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Free Agent Frenzy Trade rumors, transactions, and free agent talk. Rumors must contain the word RUMOR in post title. Proposals must contain the word PROPOSAL in post title.

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Old
01-25-2010, 09:32 PM
  #51
SpezDispenser
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreaBargnani View Post
I remember reading something else but this is one that I could find.

http://www.hockeysfuture.com/article...p_january2010/

Thereís some work to do on his overall game, but I like what Iíve seen so far.
That's pretty far from 'very mistake prone'.

Speaking of player development, every time I see Patrick Wiercioch (OTT), I canít believe how quickly his offensive game has come around. He moves the puck crisply and with confidence and he shows very good offensive instincts. Thereís some work to do on his overall game, but I like what Iíve seen so far.

This is the entire paragraph...there's nothing negative about that. At all.

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01-25-2010, 09:32 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyke View Post
From the article you linked:


Way to be selective in your quoting. That HARDLY suggests he's mistake prone, and in fact suggests he's ahead of the curve.
I gave you the frickin' article. Selective? All you have to do is open it up and read it. There's no conversation about the guys offensive game. He's a tremendous talent. That wasn't what I was talking about.

I couldn't find the original source about his defensive game so I just gave that article as an example.

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01-25-2010, 09:34 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Rpro View Post
Isn't Ottawa loaded with defensive prospects, and low on offensive forwards? This would be the kind of deal that Murray would jump at.

No way would the Oilers do this though.
ehh, you could say so.

We don't have a true blue chip prospects, but we do have some players that should be top 6'ers in time.

Jakob Silfverberg and Andre Petersson are two that I really like.

We have one of the best swedish scouts in the game, and he did some nice work with these picks.

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Old
01-25-2010, 09:35 PM
  #54
Yelnats Puc
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreaBargnani View Post
I remember reading something else but this is one that I could find.

http://www.hockeysfuture.com/article...p_january2010/

[I]There’s some work to do on his overall game, but I like what I’ve seen so far.
19 year old defenseman has work to do on his overall game? Holy crap! This is a new and foreign concept!

That is a far cry from mistake prone.

But I will happily drop it now, knowing your argument completely lacks any support, but you will continue to argue it anyways.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyke View Post
So what if they've had a good working relationship? If Burke holds the #7 pick and thinks Murray wants Cowen, he might not move.

A lot of people feel Burke was being reactive.
Those people are likely morons.

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01-25-2010, 09:37 PM
  #55
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Just another point on the Kadri v. Cowen thing:
-Consensus at the Draft was Dallas would be taking a forward, and likely Scott Glennie. This is who they picked.

Let's consider the possibilities:
1) If Murray wants Kadri: He has nothing to lose in suggesting that's who he wants, unless the Leafs also want Kadri. In which case, they won't trade him the pick.

2) If Murray wants Cowen: Same thing.

I don't believe for a moment Murray wanted to draft Kadri, because his comments afterward indicated he was hoping to get OEL. That to me tells me his focus was on a defenseman.

-=-=-

EDIT:
As to people being morons, I'm a law student and did an undergraduate degree in Human Resources Management. I've done Collective Bargaining, Negotiations and Litigation through my course work and actual work. If I was ever faced with a situation in which it was a zero sum game (which the NHL Entry Draft, in this context, was); I would not reveal who I actually was interested in. It's not to my advantage to do so.

The only exception to this is if I'm MAKING the trade, and in which case I don't want to damage the on-going relationship.

I.E.: If I want Cowen and I tell the Leafs I want Kadri, and I get the pick and I draft Cowen, that will hurt my relationship.

HOWEVER, if I want Cowen and the Leafs tell me they want Kadri, and I tell them "yes" when they ask me who I like, I lose nothing while deflecting attention from who I really like.

The latter makes a lot of sense.

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01-25-2010, 09:37 PM
  #56
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How about we talk about something besides prospects?

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01-25-2010, 09:39 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rpro View Post
Isn't Ottawa loaded with defensive prospects, and low on offensive forwards? This would be the kind of deal that Murray would jump at.

No way would the Oilers do this though.
They wouldn't be loaded with defensive prospects if they traded Cowen and Wiercioch. That trade wouldn't do any good, considering the Oilers prospects aren't any better than Cowen and Wiercioch.

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01-25-2010, 09:40 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Mach 9 View Post
How about we talk about something besides prospects?
Likely because it's trolling - the thread is about a proposal between the two teams involving nothing but prospects.

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01-25-2010, 09:42 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Seachd View Post
Likely because it's trolling - the thread is about a proposal between the two teams involving nothing but prospects.
This too.

I do sort of feel like the discussion of what Ottawa wanted to do at the 2009 NHL Entry Draft is relevant though.

If there's to be a deal for MPS or Eberle at the expense of Cowen, it would only make sense if Ottawa actually DID want to acquire a forward but was unable to do so.

The fact they may not have seems really on-point.

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01-25-2010, 09:42 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyke View Post
I don't believe for a moment Murray wanted to draft Kadri, because his comments afterward indicated he was hoping to get OEL. That to me tells me his focus was on a defenseman.
So because he wanted OEL, he's only looking to draft defenseman?

Or, maybe he thought OEL was the best player who would likely be available, so he wanted to draft him. Then, after OEL was gone, he went to the next on his list, which was Kadri. After Kadri was picked, Murray went with Cowen.

I really hope Murray didn't just eliminate prospects based on which position they played, that would be incredibly stupid.

RE: Your edit.

The moron comment was aimed at people who thought Burke took Kadri because Murray wanted him.

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01-25-2010, 09:46 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Yelnats Puc View Post
So because he wanted OEL, he's only looking to draft defenseman?

Or, maybe he thought OEL was the best player who would likely be available, so he wanted to draft him. Then, after OEL was gone, he went to the next on his list, which was Kadri. After Kadri was picked, Murray went with Cowen.

I really hope Murray didn't just eliminate prospects based on which position they played, that would be incredibly stupid.
Murray did say before the draft that he would pick a forward if a a good one was available. Everyone and their mama knew what the top 6 would be, so the only good enough one left for Murray was Kadri. He tried to move up to grab him, but was turned down. So he just drafted Cowen instead.

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01-25-2010, 09:47 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Yelnats Puc View Post
So because he wanted OEL, he's only looking to draft defenseman?

Or, maybe he thought OEL was the best player who would likely be available, so he wanted to draft him. Then, after OEL was gone, he went to the next on his list, which was Kadri. After Kadri was picked, Murray went with Cowen.

I really hope Murray didn't just eliminate prospects based on which position they played, that would be incredibly stupid.
Hm, let me try to explain this:

When it comes to NHL drafting, there are two main and competing theories.
1) You draft the best player available, regardless of the position. The assumption underlying this is that you can always trade the BPA, plus it gives you depth.
2) You draft the best player to fill a need, given a particular weakness. The assumption underlying this is that you need to build from within, and it allows you to have a well rounded organization.

With relatively limited exceptions, GMs falling under approach #2 can always trade their draft pick for players they DO need if they feel that there isn't a BPA at that position, at that spot; so it's not entirely like #2 is inherently worse than #1.

I tend to believe most teams will draft using strategy #2 when it comes to first round picks, because the margins are so small between players in the 10-20 range. However, when it comes to 2nd, 3rd, 4th round picks, I think you pick the best guy available.

In the case of OEL v. Cowen, I do think that it is reflective of the type of player Murray was attempting to acquire. If you look at his subsequent picks, he chose Silverburg and Lehner in Round 2, a F and G. Given he has one of the top swedish scouts in the game working for him, I don't believe this was an accident.

I also note he traded up to acquire a defenseman in 2008. I admittedly could be wrong.

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Old
01-25-2010, 09:48 PM
  #63
Yelnats Puc
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jano View Post
Murray did say before the draft that he would pick a forward if a a good one was available. Everyone and their mama knew what the top 6 would be, so the only good enough one left for Murray was Kadri. He tried to move up to grab him, but was turned down. So he just drafted Cowen instead.
Well, in that case, it's obvious he was lying to get Burke to draft Kadri.

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01-25-2010, 09:50 PM
  #64
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Notice how us Ottawa fans are talking to ourselves now...

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01-25-2010, 09:51 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jano View Post
Murray did say before the draft that he would pick a forward if a a good one was available. Everyone and their mama knew what the top 6 would be, so the only good enough one left for Murray was Kadri. He tried to move up to grab him, but was turned down. So he just drafted Cowen instead.
Again though, I don't think this is so simple.

1) The fact that he said he wanted a forward doesn't mean he actually did, there's a lot of smoke and mirrors in these kinds of things.

2) We know from his actions afterwards he DID want OEL, which is who a lot of pundits had Ottawa picking.

3) At the NHL Entry Draft, everybody knew that Glennie was going to Dallas once we got out of the top 6; though they clearly didn't think Kadri was better which is odd.

4) I think the Sens GM expected Cowen to go in the top 5 and not be available, hence the focus on OEL. I mean, if you look at it, the Sens were nearly 100% sure that one of Kulikov, OEL or Cowen would be available (2 in fact were).

5) I truly do believe that GM BM was worried that Burke was going to pick Cowen. I don't think Burke picked Kadri because BM wanted him; but I do think I wouldn't show my cards if I was in BM's position. There's nothing to gain.

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Old
01-25-2010, 09:52 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyke View Post
Hm, let me try to explain this:

When it comes to NHL drafting, there are two main and competing theories.
1) You draft the best player available, regardless of the position. The assumption underlying this is that you can always trade the BPA, plus it gives you depth.
2) You draft the best player to fill a need, given a particular weakness. The assumption underlying this is that you need to build from within, and it allows you to have a well rounded organization.

With relatively limited exceptions, GMs falling under approach #2 can always trade their draft pick for players they DO need if they feel that there isn't a BPA at that position, at that spot; so it's not entirely like #2 is inherently worse than #1.

I tend to believe most teams will draft using strategy #2 when it comes to first round picks, because the margins are so small between players in the 10-20 range. However, when it comes to 2nd, 3rd, 4th round picks, I think you pick the best guy available.
If we were drafting to fill a need, we would have picked a forward, seeing as we still completely lack top forward prospects.

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01-25-2010, 09:52 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Mach 9 View Post
Notice how us Ottawa fans are talking to ourselves now...
Our superior arguments could not be thwarted. Mission accomplished.

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Old
01-25-2010, 09:55 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Yelnats Puc View Post
If we were drafting to fill a need, we would have picked a forward, seeing as we still completely lack top forward prospects.
Well that depends if you really believe that was what we needed.

Defense wins championships. I've believed this for a long time and still do. Look back at the championship teams for the past 15 years, they've all had a #1 defenseman.

I don't care if it's Rob Blake (Bourque/Foote weren't bad either ), Niedermeyer, Boyle, Zubov, Lidstrom, Gonchar, whoever...

You build from the net out. That's how to win. I'd much rather draft an elite defenseman over an elite forward. More to the point, we have a #1 center and, at least at the NHL entry draft, had a #1 LW. Michalek isn't bad either.

The team however lacks a true #1 d-man. To me that's a much bigger hole.

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Old
01-25-2010, 09:56 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Mach 9 View Post
Notice how us Ottawa fans are talking to ourselves now...
Well I sort of got tired of the "MPS can finish, Eberle is too small" "Bryan Murray is a genius" "Andre Pettersson is better than MPS".

For the record, it's bad etiquette to call someone on no longer participating in a thread. JMO but thats a wuss move.

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01-25-2010, 09:57 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by AndreaBargnani View Post
Well I sort of got tired of the "MPS can finish, Eberle is too small" "Bryan Murray is a genius" "Andre Pettersson is better than MPS".

For the record, it's bad etiquette to call someone on no longer participating in a thread. JMO but thats a wuss move.
I honestly didn't see it, but where did someone say Petersson is better?

Petersson is a better shooter, but definitely not a better playmaker

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01-25-2010, 10:00 PM
  #71
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k guys, we like our prospects, you like yours.

we get it.

Absolutely pointless discussion, nobody has the right answer. Let's meet back here in 5 years.

Annnnnnndddd Break!

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Old
01-25-2010, 10:01 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by AndreaBargnani View Post
Well I sort of got tired of the "MPS can finish, Eberle is too small" "Bryan Murray is a genius" "Andre Pettersson is better than MPS".

For the record, it's bad etiquette to call someone on no longer participating in a thread. JMO but thats a wuss move.
This, everything we say you respond with the exact same answer in different words.

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01-25-2010, 10:01 PM
  #73
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Well that depends if you really believe that was what we needed.

Defense wins championships. I've believed this for a long time and still do. Look back at the championship teams for the past 15 years, they've all had a #1 defenseman.

I don't care if it's Rob Blake (Bourque/Foote weren't bad either ), Niedermeyer, Boyle, Zubov, Lidstrom, Gonchar, whoever...

You build from the net out. That's how to win. I'd much rather draft an elite defenseman over an elite forward. More to the point, we have a #1 center and, at least at the NHL entry draft, had a #1 LW. Michalek isn't bad either.

The team however lacks a true #1 d-man. To me that's a much bigger hole.
This is true, but at the time we had just drafted Karlsson and Wiercioch the year before, and they were both looking fantastic. Murray already knew that Heatley was on the way out, and he also knew that Alfredsson won't be around much longer. That would create two big holes on offence, and the team had lacked secondary scoring for many years based on the lack of young, cheap forward talent.

I'll be happy to agree to disagree at this point. I'm just quite content to hear you didn't actually think Burke drafted Kadri because of Murray.

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Old
01-25-2010, 10:02 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by AndreaBargnani View Post
And I think Ottawa fans shrug this off too easily. The guy was so bad he was benched in favor of a FORWARD.
A bad tournament tells nothing about a players potential. Potential is not his current play, if it were players potentials would drastically change form week to week.

Honestly I don't see Eberle being much more than a 2nd liner.

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Old
01-25-2010, 10:07 PM
  #75
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Before anyone else plays the WJC card, let it b known that Andre Petersson led team Sweden in points.

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