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Old
01-21-2010, 06:25 PM
  #51
caniac247
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ncpuckhog View Post
I agree...that's one of my biggest concern even with Joni on the books.
Mine too. If trading Joni is going to help us in the future, then fine trade him. But it scares the crap out of me knowing we'll need 3 Top 4 defensemen if that happens. I'm hard pressed to figure out how we are going to get 2 let alone 3.

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01-21-2010, 06:33 PM
  #52
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Tripp is on tonight. Is there an off switch we can hit?

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01-21-2010, 06:35 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Hurricane_SVT View Post
Would Boston part with a #1 and more for Joni?
Depends on what the "more" is. I think we could get at least a first and a decent prospect for Joni.

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01-21-2010, 11:52 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Erik Stall View Post
Depends on what the "more" is. I think we could get at least a first and a decent prospect for Joni.
That's what I mean... I'd pull the trigger on that

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01-22-2010, 12:03 AM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik Stall View Post
Depends on what the "more" is. I think we could get at least a first and a decent prospect for Joni.
I have to say it but at this point I would want a first plus a young defenseman that has the potential to develop into a #1. About any team that would go after him right now is in playoff position to begin with and despite what is the common thought process around here (HF as a whole, not necessarily this board), a late first and merely a decent prospect wouldn't get it done for Joni, at least IMO. if he was an impending UFA that could be another matter entirely, but he's not.

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01-22-2010, 07:03 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by DaveG View Post
I have to say it but at this point I would want a first plus a young defenseman that has the potential to develop into a #1. About any team that would go after him right now is in playoff position to begin with and despite what is the common thought process around here (HF as a whole, not necessarily this board), a late first and merely a decent prospect wouldn't get it done for Joni, at least IMO. if he was an impending UFA that could be another matter entirely, but he's not.
For the most part, I agree with what you are saying......but due to his history, Joni hasn't ever really garnered the return in trades that fans expect.

If you go back to when he was traded to EDM, the Philly fan base expected a lot more.

If you go back when he was traded to CAR, the EDM fan base expected a much better return. They were consistently saying no way Eric Cole..with 1 year until being a UFA would get Joni to the Canes.

The guy has some great skills and I hope the Canes don't trade him, but if they did, it would be his 3rd team where he didn't work out. That in itself would lower his return (IMO).

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01-22-2010, 07:04 AM
  #57
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He is only signed for one more season after this so it's not like he is signed long term. He likely will ask for 6-7 million on a long term contract and I'm not sure JR pays him that. I think at most he would garner a 1st, a mid level prospect and maybe another roster player such as a 2nd/3rd line forward or a 2nd pairing d-man, but only if he is traded this season. I like Joni but for some reason I am really leery about giving him the contract he probably wants due to his enigmatic past. If we're truly rebuilding for the couple few years and if JR doesn't think he can get Joni signed to a favorable long term contract next offseason, I can see him dealing Pitkanen at the deadline for the right deal. There would definitely be plenty of teams in the market for a big time minute logger who can play in any situation.

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01-22-2010, 09:14 AM
  #58
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Joni Pitkanen for Dennis Wideman.

Doens't make any sense... because Wideman make 4 mil. too.. he's not better than Joanna.. Joanna > Wideman.... but if someone will think you can get top prospect, #1 d-man and top 6 player for Joanna... will be disappointed.

I think Carolina is ideal place for Pitkanen. He's not player for big market... i will be very angry if JR trade him.

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01-22-2010, 09:14 AM
  #59
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I don't think Joni would ask for 6-7 million. It didn't work for him in Philly and he hated Edmonton. He's now in a small market playing with 2 of his BFFs, who one of them is signed long term. He's a shy guy and he seems like one who finds a place they like and would want to stay, even if that means not getting paid as much as you could. Now his agent is a different story.

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01-22-2010, 09:30 AM
  #60
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I would gladly take Wideman though i wouldnt want to give up Joni.........Joni, Gleason, Wideman, Carson, Alberts, McBain...all 28 or younger.

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01-22-2010, 09:44 AM
  #61
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Wideman's value is down big time this year but he still should be able to get the Bruins a good return. He's a pipe dream for us though, we should be acquiring as many assets as possible, not giving them up.

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01-22-2010, 09:44 AM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ncpuckhog View Post
For the most part, I agree with what you are saying......but due to his history, Joni hasn't ever really garnered the return in trades that fans expect.

If you go back to when he was traded to EDM, the Philly fan base expected a lot more.

If you go back when he was traded to CAR, the EDM fan base expected a much better return. They were consistently saying no way Eric Cole..with 1 year until being a UFA would get Joni to the Canes.

The guy has some great skills and I hope the Canes don't trade him, but if they did, it would be his 3rd team where he didn't work out. That in itself would lower his return (IMO).
I won't disagree with what you're saying one bit. I'll just say that the situations in Philly and Edmonton were quite different then they are here right now. Philly was prettymuch forced to make a trade as Joni was a very poor fit in their locker room and in practice. I'm trying to remember who it was but the year before he was traded he was literally PUNCHED by one of the other Flyers team members in practice, with nobody visibly sticking up for him. Even still he brought in a top 4 defenseman (Jason Smith) and a former top 10 pick that had already been a 25+ goal scorer in the NHL in Lupul.

His trade here was the one where the team trading him really got hosed in the deal. Cole never worked out in Edmonton and was traded back here, so in essence Edmonton got O'Sullivan (who also isn't working out there) and a late second (which they traded for god knows what) for Pitkanen. But Joni had requested a trade from Edmonton at the time so his value was less then it should be. I haven't heard a thing about a similar request to leave here, at least not yet. And still, let's not forget that the Cole trade from here almost was Cole for Bieksa, so Erik most certainly had more value then people were thinking at the time... which is about par for the course for just about any Canes asset when I take a look at the trade board.

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01-22-2010, 10:39 AM
  #63
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I think people need realize that he's not going to sign here after next season... His highest value is to trade him now with a full year left for what ever team gets him... I think Boston is a perfect spot since they already have a stud D man and Joni won't have to be the MAN on D... Boston already has 2 #1 picks and one will be a top 4... They could easily trade there pick, probably in the 20's, and add in a 3-4 young dman, or a nice prospect and STILL be ready to compete next year

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01-22-2010, 11:25 AM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveG View Post
I won't disagree with what you're saying one bit. I'll just say that the situations in Philly and Edmonton were quite different then they are here right now. Philly was prettymuch forced to make a trade as Joni was a very poor fit in their locker room and in practice. I'm trying to remember who it was but the year before he was traded he was literally PUNCHED by one of the other Flyers team members in practice, with nobody visibly sticking up for him. Even still he brought in a top 4 defenseman (Jason Smith) and a former top 10 pick that had already been a 25+ goal scorer in the NHL in Lupul.

His trade here was the one where the team trading him really got hosed in the deal. Cole never worked out in Edmonton and was traded back here, so in essence Edmonton got O'Sullivan (who also isn't working out there) and a late second (which they traded for god knows what) for Pitkanen. But Joni had requested a trade from Edmonton at the time so his value was less then it should be. I haven't heard a thing about a similar request to leave here, at least not yet. And still, let's not forget that the Cole trade from here almost was Cole for Bieksa, so Erik most certainly had more value then people were thinking at the time... which is about par for the course for just about any Canes asset when I take a look at the trade board.
Fair points on the circumstances surrounding his previous trades. I am just concerned that anyone trading for him would have some concerns about being his 4th team in 4 years and thus reduce what they are offering in return.

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01-22-2010, 11:28 AM
  #65
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Whitney and Joni to Boston for Wideman, a #1, and good prospect... They are deep at center prospects too... Then, resign Whitney and you effectively end up with Joni for Wideman, a #1, and a prospect...

Then Cullen and Corvo to Chicago in a deal that brings Barker plus another player... Our D then doesn't look so terrible next year if we can sign one D man in the offseason

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01-22-2010, 11:37 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Hurricane_SVT View Post
Whitney and Joni to Boston for Wideman, a #1, and good prospect... They are deep at center prospects too... Then, resign Whitney and you effectively end up with Joni for Wideman, a #1, and a prospect...

Then Cullen and Corvo to Chicago in a deal that brings Barker plus another player... Our D then doesn't look so terrible next year if we can sign one D man in the offseason
Re: Barker...is he really a good fit? Or just a young, high draft pick guy who can score some?

I've tried to watch him carefully the last few Chi. games...and I can say I haven't been overly impressed. He seems a little slow and not overly physical. That said, he isn't getting much playing time and he is playing behind some very good defenders in Chi (Keith, Seabrook, Cambpell)..but I'm a little concerned that he is still in a 5/6 role.

Does anyone have more scoop on him? What type of player should we expect? Would he really be an upgrade over someone like Seidenburg or Babchuk?

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01-22-2010, 11:38 AM
  #67
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Wideman is interesting option... i remember last season first few months... this guy plays like a legit Norris contender... he was really dominate... he's still young... but i don't understand why fans think Joni will not resign here?

Like i said, Joni Pitkanen is not a player for big hockey market. He has his own problems... and this time, he enjoys to play for Carolina...

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01-22-2010, 11:41 AM
  #68
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I believe Joni will be in a position to ask for a $5-6 million contract, and that's not something we will be willing to do.

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01-22-2010, 11:42 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Hurricane_SVT View Post
I think people need realize that he's not going to sign here after next season...
Um, based on what? His past history with Edmonton and Philadelphia?

Let's see: after his entry-level deal expired, he signed a one-year deal with the Flyers, then one-year deal with Edmonton, then a three-year deal with us. Which would seem to indicate that he felt more comfortable signing a long-term deal with us than he did with the other teams. Pitkanen asked for a trade. It wasn't a "I want too much money and that's why I'm not signed" thing, it was a "I don't want to play here" thing.

Quote:
His highest value is to trade him now with a full year left for what ever team gets him... I think Boston is a perfect spot since they already have a stud D man and Joni won't have to be the MAN on D...
I think Carolina is the perfect spot for Pitkanen since we have a stunning lack of quality defensemen of any kind and particularly of those who can move the puck. But because Pitkanen isn't an Elite #1 Defenseman, that means that we shouldn't hang on to him because he is being forced to play above his role, so we'll fix this by getting a WORSE defenseman and force HIM to play above his role. Sounds like a great plan.

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Boston already has 2 #1 picks and one will be a top 4... They could easily trade there pick, probably in the 20's, and add in a 3-4 young dman, or a nice prospect and STILL be ready to compete next year
Oh, good. A second-pairing defenseman and a late first. I'm not sure who exactly that describes on the Bruins as I'd consider Hunwick/Ference/Stuart all as third-pairing defenseman, Morris is an impending UFA and Chara isn't being traded. That leaves Wideman and...guess what...he will too have to be paid one day!

I'm just wondering who exactly is replacing all these defensemen we are losing. Seidenberg and Babchuk gone, Corvo likely gone, Pitkanen gone in your scenario. If Pitkanen being gone is a financially-based decision, then you can forget about bringing in anyone as good as him via a UFA market because that wouldn't save any money. If the answer to who is replacing Pitkanen and Corvo involves the names Bryan Rodney, Brett Carson or Jamie McBain then I might as well not bother watching the next few seasons because we are going to SUCK.

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01-22-2010, 11:43 AM
  #70
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Exactly Joni is going to get 4/22 from someone... Minimum... We aren't that someone... Move him while he's at his highest value... That is now.... Buy low (Wideman) and Sell high (Joni)

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01-22-2010, 11:48 AM
  #71
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Once you put Pitkanen with Gleason, you have a legit first pairing...

Joni is not a problem... i don't think 5 mil. is that much for him... he just needs to play with passion every game... Do you prefer JR to give Pitkanen 5 mil... or to see sign Commodore for 4 mil?

because you know JR will overpay for some crap... if he won't sign Joanna.

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01-22-2010, 11:49 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by imayagainknowanton View Post
Um, based on what? His past history with Edmonton and Philadelphia?


I'm just wondering who exactly is replacing all these defensemen we are losing. Seidenberg and Babchuk gone, Corvo likely gone, Pitkanen gone in your scenario. If Pitkanen being gone is a financially-based decision, then you can forget about bringing in anyone as good as him via a UFA market because that wouldn't save any money. If the answer to who is replacing Pitkanen and Corvo involves the names Bryan Rodney, Brett Carson or Jamie McBain then I might as well not bother watching the next few seasons because we are going to SUCK.

Try to keep up Mrs Pitkanen....

Read all the the things I proposed... First, he's not signing here because he's going to get 4/22 MIN from someone... That is not us... Wake up and see that

Secondly, my two proposals would give us

Gleason-Wideman
Barker- FA
Alberts-Carson

That is better than this year's group if we sign a decent FA



It's obvious you have a love of Joni, but the guy is going to command huge #1 $$$ from someone and he's not a #1... He fits much better on a team that has a stud D man to be #1 and let Joni be himself... You just have NO possibility to look at this objectively... I like Joni, but I think we can package him in a deal to actual build us a future

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01-22-2010, 11:50 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Hurricane_SVT View Post
Exactly Joni is going to get 4/22 from someone... Minimum... We aren't that someone... Move him while he's at his highest value... That is now.... Buy low (Wideman) and Sell high (Joni)
Okay, so we get Wideman. Then Wideman has a good season and we decide "Oh, we can't afford him either!" and move him.

Then we are back to square one.

Now what? Just an endless loop of players coming in and out?

Why in the world would we not be willing to sign Pitkanen for $5.5M a year, but we'll sign Tuomo ****ing Ruutu and his career high 54 points gained playing with Staal for $3.8M/yr?

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01-22-2010, 11:50 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by caniacho View Post
Once you put Pitkanen with Gleason, you have a legit first pairing...

Joni is not a problem... i don't think 5 mil. is that much for him... he just needs to play with passion every game... Do you prefer JR to give Pitkanen 5 mil... or to see sign Commodore for 4 mil?

because you know JR will overpay for some crap... if he won't sign Joanna.
We will do neither, so I don't know why you are even mentioning that... No way we are giving Joni 4-5 years at $5-6 mil... Have some of you lost your minds in remembering what this team does salary wise? We have 2 long term big contracts, we will not have a third

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01-22-2010, 11:52 AM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Hurricane_SVT View Post
Try to keep up Mrs Pitkanen....

Read all the the things I proposed... First, he's not signing here because he's going to get 4/22 MIN from someone... That is not us... Wake up and see that

Secondly, my two proposals would give us

Gleason-Wideman
Barker- FA
Alberts-Carson

That is better than this year's group if we sign a decent FA



It's obvious you have a love of Joni, but the guy is going to command huge #1 $$$ from someone and he's not a #1... He fits much better on a team that has a stud D man to be #1 and let Joni be himself... You just have NO possibility to look at this objectively... I like Joni, but I think we can package him in a deal to actual build us a future
I see no #1 defenseman in that group, either. But yet somebody in there is going to be playing #1 minutes, are they not? And that somebody is soon going to have to be paid #1 $ from someone, yes? And then they leave and we repeat the process over and over again?

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