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Old
01-18-2010, 12:02 PM
  #101
Hemsky #83
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What he did is a hockey play. It is defined by Elbowing in the rule book. Yes it was a horrendous and disgusting Elbow but it is still a hockey play
Wow... and assault is defined in the Criminal Code. Guess assault must be a civic activity then?

The fact that elbowing is listed as a penalty means that it is not a hockey play. It is frowned upon, hence the term penalty - outside of the rules of the game.

Plain and simple, this is criminal assualt. A hockey rink is not a place for anarchy, where your obligations as a citizen end. You have a moral obligation to not infringe on the welfare, health and safety of fellow citizens. Athletic activity does not negate anyone's obligation to be a citizen and subjected to the laws of the land.

Any argument that crime cannot occur in sport is a fallacy. Result and intent are core components of criminal justice. Cormier intented to hurt and was sucessful in doing so.

Conversely, sport does carry some risk, and accidents and injuries can happen. This was no accident.

And any question of where the line is I'll leave to the prosecutor's office and the criminal justice system, not a hockey league.

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01-18-2010, 12:04 PM
  #102
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That was beyond just a dirty play. That had to bet the cheapest and most disgusting play of all time! Even worse than the bertuzzi incident!

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01-18-2010, 12:06 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Joe Hallenback View Post
What he did is a hockey play. It is defined by Elbowing in the rule book. Yes it was a horrendous and disgusting Elbow but it is still a hockey play
If it was a hockey play it wouldn't be a penalty in the first place.

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01-18-2010, 12:11 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Hemsky #83 View Post
Wow... and assault is defined in the Criminal Code. Guess assault must be a civic activity then?

The fact that elbowing is listed as a penalty means that it is not a hockey play. It is frowned upon, hence the term penalty - outside of the rules of the game.

Plain and simple, this is criminal assualt. A hockey rink is not a place for anarchy, where your obligations as a citizen end. You have a moral obligation to not infringe on the welfare, health and safety of fellow citizens. Athletic activity does not negate anyone's obligation to be a citizen and subjected to the laws of the land.

Any argument that crime cannot occur in sport is a fallacy. Result and intent are core components of criminal justice. Cormier intented to hurt and was sucessful in doing so.

Conversely, sport does carry some risk, and accidents and injuries can happen. This was no accident.

And any question of where the line is I'll leave to the prosecutor's office and the criminal justice system, not a hockey league.
It is a hockey play because it is defined as an elbow. Sport does carry risk like you said and the risk you take when you step on the ice is that you may become injured during the course of a game whether lawfully or unlawfully.

It is not a criminal assault. This was a hockey play were one player elbowed another during the play. This was not outside of normal play. Tam was not off by himself and Cormier did not go outside the normal boundries of play to Elbow him. It happened during the boundries of play. Yes it was illegal but not criminal. He could have easily have used a shoulder but instead he reacted and used an elbow.

There is a big difference. If this goes to court they will argue that he reacted to the play by using his elbow. Which happens alot during the course of a game. Just like a player sticking out a knee during a check or using their stick to trip or slash.

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Old
01-18-2010, 12:19 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Joe Hallenback View Post
What he did is a hockey play. It is defined by Elbowing in the rule book. Yes it was a horrendous and disgusting Elbow but it is still a hockey play
So if I baseball swing my stick and hit a guy in the face as hard as I can, I'm good to go. It's defined as high-sticking in the rule book. It's a hockey play as well. It's just really horrendous.

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Old
01-18-2010, 12:22 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Joe Hallenback View Post
It is a hockey play because it is defined as an elbow. Sport does carry risk like you said and the risk you take when you step on the ice is that you may become injured during the course of a game whether lawfully or unlawfully.

It is not a criminal assault. This was a hockey play were one player elbowed another during the play. This was not outside of normal play. Tam was not off by himself and Cormier did not go outside the normal boundries of play to Elbow him. It happened during the boundries of play. Yes it was illegal but not criminal. He could have easily have used a shoulder but instead he reacted and used an elbow.

There is a big difference. If this goes to court they will argue that he reacted to the play by using his elbow. Which happens alot during the course of a game. Just like a player sticking out a knee during a check or using their stick to trip or slash.
This incident was malicious enough to warrant criminal action. Simply put Cormier went out of his way to violently injure someone, if throwing out your elbow in an attempt to decapitate someone isn't an assault, then i dont know what is.

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Old
01-18-2010, 12:27 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Ghostbuster View Post
So if I baseball swing my stick and hit a guy in the face as hard as I can, I'm good to go. It's defined as high-sticking in the rule book. It's a hockey play as well. It's just really horrendous.
Stick Swinging does happen

The last one that I can remember that went to court was McSorely's one on Brashear. He got a 18 month suspended sentence. Chris Simon was suspended for 15 games for one.

Edmonton's own Mark Messier was master of the crosscheck

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Old
01-18-2010, 12:27 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Joe Hallenback View Post
It is a hockey play because it is defined as an elbow. Sport does carry risk like you said and the risk you take when you step on the ice is that you may become injured during the course of a game whether lawfully or unlawfully.

It is not a criminal assault. This was a hockey play were one player elbowed another during the play. This was not outside of normal play. Tam was not off by himself and Cormier did not go outside the normal boundries of play to Elbow him. It happened during the boundries of play. Yes it was illegal but not criminal. He could have easily have used a shoulder but instead he reacted and used an elbow.

There is a big difference. If this goes to court they will argue that he reacted to the play by using his elbow. Which happens alot during the course of a game. Just like a player sticking out a knee during a check or using their stick to trip or slash.
I tend to agree with you Joe. Those who are describing this as one of "the dirtiest plays of all time", are pretty clueless. In fact, it's far less serious than this:



Churla didn't even have the puck - at any time.

It's a tough lesson for Tam to learn. How many times does it need to be said: Keep your head up!

The fact that he comes waltzing across the neutral zone staring at his skate laces proves the kid shouldn't be playing at that level.

As far as Cormier is concerned, he should be disciplined. However, there is nothing about the hit that makes this more serious than any other borderline hit where a player is seriously injured.

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Old
01-18-2010, 12:32 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by DVF is for losers View Post
This incident was malicious enough to warrant criminal action. Simply put Cormier went out of his way to violently injure someone, if throwing out your elbow in an attempt to decapitate someone isn't an assault, then i dont know what is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEUa0...eature=related

Messier should have done hard time then

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Old
01-18-2010, 12:33 PM
  #110
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I effin hate Cormier.. He's a ********* coward idiot.. wtf is wrong with this guy? Does he not have a brain or something? Really hope Tam will be ok.. that was sick.

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01-18-2010, 12:38 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Red Deer Rebel View Post
The fact that he comes waltzing across the neutral zone staring at his skate laces proves the kid shouldn't be playing at that level.

As far as Cormier is concerned, he should be disciplined. However, there is nothing about the hit that makes this more serious than any other borderline hit where a player is seriously injured.
So your telling me that every player should be scared for their lives when going through the neutral zone? I am sorry to let you know that the majority of hockey players would never do something as dirty as Cormier did. Also how do you consider this an borderline hit? As far as im concerned and alot of the people as well, that elbow is just plain disgusting. Don't make it sound like its Mikael Tam's fault for almost dying.

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Old
01-18-2010, 12:38 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Joe Hallenback View Post
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEUa0...eature=related

Messier should have done hard time then
Did Messier do that three times in a month?

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01-18-2010, 12:40 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Joe Hallenback View Post
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEUa0...eature=related

Messier should have done hard time then
It wasn't as bad, but still i dont care he should have faced disciplinary action, im not going to disagree and say Messier wasn't a dirty player.

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Old
01-18-2010, 12:42 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Joe Hallenback View Post
It is a hockey play because it is defined as an elbow. Sport does carry risk like you said and the risk you take when you step on the ice is that you may become injured during the course of a game whether lawfully or unlawfully.

It is not a criminal assault. This was a hockey play were one player elbowed another during the play. This was not outside of normal play. Tam was not off by himself and Cormier did not go outside the normal boundries of play to Elbow him. It happened during the boundries of play. Yes it was illegal but not criminal. He could have easily have used a shoulder but instead he reacted and used an elbow.

There is a big difference. If this goes to court they will argue that he reacted to the play by using his elbow. Which happens alot during the course of a game. Just like a player sticking out a knee during a check or using their stick to trip or slash.
There is nothing about this play that is in the realm of "hockey." As soon as Cormier stepped onto the ice, he was looking at Tam. He put on a burst of speed and aimed specifically at Tam. He did not even attempt at a legal body check, instead opting to throw his elbow into Tam's face.

Sport carries a risk. This "risk" does NOT include intentional injury. "Risk" is accidentally having your jugular slit by someone's skate. "Risk" would NOT include someone purposely slitting your throat with their skate. Same applies to this situation. "Risk" is an accidental elbow in the face. "Risk" does NOT include a player hunting you down and bashing your face in purposely with their elbow.

Most of the time, the injury caused by an intentional elbow or hit is a concussion, a bit of missed time, and full recovery. I doubt that a full recovery is available for Tam.

According to the criminal code:
Aggravated assault: 268. (1) Every one commits an aggravated assault who wounds, maims, disfigures or endangers the life of the complainant.
This situation qualifies as aggravated assault. There is NO provision excluding hockey, or any other sport for that matter, from this section of the criminal code.

Claiming that "this was not outside normal play" is just plain stupid. Tam's heart stopped beating for 30 seconds after they had him off the ice. Any play which results in this sort of injury to a player is not "normal play." One which was planned and purposely executed is criminal.

You claim that he missed his check and stuck his elbow out in response. Look at the video again. He puts his elbow up before launching at Tam. There was NO intent to legally check Tam. He headhunted him the whole way across the ice, thew his elbow up, and launched himself at Tam's head.

Normally I would not agree with the courts stepping into the game. However, there are particular circumstances where punishment should go farther than the limit that the league can place upon a player. This is one of those circumstances. If the NHL (and by extension, lower hockey leagues) really wants to get rid of this action, they will encourage the court to punish Cormier as they see fit.

If Cormier ever plays in the NHL, there is something seriously wrong with the message sent to players. Any suspension should be enforced in the QMJHL, the AHL, the NHL, and any other league that Cormier attempts to play in. There is no room in the "normal play" of hockey for attempted murderers.

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Old
01-18-2010, 12:45 PM
  #115
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There is nothing about this play that is in the realm of "hockey." As soon as Cormier stepped onto the ice, he was looking at Tam. He put on a burst of speed and aimed specifically at Tam. He did not even attempt at a legal body check, instead opting to throw his elbow into Tam's face.

Sport carries a risk. This "risk" does NOT include intentional injury. "Risk" is accidentally having your jugular slit by someone's skate. "Risk" would NOT include someone purposely slitting your throat with their skate. Same applies to this situation. "Risk" is an accidental elbow in the face. "Risk" does NOT include a player hunting you down and bashing your face in purposely with their elbow.

Most of the time, the injury caused by an intentional elbow or hit is a concussion, a bit of missed time, and full recovery. I doubt that a full recovery is available for Tam.

According to the criminal code:
Aggravated assault: 268. (1) Every one commits an aggravated assault who wounds, maims, disfigures or endangers the life of the complainant.
This situation qualifies as aggravated assault. There is NO provision excluding hockey, or any other sport for that matter, from this section of the criminal code.

Claiming that "this was not outside normal play" is just plain stupid. Tam's heart stopped beating for 30 seconds after they had him off the ice. Any play which results in this sort of injury to a player is not "normal play." One which was planned and purposely executed is criminal.

You claim that he missed his check and stuck his elbow out in response. Look at the video again. He puts his elbow up before launching at Tam. There was NO intent to legally check Tam. He headhunted him the whole way across the ice, thew his elbow up, and launched himself at Tam's head.

Normally I would not agree with the courts stepping into the game. However, there are particular circumstances where punishment should go farther than the limit that the league can place upon a player. This is one of those circumstances. If the NHL (and by extension, lower hockey leagues) really wants to get rid of this action, they will encourage the court to punish Cormier as they see fit.

If Cormier ever plays in the NHL, there is something seriously wrong with the message sent to players. Any suspension should be enforced in the QMJHL, the AHL, the NHL, and any other league that Cormier attempts to play in. There is no room in the "normal play" of hockey for attempted murderers.
It is not the same thing its not a criminal act. Were not talking about walking down the street and someone cracks you in the skull. Were talking about a game were Violence is the Norm.

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Old
01-18-2010, 12:45 PM
  #116
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So if I baseball swing my stick and hit a guy in the face as hard as I can, I'm good to go. It's defined as high-sticking in the rule book. It's a hockey play as well. It's just really horrendous.


My words exactly!

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01-18-2010, 12:50 PM
  #117
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It is not the same thing its not a criminal act. Were not talking about walking down the street and someone cracks you in the skull. Were talking about a game were Violence is the Norm.
I love hockey fights, big open ice hits etc..... In most cases I find people on here very wimpish when it comes to this kind of thing. However.......

This was not an open ice hit, this was a malicious intent to injure somebody. NOT A HOCKEY PLAY WHATSOEVER! This guy does not deserve to play the SPORT of hockey.

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01-18-2010, 12:51 PM
  #118
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Did Messier do that three times in a month?
Yes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbuYF...eature=related

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01-18-2010, 12:52 PM
  #119
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I love hockey fights, big open ice hits etc..... In most cases I find people on here very wimpish when it comes to this kind of thing. However.......

This was not an open ice hit, this was a malicious intent to injure somebody. NOT A HOCKEY PLAY WHATSOEVER! This guy does not deserve to play the SPORT of hockey.
I don't think I said do not suspend him. Suspend him for life from the league if thats the punishment so be it. What I am saying is it shouldn't go to criminal court

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Old
01-18-2010, 12:55 PM
  #120
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xp0lN...layer_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hzeOhL8_9g

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgwCaxEB6-Y

He has a history of this sort of behavior.
He had NO intention of making a legal hockey play.
He planned his attack before even stepping on the ice.
He violently launched his elbow into the face of the other player.
As a result of his actions, the heart of the player he struck stopped beating.

Hockey may be a violent game with risk. This was NOT hockey, and should therefore be subject to the criminal code.

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01-18-2010, 12:57 PM
  #121
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Touche. So let me get this straight, are you defending this play in question? Just another hockey play? No big deal?

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01-18-2010, 12:58 PM
  #122
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Touche. So let me get this straight, are you defending this play in question? Just another hockey play? No big deal?
No

He should be suspended by whatever the league decides. What I am saying is suggesting he should be tried in court is ludicrous

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01-18-2010, 12:59 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by tornado88 View Post
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xp0lN...layer_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hzeOhL8_9g

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgwCaxEB6-Y

He has a history of this sort of behavior.
He had NO intention of making a legal hockey play.
He planned his attack before even stepping on the ice.
He violently launched his elbow into the face of the other player.
As a result of his actions, the heart of the player he struck stopped beating.

Hockey may be a violent game with risk. This was NOT hockey, and should therefore be subject to the criminal code.
Great posts! Very well done and thank you.

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01-18-2010, 12:59 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by DVF is for losers View Post
So your telling me that every player should be scared for their lives when going through the neutral zone? I am sorry to let you know that the majority of hockey players would never do something as dirty as Cormier did. Also how do you consider this an borderline hit? As far as im concerned and alot of the people as well, that elbow is just plain disgusting. Don't make it sound like its Mikael Tam's fault for almost dying.
Did Mikael Tam see the hit coming?

Nope. Whose fault is that?

If Cormier hit him with his shoulder, the effect would have been similar. Brandon Sutter was hit in a similar fashion by Doug Weight just last year.

If Tam is paying attention to the game, he wouldn't have been hit at all.

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01-18-2010, 01:00 PM
  #125
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No

He should be suspended by whatever the league decides. What I am saying is suggesting he should be tried in court is ludicrous
I dont think there is a place for this guy to play anywhere, including beer league. I hope he is done tbh. Probably wont happen, but it should.

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