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How about this for our netminding problems???

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Old
04-21-2004, 03:48 PM
  #26
copperandblue
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Originally Posted by dawgbone
Two years ago the Devils were upset in the first round by the Hurricanes, last year they won the Cup.

I doubt they do anything drastic.
The NJ team last year was the weakest team to win a Stanley Cup since the Devils won it in '95. I am not sure their recent success is a good indication on where they actually are in a typical development cycle. The last cup Edmonton won was with a team that probably shouldn't have and two years later they started a run of 4 straight years without any playoffs.

I am not saying they should, but for all the savvy that is credited to Lou, I could see him being somewhat procative in kick starting a rebuild so that it takes less time (something Sather clearly missed the boat on) and perhaps gives him a chance to use some of his assets while they are still considered winners.

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04-21-2004, 03:48 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by copperandblue
Part of me wonders if Lou is considering any major changes. If you think about it, NJ barely put up a squirm this year, they have been off and on contenders for 10 years now which may suggest their time is up and their back bone and captain may never play again (age), so is there a better time for Lou to shop Brodeur?

If NJ is on the start of their downward slide then I wouldn't be shocked. He trims a tonne of payroll for the new CBA and he could get a whole whack of young talent to jump start a rebuild for a guy like Brodeur, who can still be considered as in his prime.

Maybe he keeps Ahonen and looks to shock the hockey world by moving Marty.
Uh Jersey fans will dump Lou before Brodeur. The phrase untouchable doesn't even come close when discussing him. It would take an overpayment that is beyond belief to move him. Start thinking along the lines of 1st overall, Kolzig, Witt and Semin for Brodeur.

Or Luongo Jay-Bo
or Ruuto Bell and 3rd overall

I can't Brodeur being moved and I can't see someone paying the asking price

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04-21-2004, 03:50 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by s7ark
How about Smith and Horcoff for Gomez and Ahonen?



I suggested Rita as I thought you might want more offense.
Sorry, can't spare any centers, Madden is UFA. Plus, Gomez, Elias and Niedermayer were our best players. Gomez is also due to get a increase in salary, but even if he gets $1.5 million, he's still a bargin!

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04-21-2004, 04:00 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by DARKSIDE
Sorry, can't spare any centers, Madden is UFA. Plus, Gomez, Elias and Niedermayer were our best players. Gomez is also due to get a increase in salary, but even if he gets $1.5 million, he's still a bargin!
Understood I know Gomez isn't moving as much as my friend would like him to so she can marry him

How about Smith + 2nd round pick or even philly's first (22-25?)for Parise and Ahonen then? I think we can work something around Smith for Ahonen, I just think that straigth up it is a bit lopsided your favor and the Oilers are looking for high end talent

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04-21-2004, 04:10 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by s7ark
Understood I know Gomez isn't moving as much as my friend would like him to so she can marry him

How about Smith + 2nd round pick or even philly's first (22-25?)for Parise and Ahonen then? I think we can work something around Smith for Ahonen, I just think that straigth up it is a bit lopsided your favor and the Oilers are looking for high end talent

You know what this is pretty skewed in our favour. we need to add something else What other needs do NJ have? Also just to get it out of the way Smith is an RFA next year NOT UFA as has been floating around the boards

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04-21-2004, 08:54 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by s7ark
Understood I know Gomez isn't moving as much as my friend would like him to so she can marry him

How about Smith + 2nd round pick or even philly's first (22-25?)for Parise and Ahonen then? I think we can work something around Smith for Ahonen, I just think that straigth up it is a bit lopsided your favor and the Oilers are looking for high end talent
Please no more mention of Parise, you're just wasting your time and mine. Now here's what I have in mind, Ahonen for Smith straight up. Smith is RFA this year and I believe UFA next. Oilers get their goalie of the future, we get a physical defensemen and an original Devil. Everyone is happy!

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04-21-2004, 09:00 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DARKSIDE
Please no more mention of Parise, you're just wasting your time and mine. Now here's what I have in mind, Ahonen for Smith straight up. Smith is RFA this year and I believe UFA next. Oilers get their goalie of the future, we get a physical defensemen and an original Devil. Everyone is happy!
I believe that deal has potential but I don't think I'd be willing to move Smith for Ahonen alone. A lot of Oilers fans believe differently but I'm just not completely sold on Ahonen being any better than Conklin or Markkanen. I'd be down for something along those lines if Smith's contract talks don't go well though.

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04-21-2004, 09:11 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Cerebral
I believe that deal has potential but I don't think I'd be willing to move Smith for Ahonen alone. A lot of Oilers fans believe differently but I'm just not completely sold on Ahonen being any better than Conklin or Markkanen. I'd be down for something along those lines if Smith's contract talks don't go well though.
Call me crazy & ignorant since I dont know just what type of a powerhouse team Albany has been in the AHL the last 3 years, but these stats for Ari do not impress me alot: GP 124 W 32 L 72 T 15 GAA 3.01 SV% 904.

I know he's only 23, but Im not sure I see thesame cant-miss goalie prospect here (See Noronen)

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04-21-2004, 09:14 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cerebral
I believe that deal has potential but I don't think I'd be willing to move Smith for Ahonen alone. A lot of Oilers fans believe differently but I'm just not completely sold on Ahonen being any better than Conklin or Markkanen. I'd be down for something along those lines if Smith's contract talks don't go well though.
i'm with you cerebral i am not sold on Ahonen either and feel conks would just be the better option right now

Smith to buffalo for one of the 3 goalies would be better all 3 have NHL experience

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04-21-2004, 09:30 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by HemskyFreak83
i'm with you cerebral i am not sold on Ahonen either and feel conks would just be the better option right now

Smith to buffalo for one of the 3 goalies would be better all 3 have NHL experience
Agreed, at least the guys in Buffalo have some NHL experience. Can you imagine how terrible it would be if Ahonen came over and just absolutely sucked? We'd be down our captain and most consistent d-man (slightly above Staios) and still not have a starting goaltender to show for it. I still think we should start off the season with Conks and Markkanen as 1a/1b and see how that does..

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04-21-2004, 09:42 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cerebral
Agreed, at least the guys in Buffalo have some NHL experience. Can you imagine how terrible it would be if Ahonen came over and just absolutely sucked? We'd be down our captain and most consistent d-man (slightly above Staios) and still not have a starting goaltender to show for it. I still think we should start off the season with Conks and Markkanen as 1a/1b and see how that does..
i couldn't agree more

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Old
04-21-2004, 09:50 PM
  #37
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I suggest the Oilers refrain from selling the farm on another unproven rookie goaltender, or even a marginal young goaltender. None of the names included are sure fire starting goaltenders for next season. Conklin, as unproven as he is, is just as reliable as any of the options. With JDD a couple years down the line, there is no sense throwing away assets for more rookie goaltenders that may not turn out to be legit - now or later. If they are to make a move it better be to acquire legitimate starting goaltending, if not wait a while and see what happens. Markkanen and Conklin are reasonable for now.

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04-21-2004, 10:13 PM
  #38
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Yeah sorry Darkside, I don't think you are going to get too much support for Smith for Ahonen. That is a brutal deal for Edmonton. Going price for a good prospect goalie is a 2nd rounder. I think Smith is worth more then that.

I think you guys will ahve to give up something else to even come close.

We should talk to Buffalo, Anaheim and Washington too. There are lots of goalies out there right now. That also should drop Ahonen's value quite a bit. I don't think Smith will be going for Ahonen straight up any time soon.

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04-22-2004, 01:33 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by s7ark
Garon could be pryed from Montreal but it wouldn't be cheap. Given the INSANE amount of goaltending talent that is avail in the NHL these days, I would looke to trade with one of the stacked teams or a team that NEEDS to move a goalie rather then break the bank on a Garon or Gerber (both of whom I really like , I just don't like the asking price)
Just a question. But why would getting a guy like a Garon necessarily break the bank? It's not as if he's proven to be a #1 goalie. Sure, Montreal would not be keen on trading a solid backup goaltender.. but he is still a backup behind Theodore after all. Backups, I don't think, break the bank. Montreal might not be willing to give him up for peanuts... but I don't think "too expensive" should be a reason we don't acquire a guy like that.

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04-22-2004, 01:39 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by momentai
Just a question. But why would getting a guy like a Garon necessarily break the bank? It's not as if he's proven to be a #1 goalie. Sure, Montreal would not be keen on trading a solid backup goaltender.. but he is still a backup behind Theodore after all. Backups, I don't think, break the bank. Montreal might not be willing to give him up for peanuts... but I don't think "too expensive" should be a reason we don't acquire a guy like that.
Think about it though...

If Theodore is still commanding $6mil per season after this year, and the Habs think Garon could start for them in a season or two and be just as effective, why trade the guy?

I mean if you can save $4mil and still get similar goaltending, and possibly acquire some pretty nice resources in a deal that involves Theo, why not do that?

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04-22-2004, 02:14 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by dawgbone
Think about it though...

If Theodore is still commanding $6mil per season after this year, and the Habs think Garon could start for them in a season or two and be just as effective, why trade the guy?

I mean if you can save $4mil and still get similar goaltending, and possibly acquire some pretty nice resources in a deal that involves Theo, why not do that?
For me, I see it being very tough to trade a goalie like Theodore out of Montreal.. Especially more so if the Canadiens make it past the Lightening next round. He's a franchise player and the fans identify with him. It isn't going to be as easy to convince the fans that "we're just saving 4 million dollars". It will be seen as downgrading the goaltending for penny pinching IMO.

Unless Theo struggles and people in Montreal call for his head.. IMO, he's not going to be moved.

I agree that it makes sense from a business perspective. But that only is if you're assuming that
a) Garon will be as good a goaltender as Theodore
b) the fans will accept the move

There's a huge amount of risk in your hypothetical situation. The risk is not as looming if they are the ones dealing a potential #1 goalie in Garon. After all, they don't know if he will be able to take the next step and if they can acquire some assets to shore up some areas on the team currently, why not do that?

If Garon makes it big here... it's not as if Montreal can aptly say that he was going to get that kind of shot there. Nor can they say they lost out on a number 1 goalie which is a detriment to their team; they do have Theodore after all. The risk of losing a player like that is minimal for them at least... so I can't see why they would be so desperate to cling to simply a backup when a young goaltender already has the reins on that team.

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04-22-2004, 02:45 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by momentai
For me, I see it being very tough to trade a goalie like Theodore out of Montreal.. Especially more so if the Canadiens make it past the Lightening next round. He's a franchise player and the fans identify with him. It isn't going to be as easy to convince the fans that "we're just saving 4 million dollars". It will be seen as downgrading the goaltending for penny pinching IMO.
Very true... I don't doubt that. But say Eddie Belfour Retires this season. Toronto offers Stajan, Colaicovo and Telqvist for Theodore (totally hypothetical), is that not the type of deal that would peak Gainey's interest? Or Los Angeles gets fed up with Checkmanek and names like Frolov get thrown out there as a return. Ottawa decides that Theodore would warrant a return for Havlat or Spezza or something like that. Of course these are all theoretical, but there are enough "contenders" that could find themselves looking for a top goaltender very shortly.

Quote:
Unless Theo struggles and people in Montreal call for his head.. IMO, he's not going to be moved.

I agree that it makes sense from a business perspective. But that only is if you're assuming that
a) Garon will be as good a goaltender as Theodore
b) the fans will accept the move

There's a huge amount of risk in your hypothetical situation. The risk is not as looming if they are the ones dealing a potential #1 goalie in Garon. After all, they don't know if he will be able to take the next step and if they can acquire some assets to shore up some areas on the team currently, why not do that?
And of course this is 100% accurate, and I am not trying to deny that. Like I said, it's all hypothetical, and impossible to know for sure, at least from our perspective. It all depends on the Canadians opinion on Garon, and what they could possibly get for Theodore. If it makes more sense to trade Garon and keep Theo, obviously that's the move they make. If they can garner a huge return for Theo and they feel Garon can provide goaltending close to that of Theodore.

Like I said, it depends on their options. It's a decison that they have to make. It also depends on their asking price as well, which is part of what I was saying. I didn't mean that they would trade Theo, but it is an option, and can effect what they may want in a deal for Garon. If they feel they can trade theo and go with Garon and be a better team, then that might drive up their price for Garon. Take my examples from above. If the Kings are offering Frolov and a 1st round pick for Theodore, that is a pretty big return. What does the price for Garon go to then to make the deal as a whole comparable?

Quote:
If Garon makes it big here... it's not as if Montreal can aptly say that he was going to get that kind of shot there. Nor can they say they lost out on a number 1 goalie which is a detriment to their team; they do have Theodore after all. The risk of losing a player like that is minimal for them at least... so I can't see why they would be so desperate to cling to simply a backup when a young goaltender already has the reins on that team.
The problem is if Garon makes it big here and the Habs get say just a 1st round pick, but an offer for Theo for Frolov and a 1st was available, then what?

Anyways, I was just trying to point out why Garon might not be available for a song and a dance, not trying to dictate what Montreal will do.

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04-22-2004, 02:53 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by dawgbone
Anyways, I was just trying to point out why Garon might not be available for a song and a dance, not trying to dictate what Montreal will do.
I understand. But I don't necessarily think it's going to cause such a massive overpay akin to trying to deal for a Denis-type goaltender either. There's got to be a middle ground here.

And while those trade suggestions might be somewhat plausible... when was the last time a deal of that magnitude ever went down? ie/ a purely hockey, talent-wise deal with no implications of salary structure

Not to say it can't happen, but I would be very surprised if one such as that occurred. Also, why Theodore? There's a Luongo to be had in Florida... Nabokov to be had in San Jose as well. Turco? Denis? I know. I know. I'm nitpicking.

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04-22-2004, 03:18 PM
  #44
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Denis > Emery > Ahonen

GEt Denis, then try for Emery and if they wont budge get Ahonen

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04-22-2004, 03:22 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by outKast
Denis > Emery > Ahonen

GEt Denis, then try for Emery and if they wont budge get Ahonen
WOW. I think the world is coming to and end. I actually agree with this post of outKast... Denis would be great, but what would the jackets want for him?

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04-22-2004, 04:27 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by s7ark
WOW. I think the world is coming to and end. I actually agree with this post of outKast... Denis would be great, but what would the jackets want for him?
And why would they be dumb enough to trade him?

I mean he is the only one of the three that has proven in any capacity to be a starting goaltender.

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04-22-2004, 04:34 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by momentai
I understand. But I don't necessarily think it's going to cause such a massive overpay akin to trying to deal for a Denis-type goaltender either. There's got to be a middle ground here.
Hey, I agree... it was just a thought. If Montreal gets an offer for Theodore that makes them think they will be a better team when it is all said and done, why not? In the meantime, they have no need to trade Garon unless it is an overpayment, or they are getting exactly what they want in a deal. It is of course depending on what that is. I mean if it's Rita and a 2nd rounder, go for it. If it's Ryan Smyth... I dunno.

Quote:
And while those trade suggestions might be somewhat plausible... when was the last time a deal of that magnitude ever went down? ie/ a purely hockey, talent-wise deal with no implications of salary structure
To be honest, I can't recall anything directly, but when was the last time there was a situation like we saw with Mike Comrie? Hockey can be a funny game like that.

Quote:
Not to say it can't happen, but I would be very surprised if one such as that occurred. Also, why Theodore? There's a Luongo to be had in Florida... Nabokov to be had in San Jose as well. Turco? Denis? I know. I know. I'm nitpicking.
Well, I mean Florida has Steve Shields behind Luongo, Turco has Tugnutt and Denis has Brathwaite... none of those guys really have any kind of aura about them in terms of being a future number 1.

Like I said, with Theodore's contract, and a new NHL CBA (hopefully), maybe he isn't the best option for Montreal anymore. It's completely hypothetical, just like us acquring Garon is. Just food for thought. It doesn't matter what we think Garon's value is, it's what Montreal thinks it is. If they think Garon will be better than Theodore, why not keep them both and make a decision later?

That's basically it.

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04-22-2004, 04:35 PM
  #48
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Not to mention I'm sure Columbus has thoughts of beating the Oilers to a playoff spot. I don't think any Western team between 15th in the conference and 3rd in the conference have any interest in getting the Oilers help in the goal crease.

Noronen isn't a bad idea. Ahonen is a lot better than his statistics though. That Albany team is the worst team in the AHL, and it aint Ahonen that's dragging it down I can tell you that much. He's got NHL #1 Star goaltender potential, certainly more potential than a guy like Noronen.. he's just not tested in the NHL just yet. But he should be ready to start in the NHL next year. He's essentially in the same boat Raycroft was in before this season.

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04-22-2004, 04:46 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Mizral
Noronen isn't a bad idea. Ahonen is a lot better than his statistics though. That Albany team is the worst team in the AHL, and it aint Ahonen that's dragging it down I can tell you that much. He's got NHL #1 Star goaltender potential, certainly more potential than a guy like Noronen.. he's just not tested in the NHL just yet. But he should be ready to start in the NHL next year. He's essentially in the same boat Raycroft was in before this season.
I have serious reservations about Ahonen.

You could put almost any goaltender in the AHL on albany, and the team wouldn't be any better or worse off. Yes, the team is bad, but the goaltending sure doesn't do much to change that around.

I mean, Florida is terrible and Luongo has fantastic numbers. Denis constantly keeps the Jackets in games.

Ahonen doesn't do that. He has been average in the AHL, and I don't see how he can go from average in the AHL to almost ready to start in the NHL.

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04-22-2004, 10:12 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgbone
Hey, I agree... it was just a thought. If Montreal gets an offer for Theodore that makes them think they will be a better team when it is all said and done, why not? In the meantime, they have no need to trade Garon unless it is an overpayment, or they are getting exactly what they want in a deal. It is of course depending on what that is. I mean if it's Rita and a 2nd rounder, go for it. If it's Ryan Smyth... I dunno.
No, they don't have any glaring desire to trade Garon. But how much of an overpayment is at debate here. I highly doubt that the Montreal management are going to demanding Ryan Smyth for a backup goaltender. It could very well be the case but I don't think you drive away potential suitors by demanding a player of Smyth's calibre right off the bat.

One of the reasons I see him as a viable option is that he definitely has the potential to be a #1. He has shown flashes of that ability in his limited exposure in the NHL as well. But the main reason I targeted the two options in Ahonen/Garon is because I don't believe they will "gut" the team to acquire. If the price is too expensive... then by all means, I would bail on the idea. However, I see the situation they are both in... ie/ goaltending in front of them being young and having significant years ahead... and I can't see the clubs demanding an arm and a leg.

But as I said. Without question, you move on if the price is too high. I was originally thinking along the lines of Chimera and a 2nd to perhaps reunite Chimera with Julien...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawgbone
To be honest, I can't recall anything directly, but when was the last time there was a situation like we saw with Mike Comrie? Hockey can be a funny game like that.
Well, indirectly... holdouts are much more common in today's NHL as a result of rifts between player and management. Some that come to mind are Lindros in Philly, Peca in Buffalo, and Yashin in Ottawa. All of those players held out and demanded to be traded. Although these instances do not happy all that frequently, I'd say they are much more common occurrences than a #1 goaltender being dealt because of an overpay... with no inherent problems associated with the player whether due to pricing himself out of the city or rifts between player/management.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawgbone
Well, I mean Florida has Steve Shields behind Luongo, Turco has Tugnutt and Denis has Brathwaite... none of those guys really have any kind of aura about them in terms of being a future number 1.

Like I said, with Theodore's contract, and a new NHL CBA (hopefully), maybe he isn't the best option for Montreal anymore. It's completely hypothetical, just like us acquring Garon is. Just food for thought. It doesn't matter what we think Garon's value is, it's what Montreal thinks it is. If they think Garon will be better than Theodore, why not keep them both and make a decision later?

That's basically it.
I think you missed my point. I simply wondered why it would be that "Toronto", in your hypothetical situation, would target Theodore out of all the possible goaltenders given the overpay. There are other viable options out there that are better... and if Toronto is looking to make a deal such as that... they might as well go for the best.


Last edited by momentai: 04-22-2004 at 10:16 PM.
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