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Brandon Sutter Appreciation Thread

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Old
01-29-2010, 10:38 PM
  #1
Vagrant
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Brandon Sutter Appreciation Thread

I figured this one was well overdue for a player that has really developed and come into his own before our very eyes. When he was up here last year, it was way too soon. I will credit bleedgreen for speaking his mind on that and being rebuked by myself and many others. I bought the organizational line that he was ready. That his frame filling out wouldn't be an issue immediately in his game. I couldn't have been more wrong.

I will also admit to being wrong when I said his upside was "the ultimate 3rd liner", and 20-20-40 being the highest he could aspire to with his skill set. He is on pace to challenge for that this season as a 20 year old. He is our Jordan Staal in the making. He will be an ideal 2nd line center when he develops fully.

It is ridiculous to look at the transition he has made from last year to this year. There is nobody that went behind him in the first round of the draft that I would rather have as a prospect right now.

In a season where our prospects have largely disappointed or taken a backwards step, aside from Dalpe and McBain in my estimation, it's refreshing to see a guy take the bull by the horns and really improve his game.

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01-29-2010, 10:43 PM
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yeah, he's developing faster than I though... I expect roughly the production we get from Whitney out of him in 2-3 years... 25-35-60ish maybe

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01-29-2010, 10:47 PM
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There's no sophomore slump for Brandon

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01-29-2010, 11:01 PM
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AntonFromAppState
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Last year I was having trouble deciding whether to personalize my red jersey with either Brind'Amour or Sutter. I decided Brind'Amour. Bad decision.

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01-29-2010, 11:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaniacFromAppState View Post
Last year I was having trouble deciding whether to personalize my red jersey with either Brind'Amour or Sutter. I decided Brind'Amour. Bad decision.
That's not a bad decision at all. Yes, Rod has slowed down to a point where he's barely recognizable. I'd be lying if I said he didn't suck at this point. We shouldn't, however, turn on him. He was our fearless leader for several seasons, taking us all the way to a Stanley Cup. He gave this team everything he had until there was nothing left. I'd be proud to wear his name on my jersey. You won't find a better all-around nhl'er than Rod in his prime.

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01-29-2010, 11:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Cardiac_Canes View Post
That's not a bad decision at all. Yes, Rod has slowed down to a point where he's barely recognizable. I'd be lying if I said he didn't suck at this point. We shouldn't, however, turn on him. He was our fearless leader for several seasons, taking us all the way to a Stanley Cup. He gave this team everything he had until there was nothing left. I'd be proud to wear his name on my jersey. You won't find a better all-around nhl'er than Rod in his prime.
+1

It would be very "Toronto" of us to turn on one of our own simply because he has become a liability at the twilight of his career.

17 should and will be retired. It's a sweater that will never wear out its welcome at the RBC, and that staying power will serve you well.

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01-29-2010, 11:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaniacFromAppState View Post
Last year I was having trouble deciding whether to personalize my red jersey with either Brind'Amour or Sutter. I decided Brind'Amour. Bad decision.
Yeah, two of my jersey's are Cole and LaRose... I think yours is ok

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01-29-2010, 11:33 PM
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Roddy! Respects the legends, people. Brind'amour don't deserve trash talks, no matter how bad he plays now.

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01-29-2010, 11:46 PM
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i gotta give the kid credit. i didnt think he would be ready even this year, and when he came up and looked better i wanted him to go back to finish the year and be that much better for it. i took a beating on the subject last year, but to be fair i never thought that much of him as an offensive talent. my point was if we didnt think he needed minutes to develop skills because he was gonna be a role player than why take him in the first round? if we take him that high you have to let him get confidence as a scorer cuz you need more than smarts to make it.

i never thought he would be this good this fast, and i maybe never thought he would be this good at all. hes been our best forward imo. i generally cant stand whitney, and he's just doing what he always has been - being the scorer on a bad team. sutter has played like staal played the cup year. i think prior to the last week or so sutter was making staal look bad. he plays harder, hits harder, is naturally faster, is a better passer, sees plays better, is better at faceoffs. the only thing staal had on him was the shot and his presence down low. if this kid had a better shot i would say staals job would be in jeopardy, but as usual staal woke up again after new years and reminds us what he can do when he feels like it.

my comparison has always been to young trevor linden, and he looks more like him every day.

i just hope jr isnt satisfied with sutter as a no2 center. i dont think we can ink that kind of production in. he may never develop more than he is now. we need at least another guy who can play that role and is a little older. a derek roy, horcoff type. wed be a tough team to beat then.

anyways, congrats brandon - you a playa.

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01-30-2010, 12:04 AM
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Originally Posted by caniacho View Post


Roddy! Respects the legends, people. Brind'amour don't deserve trash talks, no matter how bad he plays now.
He should get crazy respect for that mullet alone!

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01-30-2010, 12:54 AM
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I'm still wary about Sutter. Not that he's not NHL ready, he is. I just have a feeling his is going to be a situation where the fanbase sees this great year from him and expects that from this point onwards.

If he can have another year or two doing this, both offensively and defensively, then great, we've stolen a great pick in the mid-round. I just can't shake the feeling the offense we're getting from him simply won't stick around.

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01-30-2010, 02:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueline Bomber View Post
I'm still wary about Sutter. Not that he's not NHL ready, he is. I just have a feeling his is going to be a situation where the fanbase sees this great year from him and expects that from this point onwards.

If he can have another year or two doing this, both offensively and defensively, then great, we've stolen a great pick in the mid-round. I just can't shake the feeling the offense we're getting from him simply won't stick around.
Well, the bar has been set at a reasonable level in my estimation. He has 12 goals and 10 assists in 44 games with a -4 rating. That would be roughly a 40 point season over 82 games, which I think is rather repeatable for somebody with Sutter's particular talents.

I don't think anybody is going to postulate that next year he should have 60 points. I think that would be unreasonable. But a full season of the play he has exhibited after his first demotion this year would be all he needed to show me over a full season before I really bought into the idea of Sutter developing into that coveted 2nd line center role behind Staal.

The work ethic, which if you've seen a Sutter play you know, will not dissipate the way it has with some of our other "fan favorite" selections. He doesn't appear to be a pouter either, which bodes well for slump busting should he see difficulties later in his career. He's just a great character kid. I think that part has never been in question. Even if he didn't pan out as a player, there is no doubt he could have a future in hockey by virtue of his on ice IQ which is perceptible even from the cheap seats.

Sutter's skating should be exhibit A in why you never put too much stock into a player's skating out of the draft unless it's painfully obvious it's not going to improve. What I actually had as a minor weakness for him as an 18 year old has turned into a strength. Even at the tender age of 20, only two years later, his skating has improved at such a dramatic rate that it makes you wonder what other developments are lurking beneath his exterior.

My only criticism would be that he's not nearly aggressive enough to honor his surname. It may be timidity based on his size, but I would love to see him get a little angry and get in somebody's face every now and again. For a player that will be a primary penalty killer and a pretty formidable checking presence once he fills out, that nasty edge that is a Sutter staple needs to be better represented. Other than that, he's right on schedule if not ahead. I only wish we could say the same for Boychuk. I had that development pattern in reverse.

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01-30-2010, 05:41 AM
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AntonFromAppState
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I'm not turning on Brind'Amour at all. Loved what he has done for this team. I just wanted a jersey of an active player that would have lasted me at least 2 seasons. That is the only jersey I own that has a name on it.

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01-30-2010, 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Vagrant View Post
I figured this one was well overdue for a player that has really developed and come into his own before our very eyes. When he was up here last year, it was way too soon. I will credit bleedgreen for speaking his mind on that and being rebuked by myself and many others. I bought the organizational line that he was ready. That his frame filling out wouldn't be an issue immediately in his game. I couldn't have been more wrong.

I will also admit to being wrong when I said his upside was "the ultimate 3rd liner", and 20-20-40 being the highest he could aspire to with his skill set. He is on pace to challenge for that this season as a 20 year old. He is our Jordan Staal in the making. He will be an ideal 2nd line center when he develops fully.

It is ridiculous to look at the transition he has made from last year to this year. There is nobody that went behind him in the first round of the draft that I would rather have as a prospect right now.

In a season where our prospects have largely disappointed or taken a backwards step, aside from Dalpe and McBain in my estimation, it's refreshing to see a guy take the bull by the horns and really improve his game.
I don't disagree with anything you said in your post... BUT there are some very good talents drafter after Sutter that I think you could make a debate out of. Benn and Perron in particaular.

#24 - Mikael Backlund - Calgary
#26 - David Perron - St. Louis

#42 - Eric Tangradi - Anaheim traded to Pittsburgh
#43 - P. K. Subban - Montreal Cantnadiends
#61 - Wayne Simmonds L.A. (via Anaheim)
#129 - Jamie Benn - Dallas (From Boston via Columbus)




There's more but I won't get into it. The one's I've bolded I think could be debated. Backlund has more offensive potential but I'd rather have Sutter for his all round game and he's no slouch in the offensive zone either. Perron, at this point I think you have to give the edge. He's got skill and is maybe on his way to back to back 50 point seasons. I don't think you can give Sutter the nod over him at this point but in the future I think it's very possible. Simmons is having a great year and from the LA games I've seen, he's a very complete player. Very comparable to Sutter imo. He's on pace for a 50 pint season as well and he really does it all. I think Sutter has better skill but they're equal in work effort so I guess we'll see. The other ones I listed are just highly touted prospects. It's hard to hear anyone from MTL or Canada talk about PK and not say he's the next Orr. But despite his defensive deficiencies he does have great skill rushing the play and making things happen... for better or worse I guess. Tangradi I don't really know much about except that the Pens posters seem to think he's the next greatest power forward. I dunno. Maybe he is... but probably not. Then there's Palushaj who get's a lot of hype on the St. Louis boards. I can't really keep up with all these prospects but I don't know. There's a few others that get hyped up by their fanbase, Omark, Martinez, Aliu... but it really can be crap shoot at that point...

All I will say is that I don't think we will ever be disappointed with Brandon. Even at the #11 pick. We knew what we were getting when we picked him. Maybe he won't be a perennial 30-30 player. Maybe he will. But he will be an extremely solid NHler and great 3rd line center at the very least. Maybe some of those guys will have better careers but we can't worry about that now. We have what we have and he IS a special player. Your comparison to J. Staal is very apt. And anyone who wouldn't want a player like that on their team isn't fit to talk about hockey.

Love live Sutter.

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01-30-2010, 08:06 AM
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Perron and Tangradi may put better numbers but they can catch Brandon two way game. Backlund is big project for me. People expect this kid to be 85-90 points player, i expected good #2 center.

Kevin Shattenkirk is the most interesting prospect drafts after Sutter.

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01-30-2010, 08:18 AM
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Quote:
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The work ethic, which if you've seen a Sutter play you know, will not dissipate the way it has with some of our other "fan favorite" selections. <snip>

Sutter's skating should be exhibit A in why you never put too much stock into a player's skating out of the draft unless it's painfully obvious it's not going to improve. What I actually had as a minor weakness for him as an 18 year old has turned into a strength. Even at the tender age of 20, only two years later, his skating has improved at such a dramatic rate that it makes you wonder what other developments are lurking beneath his exterior.
These are the points that I think have contributed most to his success. His work ethic seems to be outstanding...and..at least this season, he appears to have spent a lot of time working on some of his weaknesses and vastly improving them. Not only his skating ability, but the touch and scoring skills seem to have vastly improved.

The dramatic rate of improvement from last season to this season is remarkable (IMO). I doubt he can keep that up as the curve has to flatten out, but it is promising even so.

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01-30-2010, 08:18 AM
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To be fair Perron was drafted as an overager that year so he's a decent bit ahead of Sutter developmentally. And still I would take Sutter's two-way game over Perron's making it a wash or advantage Sutter depending on how each pans offensively. Perron, Benn, Shattenkirk and Petrecki are the best players selected after Sutter. Simmonds, Suban and Moller a definite case can be made for as well.

Sutter is ahead of schedule, and certainly ahead of where I thought he would be. I figured this would be his rookie season, where he'd come in and put up maybe 20 points. I didn't think he would be flirting with a .5 PPG pace probably until year 3 if not 4. Obviously his production has slowed down a bit since his start but I'd still say it's a safe bet that he ends the season with 35 points with a decent chance of outright hitting 40.

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01-30-2010, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
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To be fair Perron was drafted as an overager that year so he's a decent bit ahead of Sutter developmentally. And still I would take Sutter's two-way game over Perron's making it a wash or advantage Sutter depending on how each does offensively. Perron, Benn, Shattenkirk and Petrecki are the best players selected after Sutter. Simmonds, Suban and Moller a definite case can be made for as well.
Let me ask a different question..Based on what you know today, how many of the players drafted BEFORE Sutter would you take over Sutter.

I admit I don't know enough about all these players so I'll take a guess (even though I admit it is somewhat uneducated)

Kane: Yes, obvious
JVR: Yes
Turris: No
Hickey: No
Alzner: Yes
Gagner: probably..not a strong yes
Voracek: probably not
Hamill, Couture, Ellerby: No, but to be honest, I really don't know enough about these guys.

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01-30-2010, 09:02 AM
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Let me just make it absolutely clear. I am VERY MUCH in the pro Sutter camp. Admittely I haven't seen a ton a of games this season due to my location of vocation (nice rhyme) but I have watched every highlight (or maybe lowlight if you look at it that way) pack from every game this season. Sutter has been brilliant at times and shows up every game making multiple outstanding chances. Maybe the greatest optimism to take out of it is that most of those chances he's getting is all on his own. I'm sure his goal or point count could easily be added to by a lot if other people finished the plays he made out of nothing but hard work. I think he still needs a lot of work on his finishing, as he has had some great chances that he hasn't potted. But even still those were from chances that he developed on his own. He's a force on the PK and is a shorty threat every time he's on the ice. He's only on pace for 35 pints this season, which is still good. But he's played at a much higher level than his points would indicate. I'm thrilled to have him here and I have no doubt he will continue to mature physically and in hockey sense. I believe he will be a very good 2nd line C behind Staal for us in the long term.

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01-30-2010, 09:04 AM
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Kane: definitely
JVR: yes
Turris: no. Turris has the talent but I honestly think the Yotes rushed him and he may not live up to the billing.
Hickey: better then 50/50 for Sutter. Offensive defensemen take longer to develop
Alzner: yes, but Sutter has closed the gap big time this year
Gagner: yes
Voracek: 50/50
Hamill: no... and I was quite high on Hamill at the draft.
Couture: yes, close to 50/50 but yes. I thought Couture's career may have been derailed by injuries, but he's showing signs of being the elite talent many had him billed as at the start of his draft year. He had a good final OHL season and his numbers in the AHL this year are insane.
Ellerby: no

so basically I would rank Sutter as the 8th place pick in that draft to date, and that's only if all the 50/50s went the other way.

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01-30-2010, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Blueline Bomber View Post
I'm still wary about Sutter. Not that he's not NHL ready, he is. I just have a feeling his is going to be a situation where the fanbase sees this great year from him and expects that from this point onwards.

If he can have another year or two doing this, both offensively and defensively, then great, we've stolen a great pick in the mid-round. I just can't shake the feeling the offense we're getting from him simply won't stick around.
I tend to agree with your assessment. He's been a very pleasant surprise and surpassed just about everyone's expectations so far but the development of young guys can be a bumpy road. I'm not going to go crazy over a half-season of very good hockey from Sutter.

I love the style of play he brings and he is every bit as smart on the ice as he was billed to be. He still has a way to go as a playmaker, in my view, and given the amount of time he's now had on the top 2 lines I'd still have expected more assists than he's gotten so far.

All in all though, it's hard to find any real fault in his play this year but I'm not ready to pencil him in yet as more than a 40-50 point guy.

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01-30-2010, 10:37 AM
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Yeah, two of my jersey's are Cole and LaRose... I think yours is ok
I have a signed Jeff O'Neill jersey that's framed and hanging on the wall of my room

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01-30-2010, 10:41 AM
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I find this jersey discussion hilarious. Absolutely nothing wrong with a Brind'Amour, O'Neill, Cole or LaRose jersey. Hell, nothing wrong with a Babchuk or even a Hamilton one. The only jerseys I'd have to shake my head at are those of guys that prettymuch were malcontents while here and seemingly deliberately forced their way out.

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01-30-2010, 02:28 PM
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I just want to remind those that I intentionally said "in the first round", to exclude guys like Moller, Benn, and Simmonds from the discussion. There are always guys that are going to be "off the board" type picks that turn in great careers, but in terms of players we'd reasonably expect to have targeted, we did a fine job.

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01-30-2010, 02:54 PM
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Is there really going to be a problem if Sutter ends up being a 2nd/3rd line center tweener? The Sutter expectations are kind of funny to track from draft till now, they rise and fall like a roller coaster. Though the rises and falls all occur within the scope of an NHL player so its hard to complain. Within three years we are probably looking at Staal Dalpe and Sutter down the middle and it likely wont matter which one is with the second unit and which one fills the third. Everytime Sutter looks like more than a Madden type center, the future for the Canes down the middle brightens.

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