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We need to acquire two more first rounders

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Old
01-19-2010, 06:14 PM
  #51
gonzo11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giggli G View Post
Seriously, read an OP before you start introducing things that you think are novel ideas. Like I said, the Oilers clearly went with at least one, and really, two projects in that draft because I am pretty sure they knew that Nash was intent on Cornell. Obviously it is not possible to predict exactly how a player's development will occur, but it is possible to generally avoid players you know to be projects. That's what management needs to do.

If we had taken the BPA Cherepanov over Plante we would have been in a great situation but for his death (RIP), and although Nash might fill his draft position nicely, there were 'safer' picks even at time, not in hindsight (Max Pac, PK Subban - not sure why the latter fell so far given his pre-draft boxcars).



By safe picks I am talking about those who have clear skill AND actually have numbers to back them up over a significant period of games - this is of course tempered with leagues like SEL and KHL.
and what I am saying(was partly in response to not the op but to a few other posters) is that the oilers still have to prove they know what to do with first rounders

is sounds like you are doing some monday morning quaterbacking at the three first rounders the oilers oilers had when they drafted gagner, NAsh and Plante--we are dealing with the fact they drafted a d-man at 15 who some are suggesting will be just a 5-6 d-man and no one can say what kind of player he will be.

People are also jumping over the fact the oilers have other prospects in other leagues that may be finding themselves on the farm--oilers could have 30 first rounders--but they need to learn how to develop them and that is something the oilers show far have not been able to do

who was the last oiler pick to come up to the big team through their development program? Pisani? Reddox? none of the oilers starting 6 d-men were drafted by the oilers and only smid has spent some time on the farm. Of the top 12 fw--how many of them have spent time on the farm BEFORE joining the oilers?

Oilers need to address the development problem they have before going hog wild and adding more first rounders to the farm who maybe between 2 to 5 before they are ready for the nhl

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01-19-2010, 06:36 PM
  #52
deanmoriarty
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I would **** my pants if we could come out of the first round with Hall and Kabanov.

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01-19-2010, 07:52 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by deanmoriarty View Post
I would **** my pants if we could come out of the first round with Hall and Kabanov.

He MIGHT be more realistic than some suggestions here - he just might fall because of the Russian/injury factor. I haven't seen him play, but if he fell to 15-18, we might get him for the Flames' pick (held by the 'Yotes). That would be great to draft a star with Calgary's pick!!! (No we are not getting Nieds because we'd have to trade Penner, Vish or Hemsky straight up to a team at or close to the bottom of the league, IMO.

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01-19-2010, 08:45 PM
  #54
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There's nobody on the Oilers roster that the Oilers would be willing to trade that would get you guys a first round pick back.

Maybe if you're lucky you'll get a 1st for Souray but you'll likely have to take some salary back as well and even then it's tough to see it happening.

Souray should get at least a 2nd round pick plus a prospect but it's possible that a first round pick could be sent in return.

Gilbert may get you a late first round pick but if he's traded you're more likely going to get a 2nd round pick and either another pick or prospect.

Grebs is pretty much in the same boat as Gilbert.

Staios will get you a mid to late pick at best.

Horcoff has negative value

O'Sullivan will get you a 2nd round pick at best.

The one player that will no doubt get you guys a first round pick is Vishnovsky but if you trade him away then you'll have a real hard time replacing him. If you can get a 1st round pick plus a high end prospect then maybe it's worth thinking about but you'll have a real hard time replacing him no doubt about it.

For the Oilers it makes sense to dump contracts and get as much as possible. It's time to rebuild this thing the right way and even if you guys can load up on 2nd round picks then it's worth it.

Let's not forget that you could always package your own 2nd round pick (likely to be in the 31-33 range) with another 2nd round pick for a pick in the 20-25 range.

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01-19-2010, 08:51 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jumptheshark View Post
the ting people are over looking is the fact that this is a bad draft year and if we were to send out players for another first rounder

we need to recall the Gagner draft where we had 3 first rounderers--Plante and Nash are two first rounders who some believe are heading towards busts
Where Did you Get this Info from? Its has been stated quite a few times that the First two rounds are deep with talent....

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01-22-2010, 02:14 AM
  #56
DousedInOil
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A little bit of optimisim: Drafting

I know I don't post on here as much as I used to but I think this board could use a little bit of optimisim. Yes Edmonton sucks right now but its not like we have had any help in the past. Edmonton has had one of the best drafting records under the Kevin Lowe Era. Don't believe me? Take a quick look at the summary listed below. In almost every draft Edmonton has managed to find gems (Hemsky in 2001, Stoll in 2002, Cogliano in 2005, Gagner in 2007, Eberle in 2008 and MPS in 2009).

I think that Lowe has taken a lot of **** warranted or not because of the recent play of his Edmonton Oilers. Now, im not saying that he hasn't done his fair of stupid stuff, but he sure knows how to draft. The ironic thing is that we aren't fully going to appreciate the success of our drafting until later. Most prospects take 5+ years just to make the NHL. By that time, Lowe will probably be gone and a new GM will take credit for all the drafted players. Lets take a quick look.

2001 NHL Entry Draft

- Ales Hemsky was drafted 13th overall yet currently sits 3rd in scoring in his draft year only behind Jason Spezza and Ilya Kovalchuck. If this draft was done again, he would easily be a top 5 pick.

- Although no other player really made an impact, Doug Lynch was an asset used in the Pronger trade.

2002 NHL Entry Draft

- Originally drafted by the Edmonton Oilers, Jarret Stoll sits as the fourth highest scorer from his draft year only behind Rick Nash, Alexander Semin, and Pierre Marc-Bouchard (all drafted ahead of him).

- Despite drafting Jesse Niinimaki in the first round (which wasn't as big a stretch given the players taken after him- Jakub Klepis, Boyd Gordon, Jakub Koreis, Daniel Paille, Anton Babchuk, Sean Bergenheim, Ben Eager, Alexander Steen, Martin Vagner, Mike Morris, Jonas Johansson, Hannu Toivonen, Jim Slater, etc.) we were still able to get a 2nd round pick which eventually turned out to be Jeff Petry.

- Still, Edmonton solidified its drafting by adding Matt Greene and Jeff Drouin-Deslauriers that same year.

2003 NHL Entry Draft

- Let me be the first to say that draftin Marc Pouliot was probably the worst selection Edmonton has made under the Kevin Lowe era. Edmonton missed a franchise player this draft. They could have had a Richards, Perry, Getzlaf, Weber or Parise-esque player.

- Having said that, Pouliot was regared as a top 15 pick in that years draft then had a huge setback with mono. Bob McKenzie even thought Pouliot was even good enough to be a top 10 pick. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEfMt8vB9Ak

- Although the first round was an amazing draft year, the rest of 2003 was actually quite disappointing. In fact, Edmonton was on the most successful clubs in the later rounds. Edmonton was able to grab three very good role players in Jean Francois Jacques, Zach Stortini and Kyle Brodziak (who was later traded). To compare, lets see what other divisional rivals drafted in rounds past the second round that year. Vancouver drafted Nathan McIver. Calgary drafted Greg Moore. Minnesota drafted Danny Irmen. Colorado drafted Brad Richardson. Those are the best players drafted in later rounds by their clubs.

2004 NHL Entry Draft

- The 2004 draft was in my opinion the worst draft that Edmonton has ever had under the Kevin Lowe system. Having said that, it was probably one of the worst drafts in recent history. Outside the first two selections (Ovechkin and Malkin) the rest of the draft was pretty bad.

- Still Devan Dubnyk is starting to like a much better pick as of late and could possibly work his way up the draft rankings (which isn't exactly hard to do given how terrible this draft was)

2005 NHL Entry Draft

- Drafted late in the first round (25th overall), Andrew Cogliano currently sits at fifth in scoring from those in his draft year. Only Sidney Crosby, Bobby Ryan, Anze Kopitar and Paul Statsny are ahead of him.

- Although Edmonton draft Danny Syvret, they managed to trade him for currently Edmonton Oiler Ryan Stone.

- In addition, Edmonton was able to draft Taylor Chorney and Chris Vande Velde in later rounds. Although neither are considered to be exceptionally dynamic, both have shown lots of potential.

2006 NHL Entry Draft

- To me, this draft is kind of a wash because of the playoff run prior. The Oilers only had a total of 5 picks in this draft and none of them were in the first round. Still, they were able to draft Theo Peckham quite late in the third round.

2007 NHL Entry Draft

- Edmonton absoultely stole Sam Gagner at the 6th overall spot. How Kyle Turris, Thomas Hickey and Karl Alzner were all drafted ahead of him I will never know. Gagner currently sits Second in scoring from those in his draft year only behind the 1st overall selection- Patrick Kane.

- The Oilers also made its first swedish splash by adding a very dynamic player in Linus Omark the same year despite being drafted in the fourth round. Omark is now conisdered to be one of the best young players playing in the KHL.

- In addition, Edmonton also took a few projects in Alex Plante and Riley Nash. Although both are not having very good years, they are still solid prospects.

2008 NHL Entry Draft

- Once again, Edmonton only have 5 picks in this years draft because of the Dustin Penner signing (which has worked out fairly well given his recent play.

- Edmonton snagged Jordan Eberle late at 22nd overall and is now considered by many one of the top players outside the NHL given his two previous WJC's. If the draft was redone, he could easily be in the top 10-15.

- Still, Edmonton continued its great draftin by stealing Johan Motin, Philippe Cornet, and Teemu Hartikainen in the fourth, fifth and sixth rounds respectively.

2009 NHL Entry Draft

- How Paajarvi-Svensson fell to 10 is beyond me. If this draft was redone today he could be a top 5 pick. He outplayed Nazem Kadri, Jared Cowen, Brayden Schenn, and Oliver Ekman-Larsson in this years WJC even though they were all drafted ahead of him.

- Edmonton continued to find sleeps in Anton Lander (who had an impressive WJC), Toni Rajala (a PPG player in the WHL) and Olivier Roy (Posting unreal numbers in the QMJHL this year)

Conclusion

Perhaps the only mistake that Edmonton made since Lowe had been in town (in regards to drafting) was the Pouliot selection (which wasn't considered a terrible pick at the time). The fact remains that Edmonton has just never been in a good enough position in a good enough draft to draft elite level talent.

I hope this hasn't been beat to death and doesn't turn into a bashfest.

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Old
01-22-2010, 02:22 AM
  #57
gonzo11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smid4327 View Post
Where Did you Get this Info from? Its has been stated quite a few times that the First two rounds are deep with talent....
listening to the talking heads when they talk about this draft they are saying it is a top 3 draft with the other being far behind--most talking heads are pushing next years draft as being a deep draft

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01-22-2010, 02:39 AM
  #58
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New Jersey is most likely going to pick in the last five spots of the first round, so I'd definitely be willing to deal them Visnovsky for their 1st. If Souray heads down south to Phoenix, I'd want a 1st in return (as they have two selections).

No one else would land us a 1st, unless some team is dumb enough to trade for an Ales Hemsky they won't have in the lineup until next fall.

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01-22-2010, 10:42 AM
  #59
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I was under the impression that this was considered to be a strong draft and that 2011 was thought to be a weaker draft? If I was wrong and 2011 is the better draft class than why not make the trades for next years draft picks. It assures that our own picks both this year and next will be lower as the players we trade will be gone and the teams looking to win it this year would be more likely to trade picks and prospect. The Toronto 1st rounder that Boston has would be a nice target and it would open up more opportunities as more teams hold their own first round picks in 2011 than 2010 I believe. Plus if we actually do worse next year with the players we trade away we might have a chance at a real franchise D man in Adam Larsson, who some claim is better than Hedman. I don't know just a thought.

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01-22-2010, 11:15 AM
  #60
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So the consensus is that Edmonton could trade for Toronto's 1st round pick which is currently owned by Boston. I really don't think that Boston would trade that pick, so why not look at Boston's own pick which sits at 15th overall. I believe it would be easier to get this than the Toronto pick. And maybe try and get Toronto's 2nd round pick instead.

To Boston:
Sheldon Souray
Andrew Cogliano

To Edmonton:
Boston's 1st (15-20 OV)
Derek Morris
Toronto's 2nd

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01-22-2010, 11:25 AM
  #61
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I wonder if Phoenix is looking to bolster their lineup for a playoff run.. they would be a good team to target. With the way the Flames are struggling now... I'd look at trying to trade for that pick.

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Old
01-22-2010, 11:55 AM
  #62
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I don't think you want Toronto's 1st (via Boston). Burke is going to do everything he can to ensure that it's not a top three pick and I believe he will succeed.

I think the Oilers are better off targetting who else might fall into that spot (Atlanta? Tampa? Columbus?). As for the price, it's probably going to be an established player, a decent prospect and the team's second rounder (which would be 31st to 33rd overall).

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01-22-2010, 12:01 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DousedInOil View Post
- Although Edmonton draft Danny Syvret, they managed to trade him for currently Edmonton Oiler Ryan Stone.
Potulny actually, but both are from the 2003 draft. As are Nilsson and POS. We're crazy for picking up players from that draft year.

Oh, we also drafted Matty Roy in 2003 and he's done well for a 7th rounder.

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01-22-2010, 12:09 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Hockey Fan #751 View Post
I don't think you want Toronto's 1st (via Boston). Burke is going to do everything he can to ensure that it's not a top three pick and I believe he will succeed.

I think the Oilers are better off targetting who else might fall into that spot (Atlanta? Tampa? Columbus?). As for the price, it's probably going to be an established player, a decent prospect and the team's second rounder (which would be 31st to 33rd overall).
Burke won't want to give Boston a high pick and have egg all over his face but what choice does he have? What could he possibly give someone to make his team better now? As for trading for the first from the other struggling teams. Why would a bad team ever give away their first?

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01-22-2010, 12:10 PM
  #65
DousedInOil
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schitzo View Post
Potulny actually, but both are from the 2003 draft. As are Nilsson and POS. We're crazy for picking up players from that draft year.

Oh, we also drafted Matty Roy in 2003 and he's done well for a 7th rounder.
Ooops thats right. Thanks for the fix. I wrote it at like 1am so a few mistakes might be in it. Anyways, it shows that Edmonton could have been MUCH worse when it came to drafting.

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01-22-2010, 12:16 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by KingKhron View Post
Burke won't want to give Boston a high pick and have egg all over his face but what choice does he have? What could he possibly give someone to make his team better now? As for trading for the first from the other struggling teams. Why would a bad team ever give away their first?
So how exactly is Toronto going to move up in the rankings without sacrficing the future. No matter what, he is in a dilemma. He should just suck it up and build for the future without the first round pick.

Toronto doesn't have a pick until the 3rd round this year. Its not like they are going to pick up anyone that great with a 3rd round pick. Then in 2011 they only have one 2nd round pick. They could trade it away for a depth defenceman or forward (ala moreau or staios) but it seems kind of useless if your rebuilding to go without your first and second for the next 2 years.

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01-22-2010, 12:28 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Giggli G View Post
Clearly some of the people responding didn't read what I wrote, since I already said that we probably wouldn't be able to get a pick in the top ten. Seriously.


I agree that our assets are largely not attractive and I think management has their work cut out for them. What I am telling you is that we need to try to do this if we want to have any hope of sustained future success.

I think Souray will be the one who returns a first rounder, then management will have to try and work some magic to get another one. A high second-round pick would also likely be quite helpful as an alternative.

Giantmoo: I agree about pursuing Boston for Toronto's first, but I can't see how it would work with the cap situations of the two teams. They would have to be getting an expensive player and giving some massive salary dump back to us unless we traded Cogliano and/or a ton of prospects and other picks for that Toronto pick.

I think they dont take your post seriously because of your avatar.

As for your post, Grabbing as many first rounders is always a good idea. As long as they dont draft any more Marc Pouliots.

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01-22-2010, 12:28 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by jumptheshark View Post
who was the last oiler pick to come up to the big team through their development program? Pisani? Reddox? none of the oilers starting 6 d-men were drafted by the oilers and only smid has spent some time on the farm. Of the top 12 fw--how many of them have spent time on the farm BEFORE joining the oilers?

Oilers need to address the development problem they have before going hog wild and adding more first rounders to the farm who maybe between 2 to 5 before they are ready for the nhl

While I agree with your premise that the Oilers need to improve their development system, some of your points are misleading and facts aren't true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jumptheshark View Post
none of the oilers starting 6 d-men were drafted by the oilers and only smid has spent some time on the farm.
Of the Oilers starting 6 dmen, Souray, Vish, Grebeshkov, Gilbert, Smid and Staios, yes Smid has served time on the farm, but so did Gilbert. In 2006/07, he played 48 games with Wilkes-Barre, the AHL Affiliate for the Oilers that year. And let's be honest, the Oilers picked up Souray, Vishnovsky and Staios as veterans, all too old to be in the farm system at the time. It's a GOOD idea to pick up veteran defensemen who have made most of their developmental mistakes on other teams. So I don't actually see this as a negative. In fact, I would have no problem trading Chorney, Peckham, Plante for three (non pressbox) defenders who are currently already playing in the NHL (if the contracts made sense).

Quote:
Originally Posted by jumptheshark View Post
who was the last oiler pick to come up to the big team through their development program? .... Of the top 12 fw--how many of them have spent time on the farm BEFORE joining the oilers?
Oiler forwards picks playing on the roster: Gagner, Cogliano, Horcoff, Hemsky, Comrie, Jacques, Stortini, Pouliot, Pisani.

So in answer to your question: Pouliot, Jacques, Stortini would be the most recent.
Prior to that, Horcoff, Pisani spent time in the minors. Both Gagner and Hemsky were too young in their first year to play in the minors and that's not the Oilers fault. Comrie and Cogliano were older, having playing in US College.

If your argument is that the Oilers developmental system is poor, then being an Oilers pick is not important. Players like Nilsson, Stoll, Brule, Potulny, Schremp, Matt Greene, Stone are all in the NHL currently and has spent time in the Oilers minors. Also Troy Bodie, Danny Syvret also got their cups of coffee in the NHL with other teams.

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01-22-2010, 01:29 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by DousedInOil View Post
So how exactly is Toronto going to move up in the rankings without sacrficing the future. No matter what, he is in a dilemma. He should just suck it up and build for the future without the first round pick.

Toronto doesn't have a pick until the 3rd round this year. Its not like they are going to pick up anyone that great with a 3rd round pick. Then in 2011 they only have one 2nd round pick. They could trade it away for a depth defenceman or forward (ala moreau or staios) but it seems kind of useless if your rebuilding to go without your first and second for the next 2 years.
I agree, or at least I think we do. He might be too proud to do it but really the only assets he has that are moveable are ones that will improve Bostons draft picks like Kaberle. Man, that trade has the look of a gigantic blunder written all over it. Talk about not doing a proper evaluation of what your team is really made of.

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