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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, NHL revenues, relocation and expansion.

UPD: Lightning sold to Vinik (cash + future payroll?) (UPD - BOG approves sale)

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Old
01-22-2010, 03:41 PM
  #26
Jeffrey93
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Originally Posted by Brodie View Post
How long until Jim gets involved this time?
He might be already!

What is the lease situation in Tampa anyway? That might be a factor in RimJim's involvement or lack of it.

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01-22-2010, 03:46 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by therealkoho View Post
Yep beautiful no doubt.........must've been 8-9k souls in there last night enjoying it @half of whom were snowbirds from the GWN


"If you build it they will come" unfortunately only works in the movies...............which is a big reason why those two hand picked owners by the BettMan have it up for sale again, before they go bankrupt

I was down in Tampa during their run to the SC and AMOCO was giving away two seats with every fill-up...........great arena, great area but very few hockey fans and that is the problem
whats wrong with snowbirds? i've always found it odd that the elitists use snowbird fans as some kind of a negative. just because they cheer for their old team when they're in town doesn't mean they aren't making money for the Lightning.

if anything we should be thanking the snowbirds. without them, there probably wouldn't be hockey in florida.

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01-22-2010, 03:57 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by EbencoyE View Post
whats wrong with snowbirds? i've always found it odd that the elitists use snowbird fans as some kind of a negative. just because they cheer for their old team when they're in town doesn't mean they aren't making money for the Lightning.

if anything we should be thanking the snowbirds. without them, there probably wouldn't be hockey in florida.
Doesn't say much for the hockey market when it's propped up by visitors from a different market. They aren't dependable either.

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01-22-2010, 04:01 PM
  #29
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I'd be gutted if they moved Tampa. Just about the only opportunity i get to watch live hockey.

The arena is incredible. Surely one of the best in the league.

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01-22-2010, 04:08 PM
  #30
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Doesn't say much for the hockey market when it's propped up by visitors from a different market. They aren't dependable either.
so i guess boston should be crossed off the list then, eh?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yWMXTmOCkc

this wasn't a one night thing either, most games after the lockout until last year against the habs were like this. chara got booed in his own building in the 2007 playoffs. sabres too, though not to that extent.

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01-22-2010, 04:09 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by EbencoyE View Post
whats wrong with snowbirds? i've always found it odd that the elitists use snowbird fans as some kind of a negative. just because they cheer for their old team when they're in town doesn't mean they aren't making money for the Lightning.

if anything we should be thanking the snowbirds. without them, there probably wouldn't be hockey in florida.
Elitist? Wasn't using as a negative m'boy, just pointing it out is all, as the poster above me said it's the only thing propping up Florida hockey

Mrs koho and I are planning a trip next year to the NewMexico/Arizona region and the planning revolves around when the Coyotes have a homestand, same as we do every year when we go down to Florida, I like to make sure the Bolts and Cats are both at home to attend some NHL hockey at discount pricing, every second year also includes a quick trip up to Atlanta to catch the Thrash if they're at home

I'm a snowbird myself why would I denigrate them

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01-22-2010, 04:14 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by therealkoho View Post
Yep beautiful no doubt.........must've been 8-9k souls in there last night enjoying it @half of whom were snowbirds from the GWN


"If you build it they will come" unfortunately only works in the movies...............which is a big reason why those two hand picked owners by the BettMan have it up for sale again, before they go bankrupt

I was down in Tampa during their run to the SC and AMOCO was giving away two seats with every fill-up...........great arena, great area but very few hockey fans and that is the problem
Thats funny, because there are about as many "Amoco" locations that actually provide gas in the bay area as I can count on my hand, so I call BS on that.

Biggest problem is, people seem to think fans just come overnight. Its only now that the real "first generation" of fans are coming out to support the team, the kids who were there for the first playoff run around now in their mid twenties. On top of this, a large chunk of the population in FL is people who have come down from up north, and as such, have supported Boston, Toronto, Montreal, New York, etc...

Its great, too, that so many people are willing to jump on the "**** Tampa/**** the south" bandwagon but have selective memory when poor ownership was eating away at Boston, Chicago, etc.

You'll see a lack of renewals in season tickets for the Buccaneers next year, and another rise in season ticket sales for the Bolts. Sadly, people are too dumb here to get over the location for the Rays, cause they're a damn fine ball club.

One of the biggest factors for fans not showing up is the obvious, though - there just isn't a lot of money to be tossed around by Joe Average right now. Orlando, Miami, and Tampa were all in the top-10 for worst places to live based on job opportunity and real estate cost by Forbes. Until the economy starts recovering a decent bit here, everything struggles - Rays, Bolts, and Bucs.


Last edited by Still All In: 01-22-2010 at 04:21 PM.
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01-22-2010, 04:24 PM
  #33
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Thats funny, because there are about as many "Amoco" locations that actually provide gas in the bay area as I can count on my hand, so I call BS on that.

Biggest problem is, people seem to think fans just come overnight. Its only now that the real "first generation" of fans are coming out to support the team, the kids who were there for the first playoff run around now in their mid twenties. On top of this, a large chunk of the population in FL is people who have come down from up north, and as such, have supported Boston, Toronto, Montreal, New York, etc...

Its great, too, that so many people are willing to jump on the "**** Tampa/**** the south" bandwagon but have selective memory when poor ownership was eating away at Boston, Chicago, etc.

You'll see a lack of renewals in season tickets for the Buccaneers next year, and another rise in season ticket sales for the Bolts. Sadly, people are too dumb here to get over the location for the Rays, cause they're a damn fine ball club.

One of the biggest factors for fans not showing up is the obvious, though - there just isn't a lot of money to be tossed around by Joe Average right now. Orlando, Miami, and Tampa were all in the top-10 for worst places to live based on job opportunity and real estate cost by Forbes. Until the economy starts recovering a decent bit here, everything struggles - Rays, Bolts, and Bucs.
.......during their SC run which was a few years back, seems you missed that, although I use whatever station that I happen to be passing by, may have been AMOCO, may have been Chevron WTF knows really........up here in Canada we only have the socialist state run gas stations that are called Petrol-Can(klnd of like a pun no?) and if your really lucky they'll have a doctor on duty that Tuesday and you can get a check-up or possibly the stitches you needed to get from the high stick on Sunday night. Why Tuesday you may ask? Because my house number is uneven and for my street that means I get Tuesday filling rights. Bill O'Reilly will be interested in this as another example of the Canada's broken socialist system

No recession in the GWN right?...............that's right socialism FTW


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01-22-2010, 04:35 PM
  #34
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.......during their SC run which was a few years back, seems you missed that, although I use whatever station that I happen to be passing by, may have been AMOCO, may have been Chevron WTF knows really........up here in Canada we only have the socialist state run gas stations that are called Petrol-Can(klnd of like a pun no?) and if your really lucky they'll have a doctor on duty that Tuesday and you can get a check-up or possibly the stitches you needed to get from the high stick on Sunday night. Why Tuesday you may ask? Because my house number is uneven and for my street that means I get Tuesday filling rights. Bill O'Reilly will be interested in this as another example of the Canada's broken socialist system

No recession in the GWN right?...............that's right socialism FTW
Nice. My apologies if I came across a little snarky in my post, but i'm just waiting for the "LALALALALA DOESNT MATTER MAKE IT SEVEN" posts.

I've lived here all my life and I don't recall them giving away tickets with a fillup, although they did do a lot of raffles and whatnot with local businesses (one of those 'hey join us for the fun and maybe you can be a sponsor next year' deals). They did a TON of raffles with anything from Subway to gas stations to Publix (local supermarket chain), and tons of radio stuff.

I don't know where the rest of your post was going but it struck me as very Grandpa Simpson, where he talks about sticking an onion on his belt.

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01-22-2010, 08:53 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Bobsled Gainey View Post
Nice. My apologies if I came across a little snarky in my post, but i'm just waiting for the "LALALALALA DOESNT MATTER MAKE IT SEVEN" posts.

I've lived here all my life and I don't recall them giving away tickets with a fillup, although they did do a lot of raffles and whatnot with local businesses (one of those 'hey join us for the fun and maybe you can be a sponsor next year' deals). They did a TON of raffles with anything from Subway to gas stations to Publix (local supermarket chain), and tons of radio stuff.

I don't know where the rest of your post was going but it struck me as very Grandpa Simpson, where he talks about sticking an onion on his belt.
......a snarky but satirical(about mis-conceptions) reply on my part as well I suppose .....it's all good though

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01-22-2010, 09:37 PM
  #36
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Not a good sign if you have what would seem to be 'local buyers' doing their due diligence on the business because they are interested in buying it...then after seeing the books losing interest.
How bad can it be with a nice rink? If it's simply mis-management I'd think the interested buyers wouldn't flee, same goes for the bad economy reasoning....I'd think they would just come in with a lower offer.

The sale price ultimately is the one agreed to by the two parties. OK put in $95 MM, and has been making monthly payments in the meantime on the remaining $105 MM (+$2MM on the new loan).

When Davidson was trying to sell the team, there was talk of them losing $10-15 MM per year from operations. If I recall correctly, Davidson had paid $100 MM for the team in 1999?

The team ~can~ be sold, but someone needs to take a bath.

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01-23-2010, 06:59 AM
  #37
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so i guess boston should be crossed off the list then, eh?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yWMXTmOCkc

this wasn't a one night thing either, most games after the lockout until last year against the habs were like this. chara got booed in his own building in the 2007 playoffs. sabres too, though not to that extent.
Yeah yeah yeah....and Chicago's attendance stunk for a couple years too. Comparing an Original Six team that has been around since 1924 (or the Hawks since 1926) to a team that has been around since 1992 is a bit silly. Boston and Chicago have proven themselves over the long haul as NHL markets.

Tampa Bay seemed to be establishing themselves as a strong hockey market, they drew well for a while.... during their initial success (made playoffs within first 4 years) the team was rumoured to be inching close to bankruptcy and Owners were accused of money laundering. So even during initial successes this team was losing money.

This is a team that has basically done everything the sunbelt fans claim a team down there has to do to succeed. And they still lose money and have shakey ownership. What more does the team have to do to make this a stable franchise in Tampa Bay?

In their 18 year life (16 full seasons):
- Made playoffs 5 times, once in their first 4 years
- Won the Stanley Cup
- Built a beautiful new arena
In the past 7 years (6 seasons):
- Won the Stanley Cup
- Made playoffs 4 years straight

What more do you want??? In the most recent history of the team they have made the playoffs 4 years out of 6 and have a Stanley Cup win. They have some of the cheapest tickets in the league...even when they do draw well...they seem to lose money. I don't get it.

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01-23-2010, 09:40 AM
  #38
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http://www.theglobeandmail.com/blogs...rticle1440741/
Quote:
They are right, up to a point. The current ownership survives at the pleasure of Palace Sports and Entertainment, which holds one big loan and guaranteed another, to Galatioto Sports Partners, for a total north of $100-million. Now that Palace Sports boss Karen Davidson has let it be known she would like to sell her main sports property, the Detroit Pistons of the NBA, it only makes sense that she would also like to get the Lightning off her books.
...
Oh, and a word about the advances the Lightning is getting from the NHL on its portion of revenue-sharing from this season. This is not unusual for the league’s needier teams. The problems arise when those advances fail to cover the losses and the team needs direct loans as well, a la the Phoenix Coyotes.
When Rod Bryden owned the Ottawa Senators, the team was always into the league for advances on its shared revenues. There was no revenue sharing in the 1990s but teams could get advances on television and merchandise money and the like. Bryden once told me, when I called some years ago to inquire about a $14-million tab the Sens had with the NHL, that it was just like a line of credit. Once the broadcast money was divvied up, he said, the Sens would pay down their bill.

...
The second problem for Koules is the lingering recession. Florida was hit hard because much of its economy is based on real estate, in which people have a second home down south, and that has yet to bounce back. The unemployment rate was announced on Thursday as 12.4 per cent in the Tampa area.

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01-23-2010, 12:02 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/blogs...rticle1440741/
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Oh, and a word about the advances the Lightning is getting from the NHL on its portion of revenue-sharing from this season. This is not unusual for the league’s needier teams. The problems arise when those advances fail to cover the losses and the team needs direct loans as well, a la the Phoenix Coyotes.
When Rod Bryden owned the Ottawa Senators, the team was always into the league for advances on its shared revenues. There was no revenue sharing in the 1990s but teams could get advances on television and merchandise money and the like. Bryden once told me, when I called some years ago to inquire about a $14-million tab the Sens had with the NHL, that it was just like a line of credit. Once the broadcast money was divvied up, he said, the Sens would pay down their bill.
The difference is that the Senators joined the league using loans, which the NHL approved...they then had to play in a rink that seats under 10,000 for 4 years...they had to foot the $170M bill for a new arena on their own (minus $6M kicked in by the government) as well as buidling their own highway off/onramps.

The Senators still carry 66% of the franchise value in debt (even after a bankruptcy).

The Lightning have 55% of their franchise value in debt even though their $139M arena was heavily subsidized by the city, county & state.

In the years of Ron Bryden I would expect the Senators to be losing money simply due to interest on their loans and I would also expect them to be advanced shared money from the NHL. Tampa on the other hand....they started playing in a facility with too many seats....set an NHL attendance record...won a Cup...had an arena basically built for them....and still lose money and need advances just to meet payroll and are now 18 years later defaulting on loans.

If the only point of that section of the article is to say "this has been done before", that's fine. But any further comparisons between the two team's and their finances show how drastically different the situations are/were. Tampa should have been than and therefore now in a MUCH better position to be financially stable than the Senators.

Makes me wonder...if this team went to the Karmanos group what the situation would be like now....or if it went to the Hamilton group...

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01-23-2010, 05:37 PM
  #40
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I thought you had to have 14,000 in attendance to qualify for revenue sharing?

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01-23-2010, 06:07 PM
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I thought you had to have 14,000 in attendance to qualify for revenue sharing?
If indeed it's an advance, then they must be assuming a team would qualify for the full share. Whether or not they reconcile that at the end of the year is unknown.

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01-25-2010, 03:11 AM
  #42
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If indeed it's an advance, then they must be assuming a team would qualify for the full share. Whether or not they reconcile that at the end of the year is unknown.
uh oh in the never to be forgoton words - its deja vu all over again .

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01-25-2010, 05:38 AM
  #43
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The difference is that the Senators joined the league using loans, which the NHL approved...they then had to play in a rink that seats under 10,000 for 4 years...they had to foot the $170M bill for a new arena on their own (minus $6M kicked in by the government) as well as buidling their own highway off/onramps.

The Senators still carry 66% of the franchise value in debt (even after a bankruptcy).

The Lightning have 55% of their franchise value in debt even though their $139M arena was heavily subsidized by the city, county & state.

In the years of Ron Bryden I would expect the Senators to be losing money simply due to interest on their loans and I would also expect them to be advanced shared money from the NHL. Tampa on the other hand....they started playing in a facility with too many seats....set an NHL attendance record...won a Cup...had an arena basically built for them....and still lose money and need advances just to meet payroll and are now 18 years later defaulting on loans.

If the only point of that section of the article is to say "this has been done before", that's fine. But any further comparisons between the two team's and their finances show how drastically different the situations are/were. Tampa should have been than and therefore now in a MUCH better position to be financially stable than the Senators.

Makes me wonder...if this team went to the Karmanos group what the situation would be like now....or if it went to the Hamilton group...
You missed one of the most important facts. The provincial government (Rae Days ) ) was actively hostile to the arena being built. Not only was the rink construction delayed by the province (state government) for 'environmental concerns' - a small creek about the size of a garden hose ran through through the rink construction area, but the team was also forced to build their own off-ramp.

Since the same provincial government gave 1 BILLION dollars to Toronto for the skydome, it's not because of any ideological concerns.

Anyway, imagine that happening in an American city - a team offers to build it's own arena without any taxpayer money - and the state government turns them down. Not sure if this has happened in a US city ?

I can't believe that would happen. Mod: deleted.


Last edited by Fugu: 01-25-2010 at 11:00 AM. Reason: OT
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01-28-2010, 08:45 PM
  #44
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The Tampa Bay Lightning ownership fiasco could come to an end soon, but speculation that the team will deal captain Vincent Lecavalier is just beginning to heat up.

According to multiple sources, the NHL is negotiating the sale of the Lightning and the five-acre parcel of land adjacent to the St. Petes Times Forum from the OK Hockey Group to Boston-based financier Jeffrey Vinik for an estimated price of $170 million.
http://www.thehockeynews.com/article...uncertain.html

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01-28-2010, 09:17 PM
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Vinny leaving will not help in any scenario with the fan base. My 8-yr old would be quite a bit upset for a long while.

The fan base crumbling had so much more to do with the stagnation after the cup win. Starting with the fact we got screwed out of another season with the team they had in '04. Yeah they were making the playoffs the next 2 years, be we all knew they were not going anywhere. ****** moves with goaltending, and defense also made it just feel like nothing was getting accomplished.

Fans can be dumb, but we could see the cliff to the bottom approaching. Then our salvation was supposed to be replacing almost the entire team and hiring a coach that was already HATED by the fan base?

Its one thing to see your team decline because it is forced to by having good players leave via FA. But it was another to continually watch it happen due to gross stupidity and ineptitude. It was a train wreck in progress that was too hard to watch for a lot of fans.

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01-28-2010, 10:25 PM
  #46
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I don't want to veer of the business aspect too much but I just don't see Lecalvaier be moved. Mainly because no one will want to pick up that contract. Even Montreal.

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01-28-2010, 10:31 PM
  #47
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This team was handled poorly all together post lockout. Feaster was worthless as a GM. I'm not a fan of OK hockey by any means but let's not sit here and act like this was all their fault. At least they did SOMETHING with the roster and failed instead of signing longshots from Europe and just accepting the failure beforehand.

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01-28-2010, 11:23 PM
  #48
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Doesn't say much for the hockey market when it's propped up by visitors from a different market. They aren't dependable either.
my first cousin goes down to Florida for a month every year!!! i can't remember if he said he bought for the Panther or the Lightning ...22 games for $1022 and he gets dinner +++++ excellent seats etc etc....hell i can't get 2 tickets for 3 games with the Leafs at that price....i saw Washington last year and the ticket were $400 bucks for 2 seats + Parking + beer+ pizza for me and my kid almost $500 bucks ++++ later for 1 game ...... Hockey fans in Florida get absolute bargains....Leaf fans get absolutley screwed!!!

forgot to mention included in the price he paid he got to see the Leafs twice while he was there...isn't that a kick in the ass for us Leaf fans!!!
another cousin of mine Rob...he flies to Anaheim and watches th Leafs cheaper than it would cost him for 2 tickets at the ACC and he rubs it in..then goes off to Vegas and gambles and comes home extremley happy!!!!


Last edited by OlderTimer*: 01-28-2010 at 11:46 PM. Reason: forgot to mention
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01-29-2010, 04:37 AM
  #49
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my first cousin goes down to Florida for a month every year!!! i can't remember if he said he bought for the Panther or the Lightning ...22 games for $1022 and he gets dinner +++++ excellent seats etc etc....hell i can't get 2 tickets for 3 games with the Leafs at that price....i saw Washington last year and the ticket were $400 bucks for 2 seats + Parking + beer+ pizza for me and my kid almost $500 bucks ++++ later for 1 game ...... Hockey fans in Florida get absolute bargains....Leaf fans get absolutley screwed!!!

forgot to mention included in the price he paid he got to see the Leafs twice while he was there...isn't that a kick in the ass for us Leaf fans!!!
another cousin of mine Rob...he flies to Anaheim and watches th Leafs cheaper than it would cost him for 2 tickets at the ACC and he rubs it in..then goes off to Vegas and gambles and comes home extremley happy!!!!
Why does he buy a 22 game ticket package when he is there for a month?
I know 3 people that have gone to Panthers games....not a single one paid. They get back and tell me about going to the game and I ask "Did you get free tickets?" they say "Yeah...did I tell you this?"..."Nope...just a hunch."
They are from Ontario and were down there for work stuff...intended on paying but somehow stumbled into free tickets.

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01-29-2010, 10:21 AM
  #50
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yeah thats the craziest at Florida.
I know college kids that go and get in for like 5 bucks.
Tampa is amazing though, college kids get $150 low bowl, mid-ice seats for $20 at any game!
Really, the secret around here is putting a competitive team on the ice, and then the fans come.
Just like anywhere else.
I may be the only one that has this opinion, but I really feel like we were going the right way with OK as the owner, it was LB who was the problem.
They have good promotions, they cater to the college kids (tampa has tons of them), and they are starting to gather some promising prospects, young players.

I just hope that this new guy doesn't ruin it all.

W.e. keep Lawton and I'll be okay.

StammerHed2010 is offline   Reply With Quote
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