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How good are Taylor Hall, Seguin & Fowler

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Old
01-20-2010, 10:34 AM
  #76
s7ark
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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
Had to chime in, even the best players have better stats when playing with very good players. IMO ice time is the variable that would make this picture MUCH clearer. If their ice time is similar Seguin's contributions are more impressive. Look at the Oilers since Hemsky went down everyone and his brother tries to shut down our only offensive catalyst (Penner) and the team has been lost. I'm not comparing Plymouth to the Oil since I don't know much about them, but it's always easier to score when you have talent around you even if you are THE top talent.
Seachd does have a point BBO. When Windsor is up by 4 in the 3rd Hall will see less icetime, as he isn't needed, whether he scored the points or someone else on the stacked team did. Seguins team will rarely have those decisive leads and so he should be seeing more icetime during those hard fought battles.

It's the same reason why Eberle didn't clean house against the lesser teams at the WJC. We got to a commanding lead so the minutes got spread out and everyone got to try the PP. This kept Eberle's point total low against those teams and inflated guys like Bourque's point totals.

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01-20-2010, 10:43 AM
  #77
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Having never seen seguin play, I am in no way informed but looking at point totals Hall is at 1.75 ppg and Seguin is 1.69 ppg. So there is not much separating these 2.

I like the tenacity that Hall shows but I guess theres a risk that that aspect of his game will not translate to the NHL. If it doesn't how effective of a player will he be? I guess he will continue to grow and get stronger so even if it is an issue early in his career it may not be 3-4 years down the road. Anybody who has watched seguin play; does he have a similar approach or is he a more methodical player?

Based on some scouting reports I have read and the general consensus I wouldn't be upset with either but it appears that they are very different players. Both I guess have areas of their game which may be questioned but 9/10 I'll take the guy who appears at least from the outside to be the more determined.

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01-20-2010, 10:44 AM
  #78
Bryanbryoil
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Originally Posted by Seachd View Post
Fair enough. I disagree, especially because we're talking junior, and there's no doubt in my mind Hall would be doing as well as Seguin if he were on Plymouth right now.

Of course, it doesn't matter, since it's all hypothetical anyway.

Put a lot more talent on the Pats... does Eberle necessarily get more points?
Well if guys on Windsor are making plays to Hall and vice versa that result in scoring plays that otherwise wouldn't be with lesser linemates, then yeah I suppose so. If a players ice time is affected by having more quality surrounding him then it affects in the opposite way.

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Originally Posted by s7ark View Post
Seachd does have a point BBO. When Windsor is up by 4 in the 3rd Hall will see less icetime, as he isn't needed, whether he scored the points or someone else on the stacked team did. Seguins team will rarely have those decisive leads and so he should be seeing more icetime during those hard fought battles.

It's the same reason why Eberle didn't clean house against the lesser teams at the WJC. We got to a commanding lead so the minutes got spread out and everyone got to try the PP. This kept Eberle's point total low against those teams and inflated guys like Bourque's point totals.
Maybe so s7ark, but can you say for sure that Windsor shows mercy unlike the London teams of the past? Besides this is the OHL we're talking about not Canada Vs. Austria. Seguin produces against tough teams as well while being THE guy they key in on. I know that you are a Hall guy, my point is that we should be happy with either guy. I don't want to put too much time into debating this until I get to see a few of their games. I have yet to see Seguin play so I could watch him and completely hate his game, I know that from watching Hall I was VERY impressed.

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01-20-2010, 10:45 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by OmegaTheory View Post
Hmmm.... Does anyone have thier TOI for comparison? Might be interesting to see.
i would *personally* pay the CHL $20/year for them to keep accurate TOI statistics for the Q/O/W.... as a person who pays attention to prospects and likes doing statistical analysis, its exceptionally frustrating to not have TOI stats.... to be honest, i'd probably pay more

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01-20-2010, 10:52 AM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
Well if guys on Windsor are making plays to Hall and vice versa that result in scoring plays that otherwise wouldn't be with lesser linemates, then yeah I suppose so. If a players ice time is affected by having more quality surrounding him then it affects in the opposite way.



Maybe so s7ark, but can you say for sure that Windsor shows mercy unlike the London teams of the past? Besides this is the OHL we're talking about not Canada Vs. Austria. Seguin produces against tough teams as well while being THE guy they key in on. I know that you are a Hall guy, my point is that we should be happy with either guy. I don't want to put too much time into debating this until I get to see a few of their games. I have yet to see Seguin play so I could watch him and completely hate his game, I know that from watching Hall I was VERY impressed.
I completely agree on the bolded. And no I haven't seen all the Windsor games, I am going mostly on generic coaching standards, specifically that you don't beat up on the other guy. So I guess a lot of that post is assumptions. Feel free to disregard it. It makes logical sense in my mind, but I suppose that doesn't mean it mirrors reality

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01-20-2010, 01:17 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by frag2 View Post
Don't forget the biggest reason the Oilers passed Parise was because the draft was held in an era where "bigger bodies" ruled the ice.

What pathetic mentality to take to the draft
Let's forget BPA, just take the big bodies
And passing on a potentially elite player, because we have "too many d-men" is what? (Not that I would take Fowler over Hall and Seguin, but just taking question with your logic.)

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01-20-2010, 01:33 PM
  #82
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If we get either the number one or two guy, I'll be happy. It will still be the best draft we've ever had.

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01-20-2010, 01:35 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Doomsday Device View Post
And passing on a potentially elite player, because we have "too many d-men" is what? (Not that I would take Fowler over Hall and Seguin, but just taking question with your logic.)
If you read what I wrote, I said if he was the only "potential" franchise player, I'd pick Fowler; the fact that there are Hall and Seguin present, its a known fact we need an elite forward more than a Dman.

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01-20-2010, 01:44 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by MrOiler View Post
If we get either the number one or two guy, I'll be happy. It will still be the best draft we've ever had.
I'm hoping either you meant "highest pick" we've ever had, or you're the one psychic who can predict the future 100% correctly and know that our 2010 draft will be better than our 1st ever draft:

21. Lowe
48. Messier
69. Anderson

If you can guarantee me 2 HOFers in this draft I will agree with you.

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01-20-2010, 01:47 PM
  #85
Doomsday Device
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Originally Posted by frag2 View Post
If you read what I wrote, I said if he was the only "potential" franchise player, I'd pick Fowler; the fact that there are Hall and Seguin present, its a known fact we need an elite forward more than a Dman.
But you're still choosing team needs over BPA. In 2003 as you pointed out, the Oilers needed size and so when choosing between players closely ranked, might have chosen the bigger player as a result. What's the difference between that and what you suggest the team should do now?

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01-20-2010, 03:24 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Doomsday Device View Post
But you're still choosing team needs over BPA. In 2003 as you pointed out, the Oilers needed size and so when choosing between players closely ranked, might have chosen the bigger player as a result. What's the difference between that and what you suggest the team should do now?
How is it different? The Oilers need a forward more than they need Dman now. It just so happens that in this draft, the BPA at 1/2 happen to be forwards, Hall and Seguin. Thats the difference in this draft-those 2 player are both the BPA and the players that we need.

Not sure why there should be a "debate" over what I said I have no qualms if we happen to choose Fowler but he is definitely not BPA at 1st overall IMO.

In 2003, it was just a stupid move-they just didn't go BPA. Period.

edit: if Fowler was clearly the BPA at 1, I'd be content with Fowler but he's not. If all 3 were considered equal, who would you choose?


Last edited by frag2: 01-20-2010 at 03:30 PM.
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Old
01-20-2010, 03:52 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by okgooil View Post
I would like to see that to, but from my understanding they have the same rolls. IE first line C, first line PP, same ice time, but Hall has better players beside him.
Yeah, my thought is that since windsor is a better team maybe the roll thier lines more evenly or something like that.

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01-20-2010, 05:35 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by frag2 View Post
How is it different? The Oilers need a forward more than they need Dman now. It just so happens that in this draft, the BPA at 1/2 happen to be forwards, Hall and Seguin. Thats the difference in this draft-those 2 player are both the BPA and the players that we need.

Not sure why there should be a "debate" over what I said I have no qualms if we happen to choose Fowler but he is definitely not BPA at 1st overall IMO.

In 2003, it was just a stupid move-they just didn't go BPA. Period.

edit: if Fowler was clearly the BPA at 1, I'd be content with Fowler but he's not. If all 3 were considered equal, who would you choose?
How would you know? How would anyone know until they've played in the NHL for a number of years. Often a great player is picked way later.

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01-20-2010, 06:12 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by MrOiler View Post
If we get either the number one or two guy, I'll be happy. It will still be the best draft we've ever had.
Well I am not sure if I would go that far just yet. 1979, 1980 were pretty decent drafts. In fact if either of these guys turns out to be as good as that guy in your avatar the team picked up in the third round of the 1979 draft then I will be reasonably happy.

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01-20-2010, 08:46 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by foshizzle View Post
Incorrect Dandyman- Pouliot didn't get a lot of points. WHat the Oilers brass thought was that he showed alot of "character" playing on a bad team. His point totals weren't impressive.
We are both right. Pouliot did led his Jr team in scoring one yr. And i do recall that the Oilers said about him having the character and was a leader on a bad team.

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01-20-2010, 08:48 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by SK13 View Post
He went 32-41-73 in 65GP in his draft year. A very good contribution from a team that only won 11 games. The next leading scorer had 40 points and was a -43. That's a very good point contribution for a 17 year old.

Take the two QMJHL forwards taken in the first round last year:

Philippe Paradis: 19-31-50
Jordan Caron: 36-31-67
Thanks for pointing this out and providing the stats, SK13!

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Old
01-20-2010, 08:48 PM
  #92
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Confirmed after tonights game:

Fall 4 Hall!

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01-20-2010, 08:56 PM
  #93
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Hall definitely outshone Seguin tonight, as much as I like Seguin.

Hall earns player of the game honours as well.

Not to overstate things but: a player who - skates like the wind with his head up, can make plays, score goals, is solid defensively... I don't know why people are saying this group of top 3 players in the draft look weaker compared to years past... Taylor Hall looks like he has potential to be one of the better #1st overall picks since Sidney Crosby IMO. Beastly player.

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01-20-2010, 09:00 PM
  #94
frag2
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Originally Posted by Tyrolean View Post
How would you know? How would anyone know until they've played in the NHL for a number of years. Often a great player is picked way later.
BPA is an "at the moment" judgement. Obviously hindsight changes everything

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01-20-2010, 09:06 PM
  #95
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so is Nino going to get some recognition and make this a 4 player race....would not be surprised if all is said and done that Nino has the best career of any player picked this draft

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01-20-2010, 09:43 PM
  #96
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nino looks great, maybe the oil get a top ten pick back at the deadline and snag him...

but hall looks amazing... like ovechkin amazing IMO... no doubt who i hope we get now, not that i think seguin would be a bad consolation prize i thought he played pretty good too

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01-20-2010, 10:14 PM
  #97
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I really really really really really really wish there was some way that we could get Nino along with Hall.

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01-20-2010, 10:25 PM
  #98
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Indeed Omega. Hall + Seguin is my ultimate fantasy, but Hall + El Nino might have nudged past Hall+ Fowler. I now see this as a 4 horse race. Nino is craaaaaaazy good.

If Tambo can pull off any of these extremely unlikely scenarios, people around here will write songs, paint paintings, sculpt sculptures and create free form interpretive dances in his honour.

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Old
01-20-2010, 10:39 PM
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s7ark View Post
Indeed Omega. Hall + Seguin is my ultimate fantasy, but Hall + El Nino might have nudged past Hall+ Fowler. I now see this as a 4 horse race. Nino is craaaaaaazy good.

If Tambo can pull off any of these extremely unlikely scenarios, people around here will write songs, paint paintings, sculpt sculptures and create free form interpretive dances in his honour.
As long as people are aware of the bolded part, that's fine. But we all know there are going to be people who say "why didn't we move up, why didn't we get Nieterreiter?", and they're going to hold it against Tambellini.

I'm fairly confident that Tambellini won't be able to move up high enough to grab two of the premier players in the draft, but if he can get another pick in the 10-20 range, I'll be happy. If he can't, and we just end up with Hall, I'll still be happy.

Hall changes games. He's going to be an amazing player. Seguin probably will be too, but Hall has the wheels and the will to score that's going to push him over the top. I just hope that the Oilers win the lottery, because it'll be crushing if they don't.

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Old
01-21-2010, 01:28 AM
  #100
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Hall will have a Messier like career..the Messiah is coming..

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