the league. Arguably only two of those teams are out of playoff contention currently and 4 of them are division leaders. The draft does EXACTLY what you want it to do... even the playing field. The NHL would never survive if it let teams like COL, CHI, PHI, PIT, BOS, SJ, MIN, and VAN wallow at the bottom of the standings.
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It would be spectacular to watch eh? I agree completely, the entertainment value of the draft would skyrocket.

And to the comment someone else in the thread made about the Red Wings & Oilers both having equal shots at the number 1 pick, I would say how is it fair now? I could think of nothing more fair than making the number 1 draft selection be decided by chance rather than poor performance.

For example, if Carolina finishes last this year and got say, the 30th overall pick, would that be unfair? No, the situation would be simple, Carolina should have performed better, they should now spend their time trying to improve their team.
That's assinine. High picks allow teams to gather traction. How is a team going to improve if they are the worst in the league and have the worst talent pool in the NHL? The only thing that is going to happen is that the good get better and the bad get worse. A team that finishes at the bottom isn't exactly a huge attraction for FAs.

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No league that respects its paying fans and the credibility of competition in its any game product should subject customers to the dynamic of "losing to win" at a later date.

This is high cost professional entertainment. When theres any indication a club has given up half way through the season they really aren't delivering anything resembling a satisfactory product to the paying fans that present season.

There's absolutely no "fair" in the present arrangement to the paying fans.
And even though it's blatantly obvious when a team is tanking in the NFL (or not playing their best players three weeks before the playoffs) the fans still come out paying for tickets and NFL Sunday Ticket in higher numbers than any other professional sport. And the NFL doesn't even have a lottery. The worst team simply gets the best pick.

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The reason relegation and promotion can be so successful is that Orgs and players can be united in desperation to battle to stay at the top or strive to get to the top league.

The Org suddenly has the prospects of greater or lesser revenues based on performance in the context of competitive pro sport.

Relegation and promotion further games and results still being meaningful to the end.
Yeah and only 4 teams ever compete for the championship. That sounds exciting. A high draft pick or two can save a franchise and the NHL has several franchises already teetering on the edge. They certainly don't need Pittsburgh, Chicago, and Colorado packing up and moving to Kansas City, Las Vegas, and Oklahoma.

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01-18-2010, 02:19 AM
  #120
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I don't think the whole "14 teams who miss the playoffs should have an equal chance at the first overall pick" idea is a very good one. Look at what happened in 06'. We made the playoffs by what 1 point? and went to the Stanley Cup final. We lose one more game and we would have as good of a chance as anyone to get the first overall pick.

And even with that system its not going to stop teams from tanking if they choose. finishing 30th you are still guaranteed a #1 or #2 pick Seguin or Hall. Both are tremendous prospects and it is undetermined who will be the #1 pick. Do you think they are going to try to finish 25th so they can get a #1 or #6 pick?

If the season ended right now the Detroit Red Wings would have an equal chance of acquiring the 1st overall pick as the Oilers. How is that fair?

2006, the Oilers lose 1 more game and they could go from Stanley Cup Finalists to 1st overall draftee's.

The teams with the most necessity for the best talent should have the favorable odds of acquiring it.

I think the current system works pretty good. The only adjustment you could make is that the team that wins the lotto could move up 5 spots instead of 4, or 6 or 7 spots. thus giving the 30th place team less of a probability of getting the #1 pick. But there is no way a team who finishes 1 point out of the playoffs should ever get the 1st overall pick.
I don't necessarily all 14 teams that miss out on the playoffs should have the same chance to move up to one, but they should all have the chance. You talk about how unfair it would be for Detroit over Edmonton and while I agree it would be unfair to change the rules in the middle of the year, I don't think the current system is fair either.

For example, take the teams that missed the playoffs 5 times during the 00's and compare it to how often they ended in the bottom 5.
  • Minnesota - 0 times
  • Edmonton - 0 times
  • Nashville - 0 times
  • Rangers - 0 times
  • Buffalo - 1 time
  • Carolina - 1 Time
  • Islanders - 4 times
  • Tampa - 5 times

Equal level of failure, but two of those teams also had the ultimate success, and one had great success in failure as well.

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01-18-2010, 02:43 AM
  #121
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I think the Draft should be a lottery every year. No advantages nothing. 30 teams pick from a hat what position they are picking.

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01-18-2010, 02:45 AM
  #122
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Originally Posted by SK13 View Post
Curious mix of self-loathing and whining going on in this thread.

Didn't see these comments when it was Chicago, LA, Pittsburgh and Washington in the basement. No, only when Edmonton sucks should it mean relegation and we must ***** about the fairness to the other teams.

You people are more frustrating than the Oilers have ever been.
Yup . It is sickening to see posters who are so eager to see management punished for their mistakes that they would have the Oilers relegated . Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face .

By the way , pretty sure that the Pens and Caps did it twice . Nary a peep from mr hodge on that at the time .

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Rewarding futility in the context of professional competition is an exercise in nonsense.

It makes for competing objectives when the primary goal is supposed to be to win.

I really don't care what club it applies to the NHL draft setup is illogical.
Wrong . You give the losers an incentive to try to improve themselves . Look around . Life is mostly like that so why should sports be any different .

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01-18-2010, 02:56 AM
  #123
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Two of the oldest, and prior to their few terrible seasons, most well supported teams saw huge benefit from having top picks. Let's have a look at the franchises in the past 10 years that have had top 3 picks- NYI, COL,TB, LA, ATL, CHI, PHI, PHX, STL, PIT, ANA, CAR, WAS, FLO, CBJ, OTT, MIN. A total of 17. Go Back 3 extra years and you can add BOS, SJ, VAN, NSH. That means that those 39 picks were split among over 2/3 of the league. Arguably only two of those teams are out of playoff contention currently and 4 of them are division leaders. The draft does EXACTLY what you want it to do... even the playing field. The NHL would never survive if it let teams like COL, CHI, PHI, PIT, BOS, SJ, MIN, and VAN wallow at the bottom of the standings.
In a capped league why the further need to "level the playing field". I could see this maybe precap but postcap I think theres nothing wrong with the cream rising to the top.


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That's assinine. High picks allow teams to gather traction. How is a team going to improve if they are the worst in the league and have the worst talent pool in the NHL? The only thing that is going to happen is that the good get better and the bad get worse. A team that finishes at the bottom isn't exactly a huge attraction for FAs.
Well is the present system really working? Hardly any great free agents want to play in Canada. We can't even get Canadians to want to play in Canada. To demonstrate this point only 2 players that will play on Team Canada in the Olympics play in Canadian cities in the NHL.
Regardless of how you setup the draft it seems star players want to gravitate to the US. I'm not sure why but plenty of examples of it.


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And even though it's blatantly obvious when a team is tanking in the NFL (or not playing their best players three weeks before the playoffs) the fans still come out paying for tickets and NFL Sunday Ticket in higher numbers than any other professional sport. And the NFL doesn't even have a lottery. The worst team simply gets the best pick.
Well judging from the Oilers recent exchange with seasons ticket holders it doesn't seem like many paying fans are impressed with the club tanking an entire half season. (not saying they don't see the benefit of draft result as per present rules but they don't like the product being offered)



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Yeah and only 4 teams ever compete for the championship. That sounds exciting. A high draft pick or two can save a franchise and the NHL has several franchises already teetering on the edge. They certainly don't need Pittsburgh, Chicago, and Colorado packing up and moving to Kansas City, Las Vegas, and Oklahoma.
Well how exciting is it when any number of clubs in a year seem to be competing to see how few pts they can obtain?

When do you think the derby begins in earnest this year for the collection of clubs that think they are in the running for last place?

Its a sick joke to the paying fans of those clubs that they pay handsomely to watch clubs with nothing to lose and everything to gain by losing...

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01-18-2010, 03:03 AM
  #124
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Its fair because every team would try to win every game, there would be no incentive to lose. There is a salary cap so every team can or should be able to afford to ice a competitive team. If you have poor scouting, player development, coaching and management how is that anyone else's problem other than your own?
I'm not sure that the effort of the teams would be effected by that change. On a game to game basis, i'd say that the Oilers are still trying to win, they aren't throwing games on purpose. They Just aren't good enough to win them on purpose. What would they do different if their chance at the first overall pick was equal to their chance of a 30th? Would they have gone and gotten a goalie? Probably not unless they could have unloaded a contract they didn't want, and that's more about unloading that contract then about acquiring a goalie. They still know they are not going to make the playoffs so why give up future just so they can be a little bit closer? The Oilers tank job is not on the ice, its in management. With a 30 team full out lottery nothing else would be different, this team would not be better.

With today's draft system it is in place to keep parity in the league, to keep it exciting. Bad teams like the Oilers have a better chance of improving and can do it quicker. Without it teams like Chicago would still be bad, LA would Still be Bad, Phoenix, Islanders would all still be bad. How is that good for the NHL. Non hockey markets have a hard enough time attracting fans when they are winning let alone when they are going through a lengthy rebuild.

Look at university and college sports. Each team there has an "equal" chance at acquiring each player. And every year the same teams are at the top of the league. Sure a weak program can build up and become good, but it takes a long time. In a business like the NHL is i'm not sure that is the best equation for success.

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01-18-2010, 03:05 AM
  #125
SK13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
In a capped league why the further need to "level the playing field". I could see this maybe precap but postcap I think theres nothing wrong with the cream rising to the top.
The cream is almost always the cream because they played the system you hate.

Quote:
Well is the present system really working? Hardly any great free agents want to play in Canada. We can't even get Canadians to want to play in Canada. To demonstrate this point only 2 players that will play on Team Canada in the Olympics play in Canadian cities in the NHL.
Regardless of how you setup the draft it seems star players want to gravitate to the US. I'm not sure why but plenty of examples of it.
Many of the players who are in the Olympics are on their first and second contracts with the TEAMS WHO DRAFTED THEM. High.

Quote:
Well judging from the Oilers recent exchange with seasons ticket holders it doesn't seem like many paying fans are impressed with the club tanking an entire half season. (not saying they don't see the benefit of draft result as per present rules but they don't like the product being offered)
Best way to fix that right now is to draft high and clean up a bit of the mess in the offseason.

Of course we're not happy with the product. I'm cool with the tank and I'm only watching the games that fit my schedule.


Quote:
Well how exciting is it when any number of clubs in a year seem to be competing to see how few pts they can obtain?

When do you think the derby begins in earnest this year for the collection of clubs that think they are in the running for last place?

Its a sick joke to the paying fans of those clubs that they pay handsomely to watch clubs with nothing to lose and everything to gain by losing...
The derby began in "earnest" weeks ago with Carolina, Edmonton and Toronto.

It happens every year, but more people are fixated (until after the playoffs end) on the teams battling it out for the playoff spots.

Funny thing is, we have amazing parity right now in the league. We've seen struggling cities rebound and we're probably going to see more with LA and Atlanta on the rise.

nvan97 made a fantastic point from a perspective I never thought to look at it from: The draft lottery is the best way to ensure struggling, small market teams succeed.

The Oilers are merely the first Canadian team in some time to fall this hard (save for last years Toronto team, which rebounded in a big way).

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