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01-24-2010, 04:53 PM
  #101
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Oilers management is ****ing retarded if they try to sign this guy, so pointless towards a rebuild.

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01-24-2010, 04:53 PM
  #102
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Is it good for the kids to be on a team that loses 10 straight games? Does it teach them competitiveness? Is it good to throw a group of kids with fragile confidence out against a better team each and every game? No.

Gagner has never played a meaningful game in his 3 years with the Oilers, and some are wondering why he hasnt stepped up to the next level. Maybe this is why. He doesnt know how to win in the NHL. He has never fought for a playoff spot (other than 07/08 where we were so far out till then). Maybe a FULL year of being in the playoff race would help the whole team, and teach them key lessons in winning.


They were in a playoff race for a full year last year, barring the last ten games, which they still had an outside shot. How did that work out? Did the young kids get better? I dont think so. If what you are doing isnt working, why would you continue to do it? The young prospects should play against weaker competition in Junior or the minors. They will gain much more confidence there than being pummeled nightly in the nhl with a team that has more holes than Gateway in the spring.

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01-24-2010, 04:54 PM
  #103
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I want a top line that is legit (Jagr-Hall/Seguin-Hemsky) very plausible as of right now.
I don't want our 1st round pick coming anywhere near the Oilers, for at least 1 if not 2 years.

There's zero need for it. AHL roster spot at the most.

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01-24-2010, 04:55 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
They were in a playoff race for a full year last year, barring the last ten games, which they still had an outside shot. How did that work out? Did the young kids get better? I dont think so. If what you are doing isnt working, why would you continue to do it? The young prospects should play against weaker competition in Junior or the minors. They will gain much more confidence there than being pummeled nightly in the nhl with a team that has more holes than Gateway in the spring.
Actually, I think the kids did get a lot better.

What set them back again was all the vets returning to restore their order.

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01-24-2010, 04:58 PM
  #105
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Actually, I think the kids did get a lot better.

What set them back again was all the vets returning to restore their order.
What kids got better? Maybe Gagner a little. Outside of that, there is no one really. Brule wasnt on the team last year so I dont really know who you are referring to. Its moves like these that postone a rebuild. By doing this they are actually making the team worse going forward.

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01-24-2010, 05:02 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
What kids got better? Maybe Gagner a little. Outside of that, there is no one really. Brule wasnt on the team last year so I dont really know who you are referring to. Its moves like these that postone a rebuild. By doing this they are actually making the team worse going forward.
Gagner-Cogliano-Nilsson all showed they have skills to make it in the NHL. (Maybe not all on the same line, but anyway).

I think the org has to turn to Gagner, Penner, Hemsky and Smid, give them the leadership roles, and say to them... where do you want to take this team?

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01-24-2010, 05:05 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Giant Moo View Post
I don't want our 1st round pick coming anywhere near the Oilers, for at least 1 if not 2 years.

There's zero need for it. AHL roster spot at the most.
If Hall is the first pick, he will be on the Oilers roster next year GUARANTEED, how many #1 picks don't make an NHL roster right away, very few.

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01-24-2010, 05:07 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
[/B]

They were in a playoff race for a full year last year, barring the last ten games, which they still had an outside shot. How did that work out? Did the young kids get better? I dont think so. If what you are doing isnt working, why would you continue to do it? The young prospects should play against weaker competition in Junior or the minors. They will gain much more confidence there than being pummeled nightly in the nhl with a team that has more holes than Gateway in the spring.
Maybe it would have worked out well, if not for losing our best foward and best goalie. Theres no denying that this team wouldn't be in the lottery if not for those injuries, they would be battling for a playoff spot, and no one knows how that would turn out in the end.

Name me 3 teams in the west that would still remain in the playoff race if their best goalie and best forward got injured for the whole year. I can think of San Jose, and Chicago.

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01-24-2010, 05:09 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Giant Moo View Post
I don't want our 1st round pick coming anywhere near the Oilers, for at least 1 if not 2 years.

There's zero need for it. AHL roster spot at the most.
I think there is zero chance that any of the top three picks do not play in the NHL next year on whoever picks them including the Oilers. Its also not as bad as your making it out to be. Were having a very bad year lets not turn it into it would hurt there development to play on the Oilers as that's just a rather huge pile of BS.

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01-24-2010, 05:12 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by CupofOil View Post
If Hall is the first pick, he will be on the Oilers roster next year GUARANTEED, how many #1 picks don't make an NHL roster right away, very few.
You're probably right, but I am not sure this would be best for a guy like Hall. He would have tons of pressure to be the immediate savior. I'd be happy if they gave him one more year to mature physically. But more importantly, I think that staggering the kids would be best for the Oilers.

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01-24-2010, 05:14 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by tv14 View Post
Maybe it would have worked out well, if not for losing our best foward and best goalie. Theres no denying that this team wouldn't be in the lottery if not for those injuries, they would be battling for a playoff spot, and no one knows how that would turn out in the end.

Name me 3 teams in the west that would still remain in the playoff race if their best goalie and best forward got injured for the whole year. I can think of San Jose, and Chicago.
I dont disagree with you on this at all. That being said, do you know for sure if we are going to have Khabibulin in the lineup next year? If not then are we going with JDD and DD again? Will Jagr's five million cap hit (If you think he is coming here for less than that you are fooling yourself) make it near impossible for us to get another goaltender should the need arise?

Dont forget that we have a large amount of rfa players who will be looking for increases. Where does that come from? If you think we can just dump some of our vets, all of who (except Pisani) have years remaining at inflated prices, to make room then I believe you may be disappointed.

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01-24-2010, 05:19 PM
  #112
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I don't think I'd have a problem with Jags coming over.

However, if management thinks it to be a be-all, end-all solution, I'll be pissed and finally 100% assured as to their utter stupidity and illegitimacy as management of a professional hockey team.

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01-24-2010, 05:22 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
You're probably right, but I am not sure this would be best for a guy like Hall. He would have tons of pressure to be the immediate savior. I'd be happy if they gave him one more year to mature physically. But more importantly, I think that staggering the kids would be best for the Oilers.
Yup, exactly that. Also, this team's a headcase right now, and they'll probably need all of next year just to forget this year. Isolate our pick for their own mental sanity.

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01-24-2010, 05:24 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
You're probably right, but I am not sure this would be best for a guy like Hall. He would have tons of pressure to be the immediate savior. I'd be happy if they gave him one more year to mature physically. But more importantly, I think that staggering the kids would be best for the Oilers.
I agree but whether he comes up next year or the year after, there will be a ton of pressure on him for the rest of his Oiler career so if he shows that he belongs in preseason, then he will be up here for sure.
Also, Oilers management have never been ones to be patient with anything so i'm sure that they would put a lot of pressure on the coaching staff to include him on the opening day roster no matter what.

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01-24-2010, 05:26 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by sheldonnbbaker View Post
I don't think I'd have a problem with Jags coming over.

However, if management thinks it to be a be-all, end-all solution, I'll be pissed and finally 100% assured as to their utter stupidity and illegitimacy as management of a professional hockey team.
Jagr will be the major move for them if they go that route, it'll cost them $5-6 mil for 1-2 years so there won't be much wiggle room to do much else hence it being a stupid and short sighted move.

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01-24-2010, 05:33 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by CupofOil View Post
Jagr will be the major move for them if they go that route, it'll cost them $5-6 mil for 1-2 years so there won't be much wiggle room to do much else hence it being a stupid and short sighted move.
This. And if you are rebuilding and likely not challenging, then why would you spend to the cap? So your young RFAs have no cap space? Steal more ice time from your developing players like Cogliano so they end up on the 4th line whithering away (ala Comrie signing)?

Make as much cap room as you can in a rebuild so you can afford new contracts for your emerging stars, re-sign top performers (Hemsky, Penner), trade for top players with big contracts from other teams entering rebuild, or have room to get the UFAs you need to fill all the roles on the roster.

Plus if Jagr is around and the team builds it's play/systems around Jagr and then he's gone after 2 years, suddenly you have a big hole in the foundation of your team. Jagr makes zero sense for this team.

For LA or Chicago who are on the verge it would make sense to add that one superstar to put them over the top.

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01-24-2010, 05:39 PM
  #117
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I dont disagree with you on this at all. That being said, do you know for sure if we are going to have Khabibulin in the lineup next year? If not then are we going with JDD and DD again? Will Jagr's five million cap hit (If you think he is coming here for less than that you are fooling yourself) make it near impossible for us to get another goaltender should the need arise?

Dont forget that we have a large amount of rfa players who will be looking for increases. Where does that come from? If you think we can just dump some of our vets, all of who (except Pisani) have years remaining at inflated prices, to make room then I believe you may be disappointed.
Obviously Khabibulin plays a huge part in what will happen next year, but if hes healthy I honestly dont see how this team cant compete, or for that matter even make the playoffs, which would be a huge step forward.

Jagr (5) - Brule (?) - Hemsky (4.1)
Penner (4.25) - Gagner (?) - Eberle (1.2?)
Jacques (?) - Horcoff (5.5) - Pisani (?)
Hall (2.0?) - Potulny (?) - O'Sullivan (2.925)

Stortini (0.7)
Poulliot (?)

Visnovsky (5.6) - Smid (1.3)
Grebeshkov (?) - Staios (2.7)
Chorney (0.75) - Gilbert (4)

Strudwick (0.7)

Khabibuliun (3.75)
Dubnyk (?)

Total 44.475

If the cap stays the same (57.8?) that gives us over 13 million to sign the free agents. Which could be doable. Gagner (3), Brule (1.5), Potulny (1), Jacques (0.8), Pisani (1), Poulliot (1), Grebeshkov (3.75), Dubnyk (0.9), total of 12.95.

This is assuming we bury Moreau (or trade for picks if we can), trade Souray and Cogs (maybe even get some roster players), and cant deal Staios. With the West being so tight from 3-12, I dont see why this team cant compete for any of those spots (with a healthy Khabibulin).

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01-24-2010, 05:43 PM
  #118
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Again, Jagr and Hemsky play the same position unless you really want one of them to play the offwing. (See Cole for reference as to how that works out)

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01-24-2010, 05:44 PM
  #119
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There's nothing necessarily wrong with signing Jagr. It's not like anyone would really expect more than 40-50 points out of him, and that's not enough to really ruin our drafting position (i.e. improve our record by any tangible amount). DSF was just talking about Wolski having mentors -- can you think of a better one available than Jagr? I think he'd be excellent in that respect.

But it all depends on the cap hit. If he were to sign <=$2M, I don't think anyone would complain. I would be ecstatic. But if he wants $5M like some people are saying, that leaves me with a really bad taste in my mouth.

So I'll defer until the signing to voice my outrage.
If the Oilers are able to make enough cap space to pay him $5 million on a one year deal, I'm OK with that. The key is term. It's gotta be one and done. If he clicks with Hemsky (which I think he would, then he might make a pretty big difference right away). If he plays pretty well but doesn't make the team a contender for playoffs by February, he's a pretty nice deadline asset. I say go for it, and if Katz is willing to put the money down, more power to him. Just don't do it over years. That would suck....

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01-24-2010, 05:47 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by tv14 View Post
Obviously Khabibulin plays a huge part in what will happen next year, but if hes healthy I honestly dont see how this team cant compete, or for that matter even make the playoffs, which would be a huge step forward.

Jagr (5) - Brule (?) - Hemsky (4.1)
Penner (4.25) - Gagner (?) - Eberle (1.2?)
Jacques (?) - Horcoff (5.5) - Pisani (?)
Hall (2.0?) - Potulny (?) - O'Sullivan (2.925)

Stortini (0.7)
Poulliot (?)

Visnovsky (5.6) - Smid (1.3)
Grebeshkov (?) - Staios (2.7)
Chorney (0.75) - Gilbert (4)

Strudwick (0.7)

Khabibuliun (3.75)
Dubnyk (?)

Total 44.475

If the cap stays the same (57.8?) that gives us over 13 million to sign the free agents. Which could be doable. Gagner (3), Brule (1.5), Potulny (1), Jacques (0.8), Pisani (1), Poulliot (1), Grebeshkov (3.75), Dubnyk (0.9), total of 12.95.

This is assuming we bury Moreau (or trade for picks if we can), trade Souray and Cogs (maybe even get some roster players), and cant deal Staios. With the West being so tight from 3-12, I dont see why this team cant compete for any of those spots (with a healthy Khabibulin).
You need to double Hall's number. Go and look what the top picks got last year. Considerably more than 2mill. Eberle will probably command more than you are giving him as might Gagner, Jacques, and some of the other rfa players you listed.

You are also assuming that we are getting rid of Moreau and Souray with no salary coming back. That is a recipe for over the cap stew. It would not be prudent to sign Jagr. He doesnt fit the direction of our team, and he would take up too much cap space. I doubt that we would be what he has in mind either if he does want to come back to North America.

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01-24-2010, 05:48 PM
  #121
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Again, Jagr and Hemsky play the same position unless you really want one of them to play the offwing. (See Cole for reference as to how that works out)
Cole was not that great on either wing here FYI. Bad comp.

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01-24-2010, 05:48 PM
  #122
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Bringing Jagr in works fine with the rebuild, provided a certain set of conditions are met:

1)He's only here for one year, two max, with the club reserving the right to give him the Jason Smith treatment after one season.
2) At least two bigger contracts are moved out (Moreau, Staios, Souray).
3) The dollars are reasonable ($4M or less)

If all these are met, it's a low-risk signing. Otherwise, probably doesn't fit.

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01-24-2010, 05:50 PM
  #123
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Again, Jagr and Hemsky play the same position unless you really want one of them to play the offwing. (See Cole for reference as to how that works out)
They did play on the same line in the World Championships. I cant remember who played center. I think it was Hemsky.

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01-24-2010, 05:52 PM
  #124
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Jagr doesn't make the Oilers a playoff team. Not even close.
Two comments. First, an NHL team has an obligation to the fans that buy season tickets for next year to be as good as possible in the year the fan has bought his or her tickets for. That's why our theories about long term plans and patience are much harder to do in practice.

Second, if the Oilers aren't close to the playoffs by trade deadline, Jagr is a pretty nice asset (at any salary) so long as he's a UFA at the end of the year.

Clearly, there's a lot of people that think that it is abominable that the Oilers are even thinking about going after a big name again. I disagree in this case. It all depends on term. Big short term money on a big name is not a bad plan at all IMO. (More than a year, all bets are off)...

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01-24-2010, 05:56 PM
  #125
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I agree but whether he comes up next year or the year after, there will be a ton of pressure on him for the rest of his Oiler career so if he shows that he belongs in preseason, then he will be up here for sure.
Also, Oilers management have never been ones to be patient with anything so i'm sure that they would put a lot of pressure on the coaching staff to include him on the opening day roster no matter what.
I have no doubt that if the Oilers draft Hall there will be great pressure to play him. But I would like to see them resist that if possible, and a guy like Jagr might be enough of a distraction to allow them to do that. But if the roster is pretty much as it is right now the cry for Hall would be extremely loud.

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