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We need to acquire two more first rounders

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Old
01-18-2010, 07:03 PM
  #1
Giggli G
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We need to acquire two more first rounders

I am not sure whether management is going to attempt a quick rebuild or a medium-length one. One thing I know is that they probably won't do a long one.

I think that it is absolutely imperative that we acquire another first rounder, and preferably two, this year. This is an important step for a quick/medium rebuild.

We really need to hope for is that management foregoes 'project-type' players if at all possible. Last time we had three first rounders we used two on Alex Plante and Riley Nash. While the latter is still a good prospect, he clearly made a bad hockey decision in his choice of school and that has essentially made him into a project.

Assuming we finish last or second-last, the picture-perfect move would be to acquire Toronto's first (if they stay where they are) and draft Fowler with Hall/Seguin. Potential franchise Forward and Defenseman. However, I think this is generally unlikely to happen, and if anything we may be able to acquire picks in the 11-30 range.

If we could, say, get a 15th overall pick or something around there, we might be able to snag a falling Russian like Tarasenko (amazing) or Kitsyn, both mature bodies that weigh about 200 already. These are men's league players much like MPS (Kitsyn having less upside). They would be ready for the NHL within 0-2 years (unless they bust). Then another good prospect with the third pick. These suggestions are of course, merely speculative as I always favor BPA over size (for historical reason).

Edit: just saw ISS' rankings and they have Tarasenko rising to 4th overall. It doesn't seem likely that he will fall past ten, unless people are really worried by Filatov's precedent.
I don't think it should be understated the effect that a good late pick pre-rebuild can have on speeding up a rebuild, and I think/hope that Eberle is that. I am not saying he is going to be star, but simply that he may actually emulate picking ~7-12 spots higher than he was taken. I think MPS has the potential to look several spots better than his place as well, considering Glennie and Cowen, inter alia.

The effect of this is that we have in a partial rebuild since the 2007 draft, and it is important that we consider Gagner as the true beginning of the teambuilding that we will be undertaking more seriously now.

For 2011, we keep all of our picks, so that if we do terrible again next year it will be easy to continue the rebuild. If we pull an Colorado-style reversal (something that is possible with Hemsky and Khabi back) then we roll with it, but we don't trade away any future for veterans.

Anyway, potential trade bait for first rounders would be
Souray
Grebs
Gilbert
Staios
Horcoff (ha)
O'Sullivan (his recent play has put me on the fence a bit)

… and so on. you get the idea. Player availability has largely already been spoken about.

Thoughts?


Last edited by Giggli G: 01-18-2010 at 07:10 PM.
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01-18-2010, 07:05 PM
  #2
CorpseFX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giggli G View Post
Anyway, potential trade bait for first rounders would be
Souray
Grebs
Gilbert
Staios
Horcoff (ha)
O'Sullivan (his recent play has put me on the fence a bit)


is Mike Milbury still a GM?

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Old
01-18-2010, 07:07 PM
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Giggli G
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Originally Posted by CorpseFX View Post


is Mike Milbury still a GM?

The assumption is that there would be some sort of package, I didn't say that a player will necessarily be taken alone. The difficulty is in the cap balancing, and that is what is going to make it hard to acquire the first rounders.

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01-18-2010, 07:13 PM
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Bergeron47
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I think Gilbert or Souray would be the only ones that could get a 1st rounder, and even then, it wouldnt be a high one.

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01-18-2010, 07:13 PM
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where to start where to end

quantity will get you a first rounder

also--if we are talking about a late first rounder--another top 10?

oilers do not have what it takes to get a top ten pick via trade

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01-18-2010, 07:17 PM
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Krut
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I agree that it is crucial to grab at least 1 more first rounder this year, and I hope it can come in a deal for Souray. If nobody falls drastically like you mentioned, then I would try to grab Jack Campbell with the second first rounder. I know that picking a goalie in the 1st round is risky, but this guy looks like a star, and our goaltending depth is atrocious.

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01-18-2010, 07:17 PM
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Wrong, we need 29 more first rounders.

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Old
01-18-2010, 07:19 PM
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Giant Moo
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I'm liking the idea of pursuing Toronto's first from Boston a lot. The question is, what do we have that Boston would want, and would be willing to give up that 1st rounder? I'm not sure we have the chips.

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01-18-2010, 07:23 PM
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Giggli G
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Clearly some of the people responding didn't read what I wrote, since I already said that we probably wouldn't be able to get a pick in the top ten. Seriously.


I agree that our assets are largely not attractive and I think management has their work cut out for them. What I am telling you is that we need to try to do this if we want to have any hope of sustained future success.

I think Souray will be the one who returns a first rounder, then management will have to try and work some magic to get another one. A high second-round pick would also likely be quite helpful as an alternative.

Giantmoo: I agree about pursuing Boston for Toronto's first, but I can't see how it would work with the cap situations of the two teams. They would have to be getting an expensive player and giving some massive salary dump back to us unless we traded Cogliano and/or a ton of prospects and other picks for that Toronto pick.

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01-18-2010, 07:30 PM
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the ting people are over looking is the fact that this is a bad draft year and if we were to send out players for another first rounder

we need to recall the Gagner draft where we had 3 first rounderers--Plante and Nash are two first rounders who some believe are heading towards busts

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01-18-2010, 07:35 PM
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Game 8
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I agree 100% we should try to get more draft picks this year, high ones if possible to speed up the process. I dont think this rebuild will only take one year. I guess it depends on what you want to accomplish? If you want to draft in the 10th spot for the next five years a one year rebuild will do that for you.......

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01-18-2010, 07:39 PM
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Meanashell11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giant Moo View Post
I'm liking the idea of pursuing Toronto's first from Boston a lot. The question is, what do we have that Boston would want, and would be willing to give up that 1st rounder? I'm not sure we have the chips.
Thats not true. Boston is going to be a player in the trade deadline sweepstakes. Could you imagine a D with what they have and what they could be with Vis or Souray? They also have TO's first next season so they have the opportunity in a very shallow draft to trade to make a big noise in the playoffs now. I think one of either vis or souray + could get it done. Their problem is the cap.We would need to take back cap for this season. Derrick Morris anyone? Thats 3.3mm, Boston can afford Souray and he's an upgrade over Morris. So what do we have to add to Souray to get the first and Morris?

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01-18-2010, 07:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meanashell11 View Post
Thats not true. Boston is going to be a player in the trade deadline sweepstakes. Could you imagine a D with what they have and what they could be with Vis or Souray? They also have TO's first next season so they have the opportunity in a very shallow draft to trade to make a big noise in the playoffs now. I think one of either vis or souray + could get it done. Their problem is the cap.We would need to take back cap for this season. Derrick Morris anyone? Thats 3.3mm, Boston can afford Souray and he's an upgrade over Morris. So what do we have to add to Souray to get the first and Morris?
Thats kinda what I was thinking. How about something like:

Souray + Cogliano?
for
Ryder + Wideman + Tor 1st?

I believe they dump 2 bad contracts(rumor has it Wideman is being offered to the league and Ryder really hasn't played well this season, also, we could form our own Ryder + JDD + 2nd proposals, and that'd be fun times). We also get a top-5 pick.

They get an upgrade over Wideman and a cheap forward to get another player with talent, thus making it worth their while.

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01-18-2010, 07:47 PM
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Giant Moo
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Originally Posted by Meanashell11 View Post
Thats not true. Boston is going to be a player in the trade deadline sweepstakes. Could you imagine a D with what they have and what they could be with Vis or Souray? They also have TO's first next season so they have the opportunity in a very shallow draft to trade to make a big noise in the playoffs now. I think one of either vis or souray + could get it done. Their problem is the cap.We would need to take back cap for this season. Derrick Morris anyone? Thats 3.3mm, Boston can afford Souray and he's an upgrade over Morris. So what do we have to add to Souray to get the first and Morris?
I think Visnovsky's worth more than Souray, so that's where I'd start the negociation -- Visnovsky for Toronto's 1st + Morris.

Now, they laugh at that. But they don't hang up the phone and maybe they counter with Visnovsky, two good prospects and a draft pick back (our 2nd rounder). That's fine... it's still too high for the Oilers, but at least they've established a ceiling. So maybe in the end it's Visnovsky + prospect + 2nd round for TOR 1st + Morris.

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01-18-2010, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Giant Moo View Post
I'm liking the idea of pursuing Toronto's first from Boston a lot. The question is, what do we have that Boston would want, and would be willing to give up that 1st rounder? I'm not sure we have the chips.
I am all over this idea even though I expect the pick will be very costly. I think if we gave them upgrades on Wideman and Ryder(ie. Souray and Penner) they may part with that pick. Souray + Penner would make them my pick for coming out of the east baring major upgrades by another eastern contender. Anything short of assuring Boston of a great shot at a finals appearance won't get that TO1st out of there.

I'd do it because I think the 2 of Hall/Seguin/Fowler/Kabanov we get would likely help us more down the road then Penner and Souray. And Wideman and Ryder are solid roster fillers who can help during the learning curve the kids experience.

If we can't get that TO1st, then I agree with the OP that a mid and a late 1st would then be the next target.

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01-18-2010, 08:05 PM
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Giant Moo
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Originally Posted by s7ark View Post
I am all over this idea even though I expect the pick will be very costly. I think if we gave them upgrades on Wideman and Ryder(ie. Souray and Penner) they may part with that pick. Souray + Penner would make them my pick for coming out of the east baring major upgrades by another eastern contender. Anything short of assuring Boston of a great shot at a finals appearance won't get that TO1st out of there.

I'd do it because I think the 2 of Hall/Seguin/Fowler/Kabanov we get would likely help us more down the road then Penner and Souray. And Wideman and Ryder are solid roster fillers who can help during the learning curve the kids experience.

If we can't get that TO1st, then I agree with the OP that a mid and a late 1st would then be the next target.
I think trading Penner would be counter productive for the rebuild. I think it makes more sense to convert some of our middling prospects in the quantity-for-quality sense. Furthermore, the Bruins' HockeysFuture ranking (#11) says this:

Quote:
Weaknesses: The Bruins haven't yet restocked the wing positions, which are severely lacking in both quality and quantity.
Souray/Visnovsky + Omark + Chorney + 3rd for TOR 1st + (insert salary dump here)?

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01-18-2010, 08:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Giant Moo View Post
I think trading Penner would be counter productive for the rebuild. I think it makes more sense to convert some of our middling prospects in the quantity-for-quality sense. Furthermore, the Bruins' HockeysFuture ranking (#11) says this:



Souray/Visnovsky + Omark + Chorney + 3rd for TOR 1st + (insert salary dump here)?
I just don't think that gets it done. It would be nice if you were right though.

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01-18-2010, 08:12 PM
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I can see Boston dealing their 1st, not Toronto's. Another team to target is Phoenix. IIRC, they hold 2- firsts and already have some young players to build around. That city needs some playoffs to build some fanfare.

If we can pry a 1st from Boston and a 1st from Phoenix, we'd have 2- 1sts likely in the 10-20 slots. Say we end up with the 2nd, 12th and 15th overall picks, come draft day we can try moving up a few spots by adding some later picks or middling prospects.

Leaving the draft with Seguin, Pysyk and Nino Nintendorider, I'd be very happy.

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01-18-2010, 08:14 PM
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Nah, as usual HFboarders are overrating draft picks.
Unlike last year's, this draft is not supposed to be very deep. Having a couple of extra picks in the 15-30 range likely means another Alex Plante and another Riley Nash--players that are 2nd round material in an average draft year.

IMO, if they are trading guys like Souray, Visnovsky, and Penner, I want the other teams' good prospects, not draft picks coming back.

So if the Oilers are trading Souray to Boston, Wideman and Colbourne would be my preferred return.

Let's get it straight, Boston is not trading the Leafs' pick (and the chance at Hall), if Toronto is sitting in the bottom 3 at the deadline.

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01-18-2010, 08:17 PM
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Giant Moo
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Let's get it straight, Boston is not trading the Leafs' pick (and the chance at Hall), if Toronto is sitting in the bottom 3 at the deadline.
It's worth a shot

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01-18-2010, 08:21 PM
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It's worth a shot
You don't have to look any further than Oiler fan's reactions to the possibility of dealing their first rounder. We don't even want to deal it for Kovalchuk, there's no way Boston would deal it for Souray and prospects. They aren't that desperate to win now, and the possibility of adding another great, young player at next to no salary should be far too enticing for them to consider dealing Toronto's pick.

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01-18-2010, 08:34 PM
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You don't have to look any further than Oiler fan's reactions to the possibility of dealing their first rounder. We don't even want to deal it for Kovalchuk, there's no way Boston would deal it for Souray and prospects. They aren't that desperate to win now, and the possibility of adding another great, young player at next to no salary should be far too enticing for them to consider dealing Toronto's pick.
The Oilers don't have visions of Lord Stanley to make them eager like the Bruins do. As much as I like Cogs, I'd deal him plus Souray for the Leafs' pick. As for Souray + Penner, I don't think the Oilers should trade Penner, but assuming the salaries can be worked out Boston would be crazy IMO to turn down that deal.

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01-18-2010, 08:39 PM
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If you think Boston is going to trade TOs first, that is a reach. Why wouldn't they want to grab a star player with an ELC contract?

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01-18-2010, 08:58 PM
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If you think Boston is going to trade TOs first, that is a reach. Why wouldn't they want to grab a star player with an ELC contract?
For a chance at the Stanley Cup.

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01-18-2010, 08:58 PM
  #25
Giant Moo
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You don't have to look any further than Oiler fan's reactions to the possibility of dealing their first rounder. We don't even want to deal it for Kovalchuk, there's no way Boston would deal it for Souray and prospects. They aren't that desperate to win now, and the possibility of adding another great, young player at next to no salary should be far too enticing for them to consider dealing Toronto's pick.
The reason we're not going to trade it for Kovy is that it wouldn't serve our purposes to bring in a player like that if he's going to have no supporting cast for at least a few years. I don't think that's an indication of overvaluing anything, so much as a correct perception of the timing involved.

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