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Old
01-24-2010, 12:31 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by dashingsilverfox View Post
Oh, I agree but remember this management team was ready to ship out Penner, Cogliano and Smid.

Do you have confidence they have a clue how to build a winner?
No, I don't. I'm tired of the constant whoring for a top line player that ends with the team with egg on its face. Once, after the Pronger debacle, was fine. Trying to build with expensive veterans after the Cup year was fine, but I agree that Oilers management missed the memo that the Cup run was lightning in the bottle and the core of the team was not built to sustain.

And it seemed like there was a serious problem with the leadership core of this team that was only partially addressed (coaching).

But I don't care too much about that anymore. I care about drafting, development, and eventually retention.

I will say that so far, step 1 over the last few years has been pretty good. We've hit on a lot of guys who have remained high-profile following their draft.

I'm concerned about the 2nd greatly. I'd agree with Replacement - the leadership core of this team needs to shift towards high-character professionals dedicated to turning the young talent into intelligent and industrious stars. I don't know if Weight had any intention or interest in coming back here, but I'd have moved heavens to try and get him here as well.

But I flat out don't know if any effort was made or if Weight had any interest. So I can't possibly criticize the team for not bringing in him or any other named player.

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01-24-2010, 12:33 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by dashingsilverfox View Post
This would be the same GM that signed Khabibulin to a four year contract?

Yikes.
Ah, i can do one better! DL lives with the Cloutier signing, a two year debacle, that resulted in a buy out.. That decision did put the Kings back, but with the injuries to your players and goaltender, maybe like the Kings, it has forced into play what you and many fans express a desire for.

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01-24-2010, 12:37 PM
  #53
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I think this column would carry a lot more weight (pun intended) if it had been penned by someone other than Terry Jones who's had it in for Katz since before Day 1 of his ownership. Too bad nobody from either the Journal or even the Oilers' organization has the balls to say this to the boss because it needed to be said.

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01-24-2010, 12:41 PM
  #54
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I think this column would carry a lot more weight (pun intended) if it had been penned by someone other than Terry Jones who's had it in for Katz since before Day 1 of his ownership. Too bad nobody in the Oilers' organization has the balls to say this to the boss because it needed to be said.
Well, the Tychkowski piece says pretty much the same thing.

I wonder if the Journal will get aboard the train at some point.

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01-24-2010, 12:41 PM
  #55
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The thing that really annoys me about is from about 1992-2000 or so the orgainization had been on the brink of moving and put on a huge PR campaign to sell season tickets and keep the team in Edmonton. SO fan support has been great even though the team has been only mediocore, but at least competitive enough to stay close to a playoff spot. Now when the team is really tanking and rebuilding according to this guy attendance is going to drop because the orgainization is untrustworthy and the product on the ice is poor.

Is it not good enough for the fans of the Oiler just to have an NHL team? or do they have to be at least semi-competitive to sell out games?

As for Katz being unavailable, boo hoo!

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01-24-2010, 12:45 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by dashingsilverfox View Post
Well, the Tychkowski piece says pretty much the same thing.
I didn't know. I only read the Sun if someone posts a link on a message board.

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01-24-2010, 12:46 PM
  #57
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The Oilers won't tell their fans what their plan is, but from what we've been led to believe by their on-air spin doctor, the goal is to finish in the lottery four years in a row, load up like Washington, Pittsburgh and Chicago did and rise back up to glory

I wonder who this "spin doctor" would be...
Yes please.

And if I lived in Edmonton I would be happy to take the season tickets off a luke warm fan anyday. If Katz came out and said "We're going to tank for the next three year and pull a Pittsburgh/Chicago lite." would the majority of season ticket holders pay to go through it? I don't know that they would. I know I would.

The only thing that upsets me is that Kevin Lowe hasn't been held accountable. Mac-T payed the price last year for his bunk GMing. Tamballini will probably pay next 'cause he can't clean up this mess. But when does Kevin Lowe pay. I hate to say it but Burke was right when he said "Kevin Lowe ran this organization into the ground."

Any way I for one would love to see them tank for at least two years and get a couple top three pic's. Edmonton obviously can't attract any top free agents so our only hope is through the draft.

Cheers to craping our pants for couple more years!

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01-24-2010, 12:47 PM
  #58
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Hey, what happened to your vcash?

Betting on long shots isn't wise.

I bet on some of your sure things. *******. Oilers should of lost that one against Detroit.

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01-24-2010, 12:49 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by dashingsilverfox View Post
I assume you mean Gagner and yes that is possible but there are a few size and speed differences at play there.
I think they have a point though. Gagner might not become a legitimate first liner, Eberle, MPS could easily bust. Petry and Smid could never be top 4 players. Hemsky might leave, Penner might regress. But I think it's reasonable to think that a few of these players will remain Oilers and be difference makers. I think that presuming that none of these players will be legitimate pieces is not the most realistic evaluation. In addition, I think it's reasonable to think the Oilers could add a player via trade of a Visnovsky or by UFA route to add a player like Halak. All in all, I think 7 years is overboard.

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01-24-2010, 12:53 PM
  #60
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I think they have a point though. Gagner might not become a legitimate first liner, Eberle, MPS could easily bust. Petry and Smid could never be top 4 players. Hemsky might leave, Penner might regress. But I think it's reasonable to think that a few of these players will remain Oilers and be difference makers. I think that presuming that none of these players will be legitimate pieces is not the most realistic evaluation. In addition, I think it's reasonable to think the Oilers could add a player via trade of a Visnovsky or by UFA route to add a player like Halak. All in all, I think 7 years is overboard.
I think 7 years is tad long too but there's word this morning that the Oilers are scouting Jagr.

Now what if bringing in Jagr, Eberle and MPs next season resulted in the Oilers being good enough to finish 8-10 and forego high draft choices?

If they sign Jagr I think you'll have a pretty good indication that they just don't get it.

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01-24-2010, 12:54 PM
  #61
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Jones and Tychkowski say what's on everyone's mind, and they get chastised for it...would you rather they act like the normal Edmonton media and not question a damned thing?

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01-24-2010, 01:12 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by dashingsilverfox View Post
I think 7 years is tad long too but there's word this morning that the Oilers are scouting Jagr.

Now what if bringing in Jagr, Eberle and MPs next season resulted in the Oilers being good enough to finish 8-10 and forego high draft choices?

If they sign Jagr I think you'll have a pretty good indication that they just don't get it.
Very true. There is a world of difference between being able to rebuild in 3-4 years and having the vision to successfully do so. However, the article was saying 7 years was necessary, which I don't believe.

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01-24-2010, 01:19 PM
  #63
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If they sign Jagr...ugh, I don't even want to think about it.

Maybe they won't. I hope they don't.

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Old
01-24-2010, 01:19 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by dashingsilverfox View Post
The question is, does Edmonton have solid pieces in the organization.

Do they have a Lecavalier, a St.Louis or a Stamkos?

Do they have a Statsny, a Wolski, a Duchene, a Stewart and an O'Reilly.

Do they have a Kopitar, a Douhty, a Brown, a Simmonds, a Quick?

I don't really need to lay out the arrows Chicago has in the quiver, do I?
For all your talk of their rebuilding processes being the better one, you don't really follow them at all, do you?

You ask about Stewart and Simmonds, two players who just happened to break out when things fell into place ahead of them. I suppose my answer would be:

Gilbert Brule (age 21): .269 GPG, .585 PPG
Chris Stewart (age 23): .356 GPG, .733 PPG
Wayne Simmonds (age 21): .256 GPG, .659 PPG

Dustin Penner (age 27): .420 GPG, .840 PPG
Wojtek Wolski (age 24): .320 GPG, .920 PPG
Dustin Brown (age 24): .236 GPG, .647 PPG

Sam Gagner (age 20): .243 GPG, .612 PPG
Ryan O'Reilly (turns 19 next month): .100 GPG, .360 PPG

Ryan Potulny (age 25): .294 GPG, .530 PPG
Troy Brouwer (age 24) : .274 GPG, .500 PPG

And just for the hell of it:

Ales Hemsky (age 26): 0.313 GPG, 1.00 PPG
Vincent Lecavalier (age 29): 0.254 GPG, 0.98 PPG
Martin St Louis (age 34): 0.255 GPG, 1.08 PPG

The question of Drew Doughty, Steven Stamkos, Patrick Kane, Jonathan Toews, Matt Duchene: That's the fair one. Gee, how did those teams get those players again? How will we ever follow them on that route from 29th overall?

Another big question is Paul Statsny and Anze Kopitar. Huge factors for their teams and proof that when things fall into place on the top of the roster, it fosters an environment for the players at the bottom of the roster to develop and produce in low-pressure situations like Chris Stewart and Wayne Simmonds are doing.

Depending on our prospect pool, it will probably take more than a year. But 7? Come on.

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01-24-2010, 01:24 PM
  #65
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This rebuild COULD take 7 years depending on who's in charge.

Theres just no faith in Lowe for me right now...

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01-24-2010, 01:30 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by SK13 View Post
For all your talk of their rebuilding processes being the better one, you don't really follow them at all, do you?

You ask about Stewart and Simmonds, two players who just happened to break out when things fell into place ahead of them. I suppose my answer would be:

Gilbert Brule (age 21): .269 GPG, .585 PPG
Chris Stewart (age 23): .356 GPG, .733 PPG
Wayne Simmonds (age): .256 GPG, .659 PPG

Dustin Penner (age 27): .420 GPG, .840 PPG
Wojtek Wolski (age 24): .320 GPG, .920 PPG
Dustin Brown (age 24): .236 GPG, .647 PPG

Sam Gagner (age 20): .243 GPG, .612 PPG
Ryan O'Reilly (turns 19 next month): .100 GPG, .360 PPG

Ryan Potulny (age 25): .294 GPG, .530 PPG
Troy Brouwer (age 24) : .274 GPG, .500 PPG

And just for the hell of it:

Ales Hemsky (age 26): 0.313 GPG, 1.00 PPG
Vincent Lecavalier (age 29): 0.254 GPG, 0.98 PPG
Martin St Louis (age 34): 0.255 GPG, 1.08 PPG

The question of Drew Doughty, Steven Stamkos, Patrick Kane, Jonathan Toews, Matt Duchene: That's the fair one. Gee, how did those teams get those players again? How will we ever follow them on that route from 29th overall?

Another big question is Paul Statsny and Anze Kopitar. Huge factors for their teams and proof that when things fall into place on the top of the roster, it fosters an environment for the players at the bottom of the roster to develop and produce in low-pressure situations like Chris Stewart and Wayne Simmonds are doing.

Depending on our prospect pool, it will probably take more than a year. But 7? Come on.
I don't think it will take 7 years either if done right but some of you comparisons are a bit specious.

Sure the Oilers have Hemsky but the Bolts already have Vinny, St. Louis, Stamkos and Hedman.

Sure the Oilers have Potulny and I don't need to remind you what else the Hawks have.

Then for some reason you want to compare Gagner to O'Reilly, Wouldn't Statsny be a more apt comparison since Gagner has been tagged as the first line centre in waiting?

Your Brule comparison seems like a decent one but he appears to have fallen into an elevator shaft in the last 20 games.

So tell me, how long do you think, given the assets in the system do you think it will take the Oilers to make the playoffs again?

And how many years before they contend for a cup?

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01-24-2010, 01:41 PM
  #67
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Is Terry Jones really that dumb? Does he expect Katz to come out and say "The best we can do with a team that has already lost 270 man-games due to injury & illness is stay the course and get a high draft pick?"

Almost noone ever wins the cup without one of their own top 5 draft picks developed on their own team. Trading for some more "almost really good ones", throwing money at ufa's who don't want to be here and/or waiting for the next Ryan Getzlaf to come along isn't paying off here. Injuries and illness got us this close to a potential franchise player, we'd be stupid to veer off course at this point.

I don't know what more Jones wants from Katz. The guy has shown he is willing to do whatever he can to make this team win, he isn't holding anything back financially, and imo anyone Jonezy-ish enough to jump off the banwagon now is more than welcome to swap allegiances or pick another sport. Maybe Katz is just culing the herd so that real fans can get seats for a while.

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01-24-2010, 01:49 PM
  #68
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Terry Jones is way ob on this. He comes off like a whiny baby. It is not Katz's job to sell the Oilers to the public. He has people for that. He should be keeping his nose out of things, unless it is to bring in a new executive. I would revoke Jones access. You want in? Buy a ticket. The days of getting fat off the Oilers is over for you.

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01-24-2010, 01:55 PM
  #69
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The Jones letter was another of his whines about Katz being a reclusive owner. Katz good or bad has hired guys to fix the hockey team the one thing Jones can grill Katz about is the arena situation.

In the large series of articles in the sun about how the Oilers have come to be where they are Tychkowski touched on something. It is something I've talked about before and it concerns our drafting philosophy. I'll quote the part in the article I'm referring to.

Stop drafting safe, two-way players who "think the game" really well. Third liners grow on trees, and you can teach a chimp to kill penalties.

It's the high end talent that Edmonton never seems to get. Go for the home run on every single pick, and if just one of them turns out, he can change a teams future - think Zetterberg and Datsyuk. On his best day, Riley Nash isn't a difference maker.

Look at the Wings; they draft their stars and get their role-players off the open market. Edmonton drafts role-players and tries to get stars on the open market. Who do you think is right?


The way to insulate yourself against busts is to draft the best most skillful players in most rounds. If your top guy fails then the next or the next guy who have skill might turn out. Even the last few years when the scouting staff has been given a lot of credit for getting some skill players we have still made picks too early that just don't make sense to me.

A few examples, as mentioned by the writer drafting Nash when very quickly people are talking about best scenario potential a 2nd liner maybe, but more likely 3rd line material.

Alex Plante, by-passing Cherapanov who fell into our laps for a big defensemen who needs work on his skating and really has no potential to be a top two guy.

This past year it continued with Anton Lander and Cameron Abney. Though people seem to love the Lander pick I didn't like it. Too early to take a guy proclaimed to be a 3rd liner right out of the gates. Abney was even worse, taking a fighter in the 3rd round.

As Tychkowksi said, 3rd liners and lower can be found cheap in a lot of locations. Drafting 3rd line or 4 or lower Dman prospects in the early rounds is not smart.

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01-24-2010, 01:56 PM
  #70
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It is interesting how almost everyone is ignoring the gist of the column.......

"virtually every hockey savvy citizen knowing that the veteran guys with the big contracts ó $24.35 million to players on a defence which turns into turnstiles almost every night, $7 million to Shawn Horcoff with the worst plus-minus in the league and a captain in Ethan Moreau who appears to have abdicated ó need to get gone."

Followed by:

"Itís great to have an owner willing to spend to the cap. But what good is it when you spend stupid and leave no cap room to work with this year or even next year.

Are you willing to eat some big contracts and get creative financially to figure out a way, at the cost of millions, to cover mistakes your hockey people have made?"

Let's ignore that part - the idiocy of Kevin Lowe.........

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01-24-2010, 02:04 PM
  #71
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I found it a bit over dramatic, but he does need to make some appearances to the public none the less. Jones is right about the arena support as well as fans lining up to pay for this crap. Even Pocklington had support for the team until he gutted it for no future hope and tried to openly move it. I would bet Katz would have support for a Chicago style re-build. Fans here are pretty educated. All they want is to be acknowledged that they matter and that the team is moving forward.

I don't think we need a LaForge style appology letter, just a press conference on what's happened, what went right and wrong and what the vision and goals are for the organization. Just a good old fashioned sit down Q and A. That will do it and ease most fans into what the team is doing.

Just my thoughts.

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01-24-2010, 02:05 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Real_Estate-Agent View Post
It is interesting how almost everyone is ignoring the gist of the column.......

"virtually every hockey savvy citizen knowing that the veteran guys with the big contracts ó $24.35 million to players on a defence which turns into turnstiles almost every night, $7 million to Shawn Horcoff with the worst plus-minus in the league and a captain in Ethan Moreau who appears to have abdicated ó need to get gone."

Followed by:

"Itís great to have an owner willing to spend to the cap. But what good is it when you spend stupid and leave no cap room to work with this year or even next year.

Are you willing to eat some big contracts and get creative financially to figure out a way, at the cost of millions, to cover mistakes your hockey people have made?"

Let's ignore that part - the idiocy of Kevin Lowe.........
That's why Jones is bang-on here.

He might be a whiner when it comes to Katz being recluse, but nothing in his piece is wrong (save for the fact that Horcoff's cap hit is $5.5M, which is what matters most).

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01-24-2010, 02:16 PM
  #73
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I found it a bit over dramatic, but he does need to make some appearances to the public none the less. Jones is right about the arena support as well as fans lining up to pay for this crap. Even Pocklington had support for the team until he gutted it for no future hope and tried to openly move it. I would bet Katz would have support for a Chicago style re-build. Fans here are pretty educated. All they want is to be acknowledged that they matter and that the team is moving forward.

I don't think we need a LaForge style appology letter, just a press conference on what's happened, what went right and wrong and what the vision and goals are for the organization. Just a good old fashioned sit down Q and A. That will do it and ease most fans into what the team is doing.

Just my thoughts.
Agree.

Some teams, LA and Vancouver among them, actually have their top hockey people sit down with season ticket holders and discuss the future with them in an open forum

It would be a breath of fresh air compared to the "surveys" that only want to know how big of a ticket increase the fans are prepared to absorb.

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01-24-2010, 02:23 PM
  #74
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I found it a bit over dramatic, but he does need to make some appearances to the public none the less. Jones is right about the arena support as well as fans lining up to pay for this crap. Even Pocklington had support for the team until he gutted it for no future hope and tried to openly move it. I would bet Katz would have support for a Chicago style re-build. Fans here are pretty educated. All they want is to be acknowledged that they matter and that the team is moving forward.

I don't think we need a LaForge style appology letter, just a press conference on what's happened, what went right and wrong and what the vision and goals are for the organization. Just a good old fashioned sit down Q and A. That will do it and ease most fans into what the team is doing.

Just my thoughts.
The coaches and the GM hold separate press conferences at the end of each year. My hope is we'll get something from them at that time.

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01-24-2010, 02:24 PM
  #75
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I don't think it will take 7 years either if done right but some of you comparisons are a bit specious.

Sure the Oilers have Hemsky but the Bolts already have Vinny, St. Louis, Stamkos and Hedman.
That's because Tampa Bay is coming out of two bottom-two seasons where we're half way through our first. Again, there's no argument against the lack of a Hedman or Stamkos level prospect in the system, that's an issue that's being resolved the only way it can (for us): By losing lots.

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Sure the Oilers have Potulny and I don't need to remind you what else the Hawks have.
The Hawks are at the end of this rebuild.

Hell if I know what the Oilers roster will look like even next year, but I whole-heartedly believe it's a matter of sorting out the top of the roster. I do have faith in the complimentary talent in the system (both at the NHL level and in the prospect pool).

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Then for some reason you want to compare Gagner to O'Reilly, Wouldn't Statsny be a more apt comparison since Gagner has been tagged as the first line centre in waiting?
You asked the question.

Truth be told, I could have easily used Cogliano or whoever against Ryan O'Reilly. It's not as though O'Reilly has impressive numbers or really, any numbers of any kind since the first 15 games of the season.

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Your Brule comparison seems like a decent one but he appears to have fallen into an elevator shaft in the last 20 games.
In and out of the line-up with injuries has nothing to do with that?

Actually, in his last 20 games he's gone: 5-6-11 E. He was 6-6-12 -1 in the previous 22 games.

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So tell me, how long do you think, given the assets in the system do you think it will take the Oilers to make the playoffs again?

And how many years before they contend for a cup?
I'm not psychic and neither are you.

I could attempt to project upside for players like Eberle, Gagner, Paajarvi-Svensson and Hall/Seguin/Fowler and match that up with current contenders. I could speculate on medium-end talent already on the team...

But it'd be pointless and complete speculative. All I'm saying is that there are good younger players on the roster who are less redundant than previous years and a couple top-end prospects outside of NA Pro to go with the line on a truly fantastic talent in the upcoming draft.

It's not an empty cupboard.

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