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Standards we need to set for the value of our players

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01-25-2010, 10:22 PM
  #1
thadd
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Standards we need to set for the value of our players

I think there are some things that we all need to agree on:

1: If we trade Penner or Lubo, we're going to get more in return than something like Boston's first, Ryder and Colborne.

2: Adding players like Moreau, Nilson, Staios or O'Sullivan into a proposal is only going to lessen the value of our return because they've got bad contracts.

3: It's very unlikely that Gagner is going to be traded before the end of the end of the season. He's far and away our best center and losing him before the end of the season without getting a #1 center in return(which is beyond unlikely) would likely enable us to set franchise and league records for most consecutive loses.

4: Penner and Lubo are our two best offensive players and it's not worth trading them unless an uber prospect, a great player with a great contract or a top 3 pick is coming our way.

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01-25-2010, 10:24 PM
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Number 1 and Number 4 are identical imo.

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01-25-2010, 10:40 PM
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Who made you the judge?

How about we agree that the value is whatever we can get for them when they get traded. That is really what matters not what you think or I think or DSF thinks or anybody thinks. But until then have fun enjoy the proposal making and make your arguments but realize you could be very wrong as well. In the same post that you whine about other posters you feel the need to downgrade some players. Patio has been better of late and Nilsson as well they have value. I well not comment on the other two as I am pissed with them but it would not surprise me if they atleast get us a couple draft picks or a prospect.

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01-25-2010, 10:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by surshot View Post
Who made you the judge?

How about we agree that the value is whatever we can get for them when they get traded. That is really what matters not what you think or I think or DSF thinks or anybody thinks. But until then have fun enjoy the proposal making and make your arguments but realize you could be very wrong as well. In the same post that you whine about other posters you feel the need to downgrade some players. Patio has been better of late and Nilsson as well they have value. I well not comment on the other two as I am pissed with them but it would not surprise me if they atleast get us a couple draft picks or a prospect.
Well it sounds like we're kinda in fire sale now and I see us overvaluing picks which will be 20th-30th overall.

I see us undervaluing Penner. A lot of us were disappointed with what he did last year and the year before. To give him away at a price which is worth less than what we paid for him is a pretty crazy idea in my mind.

I see us undervaluing Lubo. He's put up great numbers for a long time and has been a solid defenseman for quite a while now. It's not like he had a flash in the pan season like Gilbert did.

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01-25-2010, 10:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thadd View Post
I think there are some things that we all need to agree on:

1: If we trade Penner or Lubo, we're going to get more in return than something like Boston's first, Ryder and Colborne.

2: Adding players like Moreau, Nilson, Staios or O'Sullivan into a proposal is only going to lessen the value of our return because they've got bad contracts.

3: It's very unlikely that Gagner is going to be traded before the end of the end of the season. He's far and away our best center and losing him before the end of the season without getting a #1 center in return(which is beyond unlikely) would likely enable us to set franchise and league records for most consecutive loses.

4: Penner and Lubo are our two best offensive players and it's not worth trading them unless an uber prospect, a great player with a great contract or a top 3 pick is coming our way.
It's Dustin Penner and Lubomir Visnovsky, not freakin' Ilya Kovalchuk and Dan Boyle

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01-25-2010, 10:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hemsky_83 View Post
It's Dustin Penner and Lubomir Visnovsky, not freakin' Ilya Kovalchuk and Dan Boyle
You say that as if it's an amazing return.

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01-25-2010, 11:01 PM
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I think Patrick O'Sullivan would be a great fit for Boston just by virtue of his name.

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01-25-2010, 11:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Seachd View Post
You say that as if it's an amazing return.
A mid-round 1st, a serviceable forward in Michael Ryder, and a promising big prospect in Joe Colbourne?

You think that's appropriate for a Dustin Penner? What planet are you on. That's essentially 2 1sts and Michael Ryder.

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01-25-2010, 11:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seachd View Post
You say that as if it's an amazing return.
I would be thrilled if we could trade either for that package.

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01-25-2010, 11:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hemsky_83 View Post
A mid-round 1st, a serviceable forward in Michael Ryder, and a promising big prospect in Joe Colbourne?

You think that's appropriate for a Dustin Penner? What planet are you on. That's essentially 2 1sts and Michael Ryder.
Ryder's a salary dump, pure and simple.

How would you feel in a few years if Ryder's gone, Joe Colborne makes Geoff Paukovich look like Ovechkin in the minors, and the 1st seems pretty average?

Why don't you tell me what you think a good return for Penner would be?

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01-25-2010, 11:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hemsky_83 View Post
A mid-round 1st, a serviceable forward in Michael Ryder, and a promising big prospect in Joe Colbourne?

You think that's appropriate for a Dustin Penner? What planet are you on. That's essentially 2 1sts and Michael Ryder.
And Ryder is heavily overpaid IMO. He's so streaky and doesn't seem to be having a good year. He'll be UFA after next year and it's nice to have the space but Colbourne hasn't played a single game in the NHL. We've got no reason to believe that he's going to turn into a useful player.

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01-25-2010, 11:17 PM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seachd View Post
Ryder's a salary dump, pure and simple.

How would you feel in a few years if Ryder's gone, Joe Colborne makes Geoff Paukovich look like Ovechkin in the minors, and the 1st seems pretty average?

Why don't you tell me what you think a good return for Penner would be?
So, we get 1 year of Ryder at 4.0 Million (tradeable at next years deadline), the #30 overall prospect on Hockeysfuture (who is 6'5) and a first round pick?

It would go along way to our rebuild.

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01-25-2010, 11:21 PM
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Relax the Oilers are not going to trade everybody just because some fans put them in a proposal on HFoil. Nor should they. Not naming names but it should be obvious who is somewhat on the chopping block. OK I well name names but only the ones that i feel are safe.

Hemsky-Penner-Gagner-Visnovsky-Smid-Horcoff(yes he is safe)-Gilbert-Brule-Cogliano(just have this feeling there not ready to give him up) and lastly our high end prospects our safe. Everything else can go if the price right.

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01-25-2010, 11:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valic View Post
So, we get 1 year of Ryder at 4.0 Million (tradeable at next years deadline), the #30 overall prospect on Hockeysfuture (who is 6'5) and a first round pick?

It would go along way to our rebuild.
But we've got Penner locked up for a few more years. He's our best goal scorer right now. There's nothing to really hate about his cap hit. It's not like Souray, who isn't producing for the amount of money he's making.

Is this guy going to score 30 goals a year? No, he's a playmaker. He admits it himself. He's a pass first player and despite his giant size he even admits that he doesn't like driving to net to score goals.

Gagner, Hemsky and MPS are all great passers. We need goal scorers and that's exactly what Penner is. What's the point?

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01-25-2010, 11:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by surshot View Post
Relax the Oilers are not going to trade everybody just because some fans put them in a proposal on HFoil. Nor should they. Not naming names but it should be obvious who is somewhat on the chopping block. OK I well name names but only the ones that i feel are safe.

Hemsky-Penner-Gagner-Visnovsky-Smid-Horcoff(yes he is safe)-Gilbert-Brule-Cogliano(just have this feeling there not ready to give him up) and lastly our high end prospects our safe. Everything else can go if the price right.
The good thing about Cogs is that he's very good defensively and his cap hit is going to stay pretty small due to the fact that he hasn't been able to score much.

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01-25-2010, 11:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Seachd View Post
You say that as if it's an amazing return.
No kidding. No15-30 overall pick in a shallow draft, Joffrey Lupul-type one-dimensional forward who's overpaid by a couple of millions and a boom-bust prospect, who is a few years away either way.

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01-25-2010, 11:31 PM
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Preach like it was written son.

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01-25-2010, 11:32 PM
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No kidding. No15-30 overall pick in a shallow draft, Joffrey Lupul-type one-dimensional forward who's overpaid by a couple of millions and a boom-bust prospect, who is a few years away either way.
I think we'd be lucky to get a 16th-30th overall pick and have them turn out as good as Lupul. He's shown that he can produce consistently in the right environment.

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01-25-2010, 11:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by surshot View Post
Relax the Oilers are not going to trade everybody just because some fans put them in a proposal on HFoil. Nor should they. Not naming names but it should be obvious who is somewhat on the chopping block. OK I well name names but only the ones that i feel are safe.

Hemsky-Penner-Gagner-Visnovsky-Smid-Horcoff(yes he is safe)-Gilbert-Brule-Cogliano(just have this feeling there not ready to give him up) and lastly our high end prospects our safe. Everything else can go if the price right.
I agree for the most part. I would add to your list Grebeshkov and remove Cogliano. I think they will keep Grebeshkov (young puck-moving d-man with untapped offensive potential) and try to move Souray and Staios. Then perhaps shop for a Volchenkov type d-man in free agency or via trade.

Visnovsky-Smid
Gilbert-X
Grebeshkov-X

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01-25-2010, 11:34 PM
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But we've got Penner locked up for a few more years. He's our best goal scorer right now. There's nothing to really hate about his cap hit. It's not like Souray, who isn't producing for the amount of money he's making.

Is this guy going to score 30 goals a year? No, he's a playmaker. He admits it himself. He's a pass first player and despite his giant size he even admits that he doesn't like driving to net to score goals.

Gagner, Hemsky and MPS are all great passers. We need goal scorers and that's exactly what Penner is. What's the point?
Do you honestly expect us to make any noise playoff wise in the next couple years? A first + Joe Colbourn + someone to fill the gap for a year, Plus likely garner at least a 2nd rounder at the deadline next year.

It's a smart Hockey move.

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01-25-2010, 11:38 PM
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Originally Posted by thadd View Post
I think we'd be lucky to get a 16th-30th overall pick and have them turn out as good as Lupul. He's shown that he can produce consistently in the right environment.
I was referring to Ryder. I just don't see how he helps the Oilers now or in the future.
He's not near the player Penner is at the same salary cap hit.
Colbourne is a nice prospect, but for Visnovsky? We are talking a top 10-15 offensive d-man in in his prime.

Justrecently Visnovsky brought in Greene and Stoll--both young NHLers--potential top 4-man and potential No.2 center.
I would expect a similar return this time around.

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Old
01-25-2010, 11:41 PM
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I have no faith in Tambi whatsoever. Instead of trying to fix the PK, he goes chasing rainbows (Heatley). To do that he wanted to trade Penner, Smid and Cogliano. Then he left them hanging and the three players didn't know if they'll be in Edmonton or Ottawa.

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01-25-2010, 11:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiger_80 View Post
I agree for the most part. I would add to your list Grebeshkov and remove Cogliano. I think they will keep Grebeshkov (young puck-moving d-man with untapped offensive potential) and try to move Souray and Staios. Then perhaps shop for a Volchenkov type d-man in free agency or via trade.

Visnovsky-Smid
Gilbert-X
Grebeshkov-X
The problem with grebs is he's making 3.1 mill which means that a qualifying offer(He's rfa) entitles him to a raise. I don't think he's worth a raise.

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01-25-2010, 11:46 PM
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Cogs has just been a victim of circumstances for example-icetime-PPtime-PKtime-linemates. And his confidence took a huge hit and thats hard for a young player. Part of the problem was he was the best option we had for our fourth line when they were trying to win games other then face offs he is quite good after the drop playing center. Hopefully know that we our out of it they can play him on the wing in the top six to get his confidence back for next year.

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01-25-2010, 11:59 PM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thadd View Post
I think there are some things that we all need to agree on:

1: If we trade Penner or Lubo, we're going to get more in return than something like Boston's first, Ryder and Colborne.

2: Adding players like Moreau, Nilson, Staios or O'Sullivan into a proposal is only going to lessen the value of our return because they've got bad contracts.

3: It's very unlikely that Gagner is going to be traded before the end of the end of the season. He's far and away our best center and losing him before the end of the season without getting a #1 center in return(which is beyond unlikely) would likely enable us to set franchise and league records for most consecutive loses.

4: Penner and Lubo are our two best offensive players and it's not worth trading them unless an uber prospect, a great player with a great contract or a top 3 pick is coming our way.
I see no reason to be in a hurry to trade Penner or Lubo. Therefore, I would only do it if the offer is overwhelming. I have zero interest in Ryder - in fact it's safe to say he carries negative value in the deal. Colbourne, while intriguing, is far from being a sure thing. And the pick you're offering is mid-level. My answer: thanks but no thanks.

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