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Is coaching the problem?

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Old
04-09-2010, 12:43 PM
  #576
Ginu
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I'll admit one thing about Martin, our defensive system is night and day compared to last season. We actually have set plays to break out of the zone, something we didn't have last season. He preaches patience in the defensive zone when many times last year our guys would rush and just get the puck out. Now we at least have a breakout system using speed coming out of our end. It's improved a lot since last year.

However, I think the main problem here is that, while Martin preaches patience, he neglects the need for the team to play with urgency. I think this is a major flaw in either his game plan or understanding by the players. To me this seems like the biggest problem - having us play with patience but also dictate the play and take it to the other team. We're definitely not doing both until we get down and have to fire on all cylinders.

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04-09-2010, 01:38 PM
  #577
Des Louise
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First problem with Martin and this was evident last night, is that he's trying to fit square pegs in round holes.

Second problem with him is that he makes the easy decisions (ie bench young players over veterans). It's easy to go ahead and bench S.Kost to pass a message instead of doing that with Scott Gomez who was dreadful last night and has been for a while.

O'Byrne has been our best dman for 3-4 games, he gets benched this game.

S.kost has been one of our better players since the olympics, gets benched while our 7.1M dollar man makes the same stupid play over and over and coughs up the puck non-stop even when there's no pressure on him.

We need a coach that is capable of working with what he's given. Barring that, we need a GM that will feed him the players he wants. But option #2 is just begging for wasting perfectly valuable assets.

It's one thing to watch boring winning hockey. It's another to watch boring no guts losing hockey.

Promote Martin to ass. manager, and get Boucher up here ASAP.

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Old
04-09-2010, 01:44 PM
  #578
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yes

his system should have started working a lonnnng time ago. If it's not...change system or you are a bad coach.

decision-making in recent times very questionable.

dealing with adversity or a challenge: if you're not gonna do it, NAME A F'IN CAPTAIN

instructing players on what to do: facepalm....unless the whole team has been hit with a case of shock or mental trauma, I can't explain why they make the plays they do. It's not like them. It's clearly dictated by Martin. Our transition game - non-existant. It only appeared during the times Gomez used to be able to carry the puck up ice, into the zone and dish to someone. That is now gone.

what I don't know, but will speculated on: sees there's a problem, doesn't know how to fix it even though WE all do. He's getting into Carbo mode - my way or the highway (which ends up being the highway). Be a coach!

I'll say this: I like Perry Pearn. And Muller of course (cuz of all the positive energy he brings, as per Pierre Mcguire)

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04-09-2010, 01:47 PM
  #579
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Net year, they should bring Boucher as an assistant coach, the same way they brought Carbo in. Then the next season - head coach. I dunno how many assistants we can have, but I like all the other ones.

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04-09-2010, 01:47 PM
  #580
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
First problem with Martin and this was evident last night, is that he's trying to fit square pegs in round holes.

Second problem with him is that he makes the easy decisions (ie bench young players over veterans). It's easy to go ahead and bench S.Kost to pass a message instead of doing that with Scott Gomez who was dreadful last night and has been for a while.

O'Byrne has been our best dman for 3-4 games, he gets benched this game.

S.kost has been one of our better players since the olympics, gets benched while our 7.1M dollar man makes the same stupid play over and over and coughs up the puck non-stop even when there's no pressure on him.

We need a coach that is capable of working with what he's given. Barring that, we need a GM that will feed him the players he wants. But option #2 is just begging for wasting perfectly valuable assets.

It's one thing to watch boring winning hockey. It's another to watch boring no guts losing hockey.

Promote Martin to ass. manager, and get Boucher up here ASAP.
the only place id promote Martin is to popcorn handler

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04-09-2010, 01:48 PM
  #581
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Originally Posted by JackZap View Post
the only place id promote Martin is to popcorn handler
definitivement

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04-09-2010, 02:31 PM
  #582
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One thing that has puzzled me since the acquisition of Moore is how JM has not really used him as a checking center against the oppositions top lines. It's usually been the Plekanec line against other teams' top line, and to Tomas' credit the guy has been great defensively and continues to put up points.

However, Eric Staal torched the Habs last night, and what I didn't see was a consistent match up of what I assume is our checking line against him, all game long. Yes the Canes had last change, but JM doesn't use Moore's line as a consistent checking line on home ice either. His game plan going into last night should have been to completely shutdown Staal's line, with 1 d pairing and 1 checking line. Didn't see it though.

Good coaches work at getting favorable line matches, even if they are on the road. I think his rolling of lines doesn't put our top lines against opposing teams 3rd/4th lines often enough to increase scoring chances. Last night after the timeout was the 1st time in a while that I can remember where coaching was visibly apparent, but too little too late.

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Old
04-09-2010, 03:14 PM
  #583
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I was a Martin supporter as long as I could. Now that I can see he is killing this team and its young players, I want him gone. NOW.

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04-09-2010, 03:20 PM
  #584
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Originally Posted by habtastic View Post
Net year, they should bring Boucher as an assistant coach, the same way they brought Carbo in. Then the next season - head coach. I dunno how many assistants we can have, but I like all the other ones.
Why Boucher would want to be assistant when he's actually head coach...

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04-09-2010, 03:27 PM
  #585
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I,m usually very patient, especially with young players. But an experienced coach like Martin should be getting better results with the lineup he has. I'm still thibking it will take more than just one season to evaluate, but I really don't like what I'm seeing right now, and my patience is growing thin. I still think he has problems managing some of the players on the team, not everyone is following his leadership.

Might be time to chose a captain who can actually lead everyone in the same direction.

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04-09-2010, 03:28 PM
  #586
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Originally Posted by Natedawg View Post
I was a Martin supporter as long as I could. Now that I can see he is killing this team and its young players, I want him gone. NOW.
Dare I say it?

Boucher and Subban up for the playoffs!!!

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04-09-2010, 03:31 PM
  #587
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Dare I say it?

Boucher and Subban up for the playoffs!!!
at this rate... what do we have to lose?

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04-09-2010, 03:44 PM
  #588
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Quiz time! Who knows how to coach *real* hockey better? Jacques Martin or your left nut?

First person to reply with the right answer wins my e-appreciation.

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04-09-2010, 03:48 PM
  #589
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at this rate... what do we have to lose?
He's a motivator... He'd have what..? A week to prepare them?

He's French, billingual, very good... just missing experience and by his own words, he says he needs as much time as possible at the AHL level.

I don't see it happening, but for some reason, if it were to hypothetically happen, I think we'd see a motivated team comes playoffs.

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04-09-2010, 03:50 PM
  #590
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Originally Posted by Pascal View Post
Quiz time! Who knows how to coach *real* hockey better? Jacques Martin or your left nut?

First person to reply with the right answer wins my e-appreciation.
My beef with him is not "teaching" related, or system related.

My beef is a lot of players don't seem to respond to him. It's his leadership. The true captain of a team is first and foremost the coach. There seems to be dissention on that matter in the lockeroom.

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04-09-2010, 03:59 PM
  #591
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One thing that has puzzled me since the acquisition of Moore is how JM has not really used him as a checking center against the oppositions top lines. It's usually been the Plekanec line against other teams' top line, and to Tomas' credit the guy has been great defensively and continues to put up points.
Defensive lines and checking lines are mostly anachronisms these days. The Anaheim Pahlsson line that had Moen on it was already an oddity as a low-event line meant to neutralize the opposition's top guys and slow them down to the point the rest of your lineup can catch up against weaker opposition. The reason for this is that it rarely works; most first-liners will torch third-liners, because third-liners just aren't as good as first-liners even if all they do is try to hang on (if they were, they'd be on the first line). Even if they do hang on, they're not generating offense and the result is negative -- you're just hoping it's not so negative so quickly that the rest of your team can't make up for it.

Coaches now play strength against strength, pitting their strongest 5-on-5 elements against the strongest opposition. This is where a guy like Gomez, who doesn't get a lot of points but usually can keep the puck away from the bad guys and generate some offense against them, becomes a valuable player 5-on-5. At least that's what he did for other team, and for the Habs back in the early days when the system hadn't taken hold. The Habs play more of a checking-line style throughout their lineup now, so he's not really well-suited to the Habs' system.

It is generally a bad idea to consistently try to foil opposition scorers by trying to cover them defensively in your zone all the time. Eventually you break down and get scored on, and while this is happening you generate zero offense. The best way to defend in the New NHL is to have the puck on your stick in the offensive zone. This is part of why the trap is effective -- by preventing the opposition from reaching the defensive zone easily, you reduce defensive zone time.

This is also why Martin's "defensive" system, at its core, is bad; rather than being a trapping or puck possession style, it tries to achieve defense by allowing the opposition to attack and foiling them in the defensive zone. This is a useful, important skill because you won't be able to prevent defensive zone time entirely and you have to be able to defend when it happens. However, using defensive zone coverage as your sole means of defense is going to be ineffective in the long run, and even if you do it well, it will result in barrages of low-percentage chances against and you being badly outchanced. This is much like handing your nemesis a set of throwing knives, then trying to dodge them when he throws. If you practice dodging a lot, you may be able to hang on for a while, and dodging well is very useful in a knife-fight, but if you let him throw knives at will eventually you will get cut. In the old days where you could clutch and grab, defensive zone coverage was easier to achieve so that strategy was more successful; now you can't easily impede the opponent anymore, so that method of defense is less effective.

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04-09-2010, 04:03 PM
  #592
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Defensive lines and checking lines are mostly anachronisms these days. The Anaheim Pahlsson line that had Moen on it was already an oddity as a low-event line meant to neutralize the opposition's top guys and slow them down to the point the rest of your lineup can catch up against weaker opposition. The reason for this is that it rarely works; most first-liners will torch third-liners, because third-liners just aren't as good as first-liners even if all they do is try to hang on (if they were, they'd be on the first line). Even if they do hang on, they're not generating offense and the result is negative -- you're just hoping it's not so negative so quickly that the rest of your team can't make up for it.

Coaches now play strength against strength, pitting their strongest 5-on-5 elements against the strongest opposition. This is where a guy like Gomez, who doesn't get a lot of points but usually can keep the puck away from the bad guys and generate some offense against them, becomes a valuable player 5-on-5. At least that's what he did for other team, and for the Habs back in the early days when the system hadn't taken hold. The Habs play more of a checking-line style throughout their lineup now, so he's not really well-suited to the Habs' system.

It is generally a bad idea to consistently try to foil opposition scorers by trying to cover them defensively in your zone all the time. Eventually you break down and get scored on, and while this is happening you generate zero offense. The best way to defend in the New NHL is to have the puck on your stick in the offensive zone. This is part of why the trap is effective -- by preventing the opposition from reaching the defensive zone easily, you reduce defensive zone time.

This is also why Martin's "defensive" system, at its core, is bad; rather than being a trapping or puck possession style, it tries to achieve defense by allowing the opposition to attack and foiling them in the defensive zone. This is much like handing your nemesis a set of throwing knives, then trying to dodge them when he throws. If you practice dodging a lot, you may be able to hang on for a while, but eventually you will get cut. In the old days where you could clutch and grab, defensive zone coverage was easier to achieve so that strategy was more successful; now you can't easily impede the opponent anymore, so that method of defense is less effective.
Haha so you really think Martin asks his players to throw the puck away and play in the d-zone?

Only reason we're so often in our own zone is because most of our dmen can't clear the puck out of the zone.

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Old
04-09-2010, 04:05 PM
  #593
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Originally Posted by JackZap View Post
the only place id promote Martin is to popcorn handler
That's called a demotion

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04-09-2010, 04:06 PM
  #594
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Originally Posted by markov` View Post
Only reason we're so often in our own zone is because most of our dmen can't clear the puck out of the zone.
The less time you spend in the defensive zone, the fewer opportunities to mess up a clear attempt you're faced with.

That, plus the tendency to attempt to clear the puck rather than transition tends to increase defensive zone time as well.

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04-09-2010, 04:28 PM
  #595
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Defensive lines and checking lines are mostly anachronisms these days. The Anaheim Pahlsson line that had Moen on it was already an oddity as a low-event line meant to neutralize the opposition's top guys and slow them down to the point the rest of your lineup can catch up against weaker opposition. The reason for this is that it rarely works; most first-liners will torch third-liners, because third-liners just aren't as good as first-liners even if all they do is try to hang on (if they were, they'd be on the first line). Even if they do hang on, they're not generating offense and the result is negative -- you're just hoping it's not so negative so quickly that the rest of your team can't make up for it.

Coaches now play strength against strength, pitting their strongest 5-on-5 elements against the strongest opposition. This is where a guy like Gomez, who doesn't get a lot of points but usually can keep the puck away from the bad guys and generate some offense against them, becomes a valuable player 5-on-5. At least that's what he did for other team, and for the Habs back in the early days when the system hadn't taken hold. The Habs play more of a checking-line style throughout their lineup now, so he's not really well-suited to the Habs' system.

It is generally a bad idea to consistently try to foil opposition scorers by trying to cover them defensively in your zone all the time. Eventually you break down and get scored on, and while this is happening you generate zero offense. The best way to defend in the New NHL is to have the puck on your stick in the offensive zone. This is part of why the trap is effective -- by preventing the opposition from reaching the defensive zone easily, you reduce defensive zone time.

This is also why Martin's "defensive" system, at its core, is bad; rather than being a trapping or puck possession style, it tries to achieve defense by allowing the opposition to attack and foiling them in the defensive zone. This is a useful, important skill because you won't be able to prevent defensive zone time entirely and you have to be able to defend when it happens. However, using defensive zone coverage as your sole means of defense is going to be ineffective in the long run, and even if you do it well, it will result in barrages of low-percentage chances against and you being badly outchanced. This is much like handing your nemesis a set of throwing knives, then trying to dodge them when he throws. If you practice dodging a lot, you may be able to hang on for a while, and dodging well is very useful in a knife-fight, but if you let him throw knives at will eventually you will get cut. In the old days where you could clutch and grab, defensive zone coverage was easier to achieve so that strategy was more successful; now you can't easily impede the opponent anymore, so that method of defense is less effective.
Strangely, Carolina could play that type of game last night without getting bothered by the refs. Pretty sure the Leafs will get the go to for Sat's game too. The reffing in this league is ridiculous and not helping Martin's case either.

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04-09-2010, 04:29 PM
  #596
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Defensive lines and checking lines are mostly anachronisms these days. The Anaheim Pahlsson line that had Moen on it was already an oddity as a low-event line meant to neutralize the opposition's top guys and slow them down to the point the rest of your lineup can catch up against weaker opposition.
How do you explain Babcock's use of Richards in the Olympics?

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Old
04-09-2010, 04:30 PM
  #597
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The less time you spend in the defensive zone, the fewer opportunities to mess up a clear attempt you're faced with.

That, plus the tendency to attempt to clear the puck rather than transition tends to increase defensive zone time as well.
That's why I can't wait to see Boucher here. He's the total opposite of Martin as a coach.

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04-09-2010, 04:30 PM
  #598
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
My beef with him is not "teaching" related, or system related.

My beef is a lot of players don't seem to respond to him. It's his leadership. The true captain of a team is first and foremost the coach. There seems to be dissention on that matter in the lockeroom.
I think another problem is also that his lack of passion seem to rub on the players as well.
We don't have to look very far to remember a team playing with passion. Two years ago it was simply a beautiful time to be a Habs fan. So it's still fresh in our minds and outside a few exceptions, I truly have not seen any passion out of our club.

I share your view that it takes time to enstore a system and that's why I've often said I'll withstand from any criticism towards Martin until next year. But like you, my patience is running thin as well.

I don't think he's doing a good job with the handling of some players, and the fact this team looks unpassionate at this time of the year is quite alarming.

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04-09-2010, 04:38 PM
  #599
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How do you explain Babcock's use of Richards in the Olympics?
Richard's is a 1st-line talent, captain, leader and a work horse. Our third line is Dominic Moore.

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04-09-2010, 04:38 PM
  #600
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How do you explain Babcock's use of Richards in the Olympics?
Simple -- Richards is a first-liner.

The Olympics are not the NHL and the difference between Team Canada's first- and third- liners is nowhere near as great as that between most NHL teams'. When your third line has Mike Richards and two top-end wingers on it, you can roll it against Ovechkin and not get torched.

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