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Old
01-27-2010, 03:30 PM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK View Post
You made a rhetorical statement about how players are overpaid these days and I ignored it. Sorry about that but I'd do it again.

Rask is actually a RFA as is Gustavsson. Gustavsson will likely get more but not orders of magnitude more than Rask.
why would Gustavsson get more?

Rask is a 1st round pick, younger, and better than Gusto. He'll get more.

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01-27-2010, 03:31 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by dubey View Post
If the cap goes down like everyone says it will,
Actually, nobody says that.

The cap is expected to stay pretty much the same.

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01-27-2010, 03:35 PM
  #78
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Why would you post a chart that tells us we'll have $6+ mil in capspace, and then say we'd have no capspace?


Last edited by zeke: 01-27-2010 at 03:43 PM.
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01-27-2010, 03:35 PM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeke View Post
why would Gustavsson get more?

Rask is a 1st round pick, younger, and better than Gusto. He'll get more.
Gustavsson will likely get more responsibility, that's all.

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01-27-2010, 03:41 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeke View Post
Actually, nobody says that.

The cap is expected to stay pretty much the same.
That's not what they said the last time they talked about it on the Hotstove. I never said it would go down significantly though.

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01-27-2010, 03:43 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caesium View Post
Gee, glad hockey central finally caught up to what I've been saying for months.
There shouldn't be any cap trouble for this team next year.

Gooch is not getting 4 million +

White is not getting 4 million +

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01-27-2010, 03:48 PM
  #82
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Doug Mclean is an idiot. Hes as anti leaf as it gets

In no way does Gusto have us by the nads. Hes 37 in wins, 49 in GAA, and 50 in save %. Hes also RFA, so if he wants to much, let some other sucker sign him and we'll take picks (assuming its at least a 1st)

I'd glady take White at 4yr/10mi. Hes worth it.

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01-27-2010, 03:48 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by tp71 View Post
I wouldnt want to buy him out...we'd have to pay off that thing for 6? years I believe. Honestly, if theres nothing out there, bury him, re-entry him, or just suck it up with him as #6/7 defenceman for at least one more year. He might buy him out...but what would that look like on the cap?
I believe Burke does this because Finger isn't to blame for his contract. Someone else is. Burying him is useless, because he is down there for the year, as he would be claimed on re-entry. Burke is a "god guy" and will give Finger the chance to continue his career. He'll buy him out. I believe.

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01-27-2010, 03:49 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by robdicks View Post
I think the real issue here tho is even if you get Gus. at 2.5 or something.. we gotta fill a lot of roster spots at the average of 1.5 or 2 mil... that means that we cant really make a huge splash and are more or less stuck with what we have
MacLean is actually quite right in his analysis to a point while guessing on amounts..

Gustavsson signed a 1 year deal with Base + Bonus = $2.5 mil potentially this year.. So is it logical that he ISN'T going to take a pay cut for next season, particularly if he is expected to carry the load as #1?

Realistically Ian White who becomes a RFA will get a significant raise next season.. If MLSE was willing to pay Finger $3.5 mil then his agent is at least going to want a salary at around $ 3 mil at least.

Leafs highest paid players Kessel ($5.4), Komisarek ($4.5), Beauchemin ($3.8), Bozak ($3.75) are all Burke signings as such not expected to go anywhere. Other current contracts of Kaberle ($4.25), Blake ($4.0), Finger ($3.5), Hagman ($3.0), Grabovski ($2.9), Schenn ($2.9) are all signed and under contract for next year.

Leafs lower priced UFA players Pony ($2.1), Stempniak ($2.5), Stajan ($1.7), Primeau ($1.4), Mayers ($1.3), Exelby ($1.3), Wallin ($800k) are all among the lowest paid .. If they are dealt for picks, then how are they going to be replaced other than UFA signings.. Who is going to take Pony or Stajan current money and/or replace their current production?.

Outside of Toskala at @$4 mil coming off the bucks and being likely be reinvested in Gustavsson and Leafs other goalie.

So the situation for next year is certainly not rosy all things considered.

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01-27-2010, 03:56 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dubey View Post
That's not what they said the last time they talked about it on the Hotstove. I never said it would go down significantly though.
Rumours suggest a possible $2 mil drop is the present situation via the Salary Cap for next year.

So that means going from $56 mil to around $54 mil.

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01-27-2010, 03:59 PM
  #86
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Some discrepancy with the capgeek numbers, particularly with Stalberg (whose bonuses change next year) and Hanson (who's actually an RFA next year).

and Caesium you're right that there's about $2 mil less because we're over the bonus cushion.

So let me try this again:


2010-2011 CapHits

1) P.Kessel: $5.4
2) J.Blake: $4.0
3) N.Hagman: $3.0
4) M.Grabovski: $2.9
5) N.Kulemin: RFA: $2.0?
6) C.Orr: $1.0
7) J.Mitchell: RFA: $1.0?
8) C.Hanson: RFA: $0.9?
9) N.Kadri: $0.9 + $0.85 bonuses
10) T.Bozak: $0.875 + $2.85 bonuses
11) V.Stalberg: $0.785 + $0.065 bonuses
12) J.Rosehill: $0.5125
13) -----
14) -----

1) M.Komisarek: $4.5
2) T.Kaberle: $4.25
3) F.Beauchemin: $3.8
4) J.Finger: $3.5
5) I.White: RFA: $3.0?
6) L.Schenn: $0.875 + $2.1 bonuses
7) C.Gunnarson: $0.630 + $0.17 bonuses


1) J.Gustavsson: RFA: $2.5?
2) ------


1) D.Tucker: $1.0


Total: $47.3275 + $6.035 bonuses


That would leave us with about $7.5 mil to fill the backup goalie spot and 2 forward spots.

If we pencil in $1.5 on a goalie like Biron, then we're left with about $6.0 mil in capsapce to fill 2 forward spots.

Of course, if we run into any cap difficulties, it shouldn't be any problem dumping our #7 dman and his $3.5 mil contract into the minors.

Dumping Finger would leave us with $9.5 mil in capsapce, to fill 3 spots - 2 forward spots and the 7th dman spot.

the 7th dman spot could be filled for about $0.5, which leaves us $9.0 mil to fill the two forward spots.



The Cap isn't an issue for this team going forward, really.

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Old
01-27-2010, 04:06 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caesium View Post
PLAYER BONUS CAP HIT
FORWARDS
Phil Kessel $5,400,000
Jason Blake $4,000,000
Tyler Bozak ($2,850,000) $3,725,000
Niklas Hagman $3,000,000
Mikhail Grabovski $2,900,000
* Nikolai Kulemin $2,000,000
Nazem Kadri ($850,000) $1,750,000
* John Mitchell $1,000,000
Colton Orr $1,000,000
* Christian Hanson $925,000
Viktor Stalberg ($65,000) $850,000
Jay Rosehill $512,500
DEFENSEMEN
Mike Komisarek $4,500,000
Tomas Kaberle $4,250,000
Francois Beauchemin $3,800,000
Jeff Finger $3,500,000
* Ian White $3,000,000
Luke Schenn ($2,100,000) $2,975,000
Carl Gunnarsson ($170,000) $800,000
GOALTENDERS
* Jonas Gustavsson $2,500,000
* Backup Goaltender $1,500,000
BUYOUTS
Darcy Tucker $1,000,000
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS
ROSTER SIZE 21 
SALARY CAP $56,800,000 
PAYROLL $54,887,500 
BONUSES $6,035,000 
CAP SPACE $6,172,500 
So we're pretty much at the cap limit and the team is made significantly worse by letting its top two scoring forwards walk.

God help us if there is no bonus cushion next year, which is very possible. Speaking of bonuses, $6+ million is over the bonus cushion, so that will overflow and give us even less cap space than is listed there, by about $2 million less.
I still don't think you are correct about the bonus cushion. There is no dollar amount assigned such as your assertion that

Quote:
6+ million is over the bonus cushion.
this is simply incorrect as far as I can tell. Teams are allowed to go over the cap by 7.5% in bonuses.

Since the bonus cushion is 7.5% of 56,800,000. That allowable cap number is 61,060,000 with bonuses.

So a bottom line that looks like this:

Quote:
ROSTER SIZE 22
SALARY CAP $56,800,000
PAYROLL $55,309,166
BONUSES $6,135,000
CAP SPACE $5,750,834
Is totally fine. As far as I can figure a team could have 20 million in bonuses, as long as their payroll was only around 41 million. This is because 20 million + 41 million is only 61,000,000. And 61,000,000 < 61,060,000 and 41,000,000 < 56,800,000.

The rules as I understand them:
  1. Payroll cannot exceed 56,800,000
  2. Bonuses can inflate your payroll figure to a maximum of 61,060,000
  3. 6,000,000 is not the limit on bonuses

Can anyone confirm or rebut my numbers here? Caesium, you've been sounding like chicken little "for months" about the leafs cap issues and I think if others can confirm what i suspect about your math, it should put you at ease on the cap problems you think we're going to have.

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Old
01-27-2010, 04:07 PM
  #88
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i have to throw this out there, since i've read quite a few posts like the one i just read...

i know everyone thinks signing marleau is a good idea, which it is...but the price some of you people have him signing at is absolutely ridiculous.

all i see is "marleau for around $5.5mil" or "marleau for close to what he makes now", or whatever, but come on people.

want to know who is tied for 2nd in goal scoring this year? crosby and ovechkin.

want to know who leads the NHL in goals? marleau.

the guy makes over $6mil already...so please, tell me why he is going to sign with a team in a lottery position, after leading the league (potentially) in goals, and take a paycut while he's at it?

give your heads a shake!

some team will definitely overpay for him. whether or not that team is the leafs remains to be seen....but all i know is, there is a whole ton of leaf fans who think signing marleau is a great idea, yet are absolutely clueless when it comes to for how much.

if there was a poll on this, i bet the results for the question:

"should the leafs sign marleau?"

would end up being a lot different than the results for the question:

"should the leafs sign marleau for $7+ mil?"

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01-27-2010, 04:09 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Gustavsson signed a 1 year deal with Base + Bonus = $2.5 mil potentially this year.. So is it logical that he ISN'T going to take a pay cut for next season, particularly if he is expected to carry the load as #1?
You assume he'll hit his bonuses, which doesn't seem likely. So if he doesn't hit the bonuses, he 2 million will be a raise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Realistically Ian White who becomes a RFA will get a significant raise next season.. If MLSE was willing to pay Finger $3.5 mil then his agent is at least going to want a salary at around $ 3 mil at least.
He'll get a raise for sure, hopefully Burke can use some other d-men against him, we can't have that Finger contract as the benchmark for all contracts, otherwise we're up **** creek.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Leafs highest paid players Kessel ($5.4), Komisarek ($4.5), Beauchemin ($3.8), Bozak ($3.75) are all Burke signings as such not expected to go anywhere. Other current contracts of Kaberle ($4.25), Blake ($4.0), Finger ($3.5), Hagman ($3.0), Grabovski ($2.9), Schenn ($2.9) are all signed and under contract for next year.
Bozak again is likely to be impacted by his bonuses, especially with Kulemin and Gusto coming off the cushion (which seems like to be there). The players who are currently signed like Grabovski, Blake and Finger can all be dealt with if need be. I'd say Blake will be back, Grabovski and Finger are questionable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Leafs lower priced UFA players Pony ($2.1), Stempniak ($2.5), Stajan ($1.7), Primeau ($1.4), Mayers ($1.3), Exelby ($1.3), Wallin ($800k) are all among the lowest paid .. If they are dealt for picks, then how are they going to be replaced other than UFA signings.. Who is going to take Pony or Stajan current money and/or replace their current production?.

Outside of Toskala at @$4 mil coming off the bucks and being likely be reinvested in Gustavsson and Leafs other goalie.
Mayers, Exelby and Primeau are usually replaced by players in the 750-1.2 mill range, so there's savings there of anywhere from 500k to 1.5 million. Toskala is a big move out as well, since that should save us 2-3 million or so (if we opt to ride Gus). Raycroft's buy-out is also off the book, which creates a little room. You'll see guys like Stalberg and Hanson getting solid looks next year to replace some of the 4-9 depth forwards of ours too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess View Post
So the situation for next year is certainly not rosy all things considered.
Not rosy, but not bad at all. Cap space isn't hard to create, especially not for a team with deep pockets like the Leafs. Finger is easily replaced by guys in our system or ones looking for NHL work at a fifth of the cost. Blake may be tradeable (I don't believe so) with his salary only being 3 mill to a team near the cap floor. Alot can change, there are many options to create salary, so I wouldn't be too concerned with this issue.

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01-27-2010, 04:12 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by robdicks View Post
Maclean was on hockeycentral i believe yesterday. He was talking about the issues with the leafs and where this team is going.

Basically he was saying that Gusto has toronto by the nads and is probaly going to want a raise in the 3-4 million range (his guess was 3.5, but thought it could be as low as 3). He also believes that Ian White is going to want 10 mil over 4 years at the VERY LEAST. Then he suggested that the leafs had 9 roster spots needing to fill, at about the average of 1.5 mil. So if they make a big splash (which they need) thats going to drastically thin out the lineup. Scary thought considering UFA is really the only logical place they can gain assets from.

what do you guys think? I know a lot of ppl are going to say Maclean is a hack why listen, but he brings up a good point


edit: i hope i didnt misquote him about the nbumbers
....and this is why MacLean is an ex-GM and not a current one

I really like HC, but they should have Kypper on with MacLean more......Kypper is at the end of his rope with this guy, it would make for exciting live television

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01-27-2010, 04:12 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by zeke View Post
Some discrepancy with the capgeek numbers, particularly with Stalberg (whose bonuses change next year) and Hanson (who's actually an RFA next year).

and Caesium you're right that there's about $2 mil less because we're over the bonus cushion.

So let me try this again:


2010-2011 CapHits

1) P.Kessel: $5.4
2) J.Blake: $4.0
3) N.Hagman: $3.0
4) M.Grabovski: $2.9
5) N.Kulemin: RFA: $2.0?
6) C.Orr: $1.0
7) J.Mitchell: RFA: $1.0?
8) C.Hanson: RFA: $0.9?
9) N.Kadri: $0.9 + $0.85 bonuses
10) T.Bozak: $0.875 + $2.85 bonuses
11) V.Stalberg: $0.785 + $0.065 bonuses
12) J.Rosehill: $0.5125
13) -----
14) -----

1) M.Komisarek: $4.5
2) T.Kaberle: $4.25
3) F.Beauchemin: $3.8
4) J.Finger: $3.5
5) I.White: RFA: $3.0?
6) L.Schenn: $0.875 + $2.1 bonuses
7) C.Gunnarson: $0.630 + $0.17 bonuses


1) J.Gustavsson: RFA: $2.5?
2) ------


1) D.Tucker: $1.0


Total: $47.3275 + $6.035 bonuses


That would leave us with about $7.5 mil to fill the backup goalie spot and 2 forward spots.

If we pencil in $1.5 on a goalie like Biron, then we're left with about $6.0 mil in capsapce to fill 2 forward spots.

Of course, if we run into any cap difficulties, it shouldn't be any problem dumping our #7 dman and his $3.5 mil contract into the minors.

Dumping Finger would leave us with $9.5 mil in capsapce, to fill 3 spots - 2 forward spots and the 7th dman spot.

the 7th dman spot could be filled for about $0.5, which leaves us $9.0 mil to fill the two forward spots.



The Cap isn't an issue for this team going forward, really.
There's a couple of problems: 1. Burke's trying upgrade his forwards which means he needs skilled guys and they are expensive. So let's assume that it's Stajan and Ponikarovsky he's trying to upgrade from. They will likely cost atleast 6mil combined and maybe as much as 7.5mil. So they don't have alot of room to get players significantly better than what he's got.
2. If it's a hard cap next year, Burke is screwed as all those bonuses will count against his cap.

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01-27-2010, 04:18 PM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeke View Post
Some discrepancy with the capgeek numbers, particularly with Stalberg (whose bonuses change next year) and Hanson (who's actually an RFA next year).

and Caesium you're right that there's about $2 mil less because we're over the bonus cushion.

So let me try this again:


2010-2011 CapHits

1) P.Kessel: $5.4
2) J.Blake: $4.0
3) N.Hagman: $3.0
4) M.Grabovski: $2.9
5) N.Kulemin: RFA: $2.0?
6) C.Orr: $1.0
7) J.Mitchell: RFA: $1.0?
8) C.Hanson: RFA: $0.9?
9) N.Kadri: $0.9 + $0.85 bonuses
10) T.Bozak: $0.875 + $2.85 bonuses
11) V.Stalberg: $0.785 + $0.065 bonuses
12) J.Rosehill: $0.5125
13) -----
14) -----

1) M.Komisarek: $4.5
2) T.Kaberle: $4.25
3) F.Beauchemin: $3.8
4) J.Finger: $3.5
5) I.White: RFA: $3.0?
6) L.Schenn: $0.875 + $2.1 bonuses
7) C.Gunnarson: $0.630 + $0.17 bonuses


1) J.Gustavsson: RFA: $2.5?
2) ------


1) D.Tucker: $1.0


Total: $47.3275 + $6.035 bonuses


That would leave us with about $7.5 mil to fill the backup goalie spot and 2 forward spots.

If we pencil in $1.5 on a goalie like Biron, then we're left with about $6.0 mil in capsapce to fill 2 forward spots.

Of course, if we run into any cap difficulties, it shouldn't be any problem dumping our #7 dman and his $3.5 mil contract into the minors.

Dumping Finger would leave us with $9.5 mil in capsapce, to fill 3 spots - 2 forward spots and the 7th dman spot.

the 7th dman spot could be filled for about $0.5, which leaves us $9.0 mil to fill the two forward spots.



The Cap isn't an issue for this team going forward, really.
It may be in the cap but bottom line is thats still not a playoff team

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01-27-2010, 04:21 PM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeke View Post
and Caesium you're right that there's about $2 mil less because we're over the bonus cushion.
I do not think you were over the bonus cushion.

Your payroll worked out to $47.3275 that allows for 13.7 million in bonuses of which you only used about 6 million.

There is still about 7-8 million in cap space there.

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01-27-2010, 04:24 PM
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dubey View Post
10 over 4 for White is reasonable
3-4 for Gustavsson is hilarious

Leafs have to figure out what they are going to do with Finger though (and Blake to a lesser extent). I don't expect Kaberle or Hagman back either and hope they get rid of Grabovski.

Cap space isn't something the Leafs will worry about.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK View Post
MacLean is a drama queen, I am sure he was yelling all of that out for extra effect.
Pretty much this, MacLean hates the leafs and hardly has anything positive to say. I doubt you'll see Kaberle, Pony, Stajan, Mayers, Toskala back next season. Hagman is on the buble.

Finger will most likely be waived and sent to the minors. The Monster will probably get 2.5-3 mil....not 3.5-4....what has he proven to get that?

Guys Burke will target IMO include: Marleau, Plekanecs, Jokinen, Frolov, Metropolit, and Ott (i believe he's a UFA).

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01-27-2010, 04:25 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Baba Ganoush View Post
i have to throw this out there, since i've read quite a few posts like the one i just read...

i know everyone thinks signing marleau is a good idea, which it is...but the price some of you people have him signing at is absolutely ridiculous.

all i see is "marleau for around $5.5mil" or "marleau for close to what he makes now", or whatever, but come on people.

want to know who is tied for 2nd in goal scoring this year? crosby and ovechkin.

want to know who leads the NHL in goals? marleau.

the guy makes over $6mil already...so please, tell me why he is going to sign with a team in a lottery position, after leading the league (potentially) in goals, and take a paycut while he's at it?

give your heads a shake!

some team will definitely overpay for him. whether or not that team is the leafs remains to be seen....but all i know is, there is a whole ton of leaf fans who think signing marleau is a great idea, yet are absolutely clueless when it comes to for how much.

if there was a poll on this, i bet the results for the question:

"should the leafs sign marleau?"

would end up being a lot different than the results for the question:

"should the leafs sign marleau for $7+ mil?"

You could be right, but I highly doubt we see anyone paying that much for Marleau this year.

People know all about Marleau, they know all about his inconsistent and choking history, and they know all about what Thornton and Heatley can do to a linemate's stats, especially on the PP.

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01-27-2010, 04:27 PM
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adversary View Post
I do not think you were over the bonus cushion.

Your payroll worked out to $47.3275 that allows for 13.7 million in bonuses of which you only used about 6 million.

There is still about 7-8 million in cap space there.
If it's a hard cap next year all the bonuses count, and I do not beleive you can go over. I'm not super positive, but i beleive that's the situation if the NHLPA does not extend the current CBA.
If that is the case, the payroll would be 53mil and there would not be much room for improvements.

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01-27-2010, 04:28 PM
  #97
zeke
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adversary View Post
I do not think you were over the bonus cushion.

Your payroll worked out to $47.3275 that allows for 13.7 million in bonuses of which you only used about 6 million.

There is still about 7-8 million in cap space there.
Nah, I made a mistake.

56.7 x 7.5% = $4.2525 mil

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01-27-2010, 04:33 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Jackie Treehorn View Post
If it's a hard cap next year all the bonuses count, and I do not beleive you can go over. I'm not super positive, but i beleive that's the situation if the NHLPA does not extend the current CBA.
If that is the case, the payroll would be 53mil and there would not be much room for improvements.
That is if there is no bonus cushion, which we do not know yet. But isn't there also a credit system for cap the following year when the bonuses are not met?

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01-27-2010, 04:33 PM
  #99
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let me try again:

Salary Cap: $56.7
Bonus Cushion (7.5%): $4.2525

A) Total Cap + Cushion: $60.9525


Leafs Caphit: $47.3275
Leafs Bonuses: $6.035

B) Total Caphit + Bonuses: $53.3625


Total Capspace (A - B): $7.59


So about $7.5 in capspace, with us needing a 2nd goalie and 2 forwards.

and again, by simply waiving our 7th defenseman Finger, we'd have about $11.0 mil in capsapce, with us needing a 2nd goalie, 7th dman, and 2 forwards.

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01-27-2010, 04:34 PM
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeke View Post
Nah, I made a mistake.

56.7 x 7.5% = $4.2525 mil
Isn't the cap 56.8 though?

56.8 x 7.5% = 4.26 mil

Besides, capgeek does the calculations for you anyways. If it says there is cap space, there is cap space. Caesium hasn't been able to explain his 6+ million barrier for the last couple days to me so I think he's just making it up.

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