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How good are Taylor Hall, Seguin & Fowler

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Old
01-19-2010, 10:01 PM
  #51
okgooil
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The fact that Seugin is 3 months younger and has the same amount of points on a team that has scored way less makes me think that in fact he is the 1# choice.

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01-19-2010, 10:05 PM
  #52
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I don't buy the argument that what Seguin is doing is more impressive because he plays on a worse team.

If Hall was on Plymouth, I think he'd be likely to have more points than he does now.

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01-19-2010, 10:18 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seachd View Post
I don't buy the argument that what Seguin is doing is more impressive because he plays on a worse team.

If Hall was on Plymouth, I think he'd be likely to have more points than he does now.
Hmmm.... Does anyone have thier TOI for comparison? Might be interesting to see.

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Old
01-19-2010, 10:19 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by nabob View Post
I think that amazing goal where Hall roofed it into the cookie shelf in the WJHC really showcased Halls shot.



Duchene would be picked 1st overall this yearif it was his draft year and he missed the cut last year. Seguin is in a similar boat this year as Duchene was last year, and he was still in the running to go 1st right up until the draft.
Fair enough, thats why I asked the question. I don't follow the juniors that close so I dont really know that much about thease guys. thx for your explanation less the attatude.

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Old
01-19-2010, 10:24 PM
  #55
The Dayvan Cowboy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by okgooil View Post
The fact that Seugin is 3 months younger and has the same amount of points on a team that has scored way less makes me think that in fact he is the 1# choice.
Three months.

Think about it, just for a second.

Three months.

It doesn't make a ****ing difference. If you're going to decide Seguin is better, don't determine it based on that.

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01-19-2010, 10:27 PM
  #56
okgooil
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Originally Posted by OmegaTheory View Post
Hmmm.... Does anyone have thier TOI for comparison? Might be interesting to see.
I would like to see that to, but from my understanding they have the same rolls. IE first line C, first line PP, same ice time, but Hall has better players beside him.

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01-19-2010, 10:28 PM
  #57
okgooil
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Originally Posted by Discipline View Post
Three months.

Think about it, just for a second.

Three months.

It doesn't make a ****ing difference. If you're going to decide Seguin is better, don't determine it based on that.
Well it is a fraction, but it adds up, at that age every day means something.

any way, I am basing it more on the same points on a worse team.

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01-19-2010, 10:28 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Discipline View Post
Three months.

Think about it, just for a second.

Three months.

It doesn't make a ****ing difference. If you're going to decide Seguin is better, don't determine it based on that.
It's acutally under 3 months. Taylor missed the 2009 draft by 2 months as he was born in November.

Taylor Hall - November 14, 1991
Tyler Sequin - January 31, 1992

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Old
01-19-2010, 10:34 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Discipline View Post
Three months.

Think about it, just for a second.

Three months.

It doesn't make a ****ing difference. If you're going to decide Seguin is better, don't determine it based on that.
I agree that the three months itself is irrelevant. But the fact that one player's a 1991 birthdate and one's a 1992 is significant. They've been in different age groups their entire lives and that should be taken into consideration.

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01-19-2010, 10:55 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by okgooil View Post
The fact that Seugin is 3 months younger and has the same amount of points on a team that has scored way less makes me think that in fact he is the 1# choice.
Lowetide has great article about this: http://lowetide.blogspot.com/2010/01...-iss-list.html
It seems like for all the talk about Hall's awesome skill, him and Seguin are pretty similar in terms of goals and assists. Seguin seems to have the better defensive reputation, at least among the reports Lowetide mentions.

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Old
01-19-2010, 11:06 PM
  #61
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Hall has size.
Hall has blazing speed.
Hall has a great shot.

There's the upside.

I'd like to see Kabanov continue to drop in the rankings. If we're lucky maybe we could pick him up too!

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Old
01-20-2010, 12:56 AM
  #62
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Hall and its not even close imo.

Everyone seems to hung up on Hall's and Sequin's regular season stats, I frankly don't put much stock into it, Hall has already proven in the past and this year that he can dominate that leage. I can't believe that people think Sequin is a leader and Hall isnt . No offense to Sequin but he hasn't led his junior team to anything yet, while Hall has led his to OHL and Memorial Cup title's as a 17 year old.

I don't think people remember or realize just how dominant Hall was in last years OHL playoffs. He posted 16 goals and 20 assists in just 20 games on route to winning the OHL playoff scoring title and MVP. He did this while going head to head against and outplaying Tavares, Kadri, Del Zotto and Carlson on a stacked London Knights team and against Bramptans elite trio of Hodgson, Duchene and Grachev. Three of them are Calder trophy candidates this year and the others are very highly regarded prospects. It just can't be stated enough that Hall was flat out better then them at younger age in those playoffs.

Hall has continually shown that he can raise his game when it matters most. He has the same drive and desire to win as Crosby. I have not seen this same type of desire and drive from Sequin.

Even if you think the skill level between the two is comparable, Hall has one thing that the Oiler's need more of then anything and its the fact that he's a pure winner and competitor. I'm not so sure Sequin is any of those two yet.

This isn't meant to belittle Sequin who is a hell of a player and prospect, but I really find Hall is getting really underrated right now.

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Old
01-20-2010, 01:10 AM
  #63
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Windsor and Plymouth played last night and by reports Seguin out performed Hall and plymouth won the game.

Seguin 2 goals and assist
Hall one assist

I am of the belief that its no use arguing over who is better as they both seem to be really good and we would be blessed to have either player to pick in the draft. Just for arguments sakes...

Hall = Messier
Seguin = Yzerman

How do you choose between Mess and Yzerman? they both were excellent players who brought their teams Stanley cups and showed great leadership on and off the ice. If anyone gets angry that were able to pick one of these players but they wanted the other seriously need to get there heads checked.

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Old
01-20-2010, 01:15 AM
  #64
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for me it's so close that I'd be happy with either one

I like the fact that Seguin is a center but I've heard Hall is a natural center as well, but Henrique took his spot this year full time

If I were to pick TODAY...I'd probably take Hall 1st based on how dominant he was in the Memorial Cup (didn't see the OHL playoffs but he dominated there too)

But there's lots of hockey left and Seguin has 71 points to Hall's 70....on a team without the stars Windsor has

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Old
01-20-2010, 01:16 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by surixon View Post
Hall and its not even close imo.

Everyone seems to hung up on Hall's and Sequin's regular season stats, I frankly don't put much stock into it, Hall has already proven in the past and this year that he can dominate that leage. I can't believe that people think Sequin is a leader and Hall isnt . No offense to Sequin but he hasn't led his junior team to anything yet, while Hall has led his to OHL and Memorial Cup title's as a 17 year old.

I don't think people remember or realize just how dominant Hall was in last years OHL playoffs. He posted 16 goals and 20 assists in just 20 games on route to winning the OHL playoff scoring title and MVP. He did this while going head to head against and outplaying Tavares, Kadri, Del Zotto and Carlson on a stacked London Knights team and against Bramptans elite trio of Hodgson, Duchene and Grachev. Three of them are Calder trophy candidates this year and the others are very highly regarded prospects. It just can't be stated enough that Hall was flat out better then them at younger age in those playoffs.

Hall has continually shown that he can raise his game when it matters most. He has the same drive and desire to win as Crosby. I have not seen this same type of desire and drive from Sequin.

Even if you think the skill level between the two is comparable, Hall has one thing that the Oiler's need more of then anything and its the fact that he's a pure winner and competitor. I'm not so sure Sequin is any of those two yet.

This isn't meant to belittle Sequin who is a hell of a player and prospect, but I really find Hall is getting really underrated right now.
Based on what I know about these players (which I concede is not a lot), I lean a bit towards picking Seguin, but I think the point you make about the players' attitudes is an important one. Not that there's anything wrong with being laid back, but I think the Oilers could use an injection of brashness right now. Someone who a bit cocky but has also has the talent to go out there and back it up, which is probably one of the reasons why #4 is sometimes compared to #11.

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Old
01-20-2010, 03:07 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Seachd View Post
I don't buy the argument that what Seguin is doing is more impressive because he plays on a worse team.

If Hall was on Plymouth, I think he'd be likely to have more points than he does now.
Interestingly, that was one of the reason they drafted Marc Pouliot because the Oilers brass & scouts said he got lots of point on a bad team. So they pass on Parise, Richards, Getzlaf etc....

I also think playing on a bad team and being a top point getter can be deceiving. Someone has to get the ice time, points and playing lots on the power play.

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Old
01-20-2010, 03:32 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Seachd View Post
I don't buy the argument that what Seguin is doing is more impressive because he plays on a worse team.

If Hall was on Plymouth, I think he'd be likely to have more points than he does now.
I don't see why, Searchd. Hall gets plenty of PP time and Boughner uses that line plenty.

More than Henrique and Nemisz, I'd say the biggest benefit Hall has that Seguin doesn't is Ryan Ellis and Cam Fowler.

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Old
01-20-2010, 09:22 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by AK Dandyman View Post
Interestingly, that was one of the reason they drafted Marc Pouliot because the Oilers brass & scouts said he got lots of point on a bad team. So they pass on Parise, Richards, Getzlaf etc....

I also think playing on a bad team and being a top point getter can be deceiving. Someone has to get the ice time, points and playing lots on the power play.
Incorrect Dandyman- Pouliot didn't get a lot of points. WHat the Oilers brass thought was that he showed alot of "character" playing on a bad team. His point totals weren't impressive.

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01-20-2010, 09:40 AM
  #69
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Incorrect Dandyman- Pouliot didn't get a lot of points. WHat the Oilers brass thought was that he showed alot of "character" playing on a bad team. His point totals weren't impressive.
He went 32-41-73 in 65GP in his draft year. A very good contribution from a team that only won 11 games. The next leading scorer had 40 points and was a -43. That's a very good point contribution for a 17 year old.

Take the two QMJHL forwards taken in the first round last year:

Philippe Paradis: 19-31-50
Jordan Caron: 36-31-67

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01-20-2010, 09:54 AM
  #70
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Not sure why there's an argument over who to pick if we get 1st or 2nd pick.

There's hearsay that Carolina, if first would pick Seguin anyway since he plays for the Plymouth Whalers-coincidentally owned by Carolina. If they're smart, they'd pick Fowler as they need a "future" Dman...unless they are giving that to Pitkanen

I'd be fine with either but I guess the prospects game gives us all a look at both Hall and Seguin since they play against each other.

I hope we don't pick Fowler. Not a bad player but we have way too many D-man. Unless he's the "only" potential franchise player present [which he's not], I hope the Oilers don't pick him if H/S are available. Of course, with Lowe's fetish for D-man, I wouldn't be surprised

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01-20-2010, 09:57 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by SK13 View Post
He went 32-41-73 in 65GP in his draft year. A very good contribution from a team that only won 11 games. The next leading scorer had 40 points and was a -43. That's a very good point contribution for a 17 year old.

Take the two QMJHL forwards taken in the first round last year:

Philippe Paradis: 19-31-50
Jordan Caron: 36-31-67
Don't forget the biggest reason the Oilers passed Parise was because the draft was held in an era where "bigger bodies" ruled the ice.

What pathetic mentality to take to the draft
Let's forget BPA, just take the big bodies

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01-20-2010, 10:03 AM
  #72
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I appreciate the debate about these 3 players but lets be honest, much of the evidence provided is anecdotal at best. SK13 & Soli have made some interesting points, and have been the most outspoken individuals, their opinions are noted. Good, because it is important. It's crucially important, this debate... I put it on you guys to put together more evidence supporting your claims, and not just rehashing the same two or three points because, when you get down to it, the debate has been about the WJC, who was left of the squad and how Hall performed in the important games. A very limited sample from one tourney. Also, the scoring, by the two players in the OHL, the teammates these players have... and Hall's MVP performance at the memorial cup...

At the very least, break down their point totals and discover how and when they score. Where are the points coming from? Get on some of the OHL boards and discuss these players. Break down your own biases, try proving yourselves wrong. At the very least, make an effort to see these players play in meaningful games. I imagine, if you were honest, and stated the actual number of games you have seen these players compete in, you would be quite embarrassed about the fuss you have put up when considering the actual knowledge you have regarding these players.

For me, I have had Hall, Seguin & Fowler all ranked at the top at one point or another. I always come back to Hall. He seems to have the game breaker mentality, and all the tools to back it up. I heard his father was a receiver in the CFL, a slot back I believe. I tried to find some analysis on him, mainly his size. If Hall can grow a few inches and put on 20 pounds, if that's genetically possible, that would end the debate for me quickly.

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Old
01-20-2010, 11:16 AM
  #73
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I don't see why, Searchd. Hall gets plenty of PP time and Boughner uses that line plenty.

More than Henrique and Nemisz, I'd say the biggest benefit Hall has that Seguin doesn't is Ryan Ellis and Cam Fowler.
Someone mentioned how Seguin's been involved in a higher percentage of Plymouth's goals than Hall has for Windsor. All that says is that Windsor has a deeper team.

It certainly helps Windsor to have Ellis and Fowler playing with Hall, but I'm not sure it actually benefits Hall himself very much. He'd put up those points regardless.

There are only so many goals that can be scored in a game, so it's not surprising that for Windsor they get spread around more. Whenever Hall's not on the ice, they're still getting goals.

Basically (and I know not everyone thinks this way), I'm not sure you'd see an increase in Seguin's totals if he was on Windsor and I certainly don't think you'd see a decrease with Hall if he was on Plymouth.

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01-20-2010, 11:25 AM
  #74
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Someone mentioned how Seguin's been involved in a higher percentage of Plymouth's goals than Hall has for Windsor. All that says is that Windsor has a deeper team.

It certainly helps Windsor to have Ellis and Fowler playing with Hall, but I'm not sure it actually benefits Hall himself very much. He'd put up those points regardless.

There are only so many goals that can be scored in a game, so it's not surprising that for Windsor they get spread around more. Whenever Hall's not on the ice, they're still getting goals.

Basically (and I know not everyone thinks this way), I'm not sure you'd see an increase in Seguin's totals if he was on Windsor and I certainly don't think you'd see a decrease with Hall if he was on Plymouth.
Had to chime in, even the best players have better stats when playing with very good players. IMO ice time is the variable that would make this picture MUCH clearer. If their ice time is similar Seguin's contributions are more impressive. Look at the Oilers since Hemsky went down everyone and his brother tries to shut down our only offensive catalyst (Penner) and the team has been lost. I'm not comparing Plymouth to the Oil since I don't know much about them, but it's always easier to score when you have talent around you even if you are THE top talent.

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01-20-2010, 11:31 AM
  #75
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Had to chime in, even the best players have better stats when playing with very good players. IMO ice time is the variable that would make this picture MUCH clearer. If their ice time is similar Seguin's contributions are more impressive. Look at the Oilers since Hemsky went down everyone and his brother tries to shut down our only offensive catalyst (Penner) and the team has been lost. I'm not comparing Plymouth to the Oil since I don't know much about them, but it's always easier to score when you have talent around you even if you are THE top talent.
Fair enough. I disagree, especially because we're talking junior, and there's no doubt in my mind Hall would be doing as well as Seguin if he were on Plymouth right now.

Of course, it doesn't matter, since it's all hypothetical anyway.

Put a lot more talent on the Pats... does Eberle necessarily get more points?

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