Sutter will never be Mikko Koivu. His absolute, and I mean absolute highest ceiling would be Kesler (as mentioned), but even that is wishful thinking, in my opinion. I don't think he ever reaches those heights. Defensively? sure. Offensively? I doubt it. The better comparison for me is likely Jordan Staal, though I think Jordan brings more to the table offensively in the grand scheme of things, though maybe not by much. We'll see what they flourish into down the road, say 3 years and it'll be more telling.
I still see Mike Fisher-like production/qualities here, maybe even the same type of player, somewhat. Not an exact comparison by anymeans, but I see some comparables. Heart of a lion, solid defensively, questionable 2nd line center (on a good, solid contending team), extremely good 3rd line center, 40-50 point guy on average, great leader.
I like the comparison to Mike Fisher, although I don't think Sutter will ever be the physical presence that Fisher is, nor would I want him to be. Fisher's career has been marked by several injuries because of his "crash and bang" style. But Sutter's defensive prowess is similar to Fisher's, and his offensive game is somewhat better IMO. As much as people have said that Sutter's playmaking is not first-line center capable, it's much better than Fisher's.
I think the main thing is to never play Sutter "out of position", which for me would be as first-line center. If you do, you run the risk of taking away the absolute best part of his game, which is his shutdown capability. Meanwhile, you're simply not going to get as much production from him as the team needs from that center position.
I think the best thing is to never pressure Sutter into scoring goals. He's smart enough to figure out exactly how to hone his offensive game, and aware enough to not let the idea of goal scoring get in the way of shutting down the opposing team.
I like the way he's been brought along by the franchise, and hope that they continue to keep him in that 3rd line center role. He may indeed get "overpaid" (for his position) during the offseason, but I really hope that with his new contract they don't expect him to move up to 2nd line center. That's just not his role IMO.
When Mikko Koivu was Brandon Sutter's age, he had a 20g 48pt season in the AHL. Sutter had a 21g 40pt season in the NHL.
Mikko's first NHL season at age 23, he put up a monster 21 points in 64 games.
If Brandon Sutter has no chance at ever being a Mikko Koivu level player, Mikko Koivu at 21 DEFINITELY had no chance of ever being Mikko Koivu.
This is why Im not a big numbers guy, they dont hold much water in this scenerio, in my opinion. Sometimes, stats aside, you can just watch a player and get a solid grasp of where they may end up or what their ceiling potential could be. Mikko Koivu always had that natural talent to his game, Sutter, not so much in my opinion. I highly, highly doubt Sutter ever becomes the offensive player Mikko Koivu is/can be.
This is why Im not a big numbers guy, they dont hold much water in this scenerio, in my opinion. Sometimes, stats aside, you can just watch a player and get a solid grasp of where they may end up or what their ceiling potential could be. Mikko Koivu always had that natural talent to his game, Sutter, not so much in my opinion. I highly, highly doubt Sutter ever becomes the offensive player Mikko Koivu is/can be.
I think you just over value certain skills. Doing a fancy dangle and scoring a goal on a slick wrister is worth 1 goal. Getting position in front and banging home a rebound is worth one goal.
There was a POS Expectations thread a while back...
I think the main thing is to never play Sutter "out of position", which for me would be as first-line center.
I would even back that up a notch and say he shouldn't play on the first or second line. Second-line Cs need to be able to generate offense consistently, and I'd rather not burden him with that responsibility. It would be awesome if we could somehow acquire a second C and let Sutter take on a more focused shutdown role with plenty of PK time.
I think you just over value certain skills. Doing a fancy dangle and scoring a goal on a slick wrister is worth 1 goal. Getting position in front and banging home a rebound is worth one goal.
There was a POS Expectations thread a while back...
I think you're overvaluing Brandon Sutter skillset.
There is the natural talent needed to be 'that guy', along with the drive, motivation, etc, of course.. which both Sutter and Koivu have. However, in my opinion, Mikko Koivu is simply a guy Brandon Sutter will never be offensively. I think you're substantially overrating Sutter here by trying to draw comparisons statistically and in saying "If Mikko Koivu did this, now does this, .. so can Brandon Sutter". They're two completely different players skill wise, in my opinion.
To me, Brandon Sutter is still an open book offensively. We know he's going to be one of the leagues best defensive forwards in the coming years and he'll likely be in Selke conversations. However, the big unknown with Sutter is what can he do offensively? That was the question the day he was drafted, and 4 years later it's still the question. Chances are in 3 more years the picture will be much more clear. He's so raw right now offensively that it's simply hard to tell where he'll level out or what he can potentially do. But, with that said, the fact is he isn't that naturally skilled, so right from the get-go he's got an uphill battle. He may have a year where he hits 30 goals, 60 points in his prime, but I highly doubt that's his average.
I could very well be wrong about Brandon Sutter, and I would absolutely love to be wrong. If he ever rounded out and developed into the player Ryan Kesler is for Vancouver, then boy does this team likely have a damned good shot at another Stanley Cup, so long as Staal, Skinner, Ward are still around, young guys like Dalpe, McBain, Boychuk develop among other prospects and the the team is built successfully by JR. I'm just personally not expecting that with Sutter as I think he's much more destined to be a Mike Fisher-like forward.
How do most goals get scored? By fancy stick handling followed by a sick wrister? If that was the case, I'd be on board with your rationale. And Sergei Samsonav would be a hall of famer. And Patrick "The most skilled player on the team" O'sullivan would have 20 goals for the Canes by now.
But its not. Its banging home pucks, creating turnovers, beating the goalie from the slot, scoring chances on the rush, and getting tips out in front.
Those things are about hockey IQ, body position, eye hand coordination, and timing. And there are plenty of players who have those attributes that aren't skilled in the same way Mikko Koivu or Patrick O'sullivan are. And many of them who excel are much more successful offensively than both.
How do most goals get scored? By fancy stick handling followed by a sick wrister? If that was the case, I'd be on board with your rationale. And Sergei Samsonav would be a hall of famer. And Patrick "The most skilled player on the team" O'sullivan would have 20 goals for the Canes by now.
But its not. Its banging home pucks, creating turnovers, beating the goalie from the slot, scoring chances on the rush, and getting tips out in front.
Those things are about hockey IQ, body position, eye hand coordination, and timing. And there are plenty of players who have those attributes that aren't skilled in the same way Mikko Koivu or Patrick O'sullivan are. And many of them who excel are much more successful offensively than both.
Well, if that was the case many more players would be 30 goal scorers if it was so simple as banging home pucks, creating turnovers, beating the goalie from the slot, scoring chances on the rush and getting tips out front. It's not that easy.
You think Brandon Sutter will be/can be a no.1 center who can put up big numbers, I tend to disagree. Brandon Sutter has never been a big point producer whether it be in Junior, the AHL or thus far in the NHL, why/potentially when that aspect of his game will all of a sudden come alive, i'm not so sure. One day it just may all come together for him, but as it stands right now I just don't see where those numbers will be generated from in order for him and a team to succeed with him as the #1 center, I just don't think he's got the tools. I think looking at the big picture Brandon can consistently be a 15-20 goal, 40-50 point guy, but that's likely the plateau in which his skillset will deliver, in my opinion. Which slates him as a likely mediocre 2nd line center but a tremendous 3rd line center.
Hopefully one day we can look back on this and I can be wrong.
I would even back that up a notch and say he shouldn't play on the first or second line. Second-line Cs need to be able to generate offense consistently, and I'd rather not burden him with that responsibility. It would be awesome if we could somehow acquire a second C and let Sutter take on a more focused shutdown role with plenty of PK time.
That's exactly what happened to Mike Fisher, he was anointed the second line center after he showed some flashes of offense one season (20 goals), and from then to now, Ottawa's been saddled with a below-average playmaker who makes 4 million and has stretches of 15-20 games with no goals. That CAN'T be your second line centerman.
We definitely agree, Sutter is an elite 3rd line center already. Why mess it up, right? If he happens to progress as a goal scorer, we can revisit this discussion in due time, but as of now there is absolutely no need to elevate him to 2nd line center.
Well, if that was the case many more players would be 30 goal scorers if it was so simple as banging home pucks, creating turnovers, beating the goalie from the slot, scoring chances on the rush and getting tips out front. It's not that easy.
You are making my point. It isn't that easy to bang home pucks, create turnovers...etc... Yet those things are a skill set that is different than the 'high skilled dangler' that you are promoting as the style necessary to be effective offensively.
Mr. Brindamour never had the 'skill' of a Koivu either.
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You think Brandon Sutter will be/can be a no.1 center who can put up big numbers, I tend to disagree. Brandon Sutter has never been a big point producer whether it be in Junior, the AHL or thus far in the NHL, why/potentially when that aspect of his game will all of a sudden come alive, i'm not so sure. One day it just may all come together for him, but as it stands right now I just don't see where those numbers will be generated from in order for him and a team to succeed with him as the #1 center, I just don't think he's got the tools. I think looking at the big picture Brandon can consistently be a 15-20 goal, 40-50 point guy, but that's likely the plateau in which his skillset will deliver, in my opinion. Which slates him as a likely mediocre 2nd line center but a tremendous 3rd line center.
When he went from 1 goal in 50 games to 21 goals in 72 games, did you not consider that as 'coming alive'? I also didn't say a big point producing #1. Which is why I brought up Koivu, a defense first center who has never scored more than 22 goals in a season. I also mentioned Nashville's alotment of random centermen. Teams focused on defense first that don't require a 30 goal 80 point guy centering the top line could use guys like Jordan Staal's or Brandon Sutter's at #1. There just aren't a lot of teams built to win 2-1 in the league anymore.
Finally, how daring to predict 15-20 goals and 40-50 points. He should have done that two years in a row after this year. At ages 20 and 21. Is he really never getting better? A player that has shown he is continually working hard and studies the game will stagnate in his 3rd year while most players are still in the AHL?
You are making my point. It isn't that easy to bang home pucks, create turnovers...etc... Yet those things are a skill set that is different than the 'high skilled dangler' that you are promoting as the style necessary to be effective offensively.
Mr. Brindamour never had the 'skill' of a Koivu either.
I'm not making your point at all. You stated most goals are scored by banging home pucks, creating turnovers, beating the goalie from the slot, scoring chances on the rush, and getting tips out in front, etc.. and as I said, if it were that simple, the league would be littered with 30 goal scorers, but it's not, and Sutter is likely never to consistently be one of them even based on those things you list, in my opinion. I understand completely it's not all about skillset, however, watching Brandon Sutter I simply do not see a future #1 center. Having Sutter play #1 is like Ottawa depending on Mike Fisher to be that legit no. 2 center they need, or needed. It doesn't work because of his consistant lack of production, and I don't think Sutter being a no. 1 center will work because I don't think his offensive production will be what it needs to be in order for that team to be successful with him playing such an integral role.
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When he went from 1 goal in 50 games to 21 goals in 72 games, did you not consider that as 'coming alive'? I also didn't say a big point producing #1. Which is why I brought up Koivu, a defense first center who has never scored more than 22 goals in a season. I also mentioned Nashville's alotment of random centermen. Teams focused on defense first that don't require a 30 goal 80 point guy centering the top line could use guys like Jordan Staal's or Brandon Sutter's at #1. There just aren't a lot of teams built to win 2-1 in the league anymore.
Finally, how daring to predict 15-20 goals and 40-50 points. He should have done that two years in a row after this year. At ages 20 and 21. Is he really never getting better? A player that has shown he is continually working hard and studies the game will stagnate in his 3rd year while most players are still in the AHL?
Of course it was coming alive, he had a breakout year, for sure. It was a year many didn't expect to see until quite possibly the prime of his career. It was a pleasant surprise, I just wouldn't expect those numbers to consistently escalate to much. However, when I say "come alive offensively" I am relating to Sutter being a solid #1 center, which by the way on a contending team, has to be able to produce. Mikko Koivu can do that, I have serious doubts Sutter ever will.
You're bringing up of Koivu because he is a defence first center who has never scored more than 22 goals as a #1 center is flawed in many ways, in my opinion. Koivu is a pass first center. He'll get you 20-25 goals, 40-50 assists, 70 points, possibly more down the road/with better players around him. I dont ever see Sutter hitting those numbers. Sure he may hit 20 goals consistently, heck, he may hit 30 in his prime or breakout year with 60 points (as I already stated he may), but I don't think that will be the plateau in which he levels out at offensively, I don't think he can produce at that rate consistently, if ever. Koivu is also on pace for his 3rd consecutive 70 point season, which by the way, is pretty damn good. That's close to what Staal has done for us. Those are pretty legit numbers for a top line center. Those are also numbers I don't think Sutter will ever hit.
Question my statistic predictions for Sutter all you like. I do honestly believe based on what he shows today, what I see, he'll top out at a consistant 15-20 goal scorer, 40-50 point guy. Of course he'll always be getting better, I just don't see him reaching heights in the 60-70+ point column too often, if ever. Which in my opinion, if you're a contending team, you need that high end production from your no.1 center. I said back in the summer that I didn't expect Sutter to increase on his numbers from last season. I think the numbers Sutter put up last season will be his likely average throughout his career, to be honest. Just because he was 20-21 when he hit those numbers doesn't mean that they will automatically increase as he gets older.
There is a good chance we'll simply have to agree to disagree on Sutter and what he can consistently do offensively, and what role he is best suited for.
I do honestly believe based on what he shows today, what I see, he'll top out at a consistant 15-20 goal scorer, 40-50 point guy. Of course he'll always be getting better, I just don't see him reaching heights in the 60-70+ point column too often, if ever. Which in my opinion, if you're a contending team, you need that high end production from your no.1 center. I said back in the summer that I didn't expect Sutter to increase on his numbers from last season. I think the numbers Sutter put up last season will be his likely average throughout his career, to be honest. Just because he was 20-21 when he hit those numbers doesn't mean that they will automatically increase as he gets older.
Agreed and that's the key point. Even if he becomes a consistent 20 goal/year guy his playmaking will preclude him from being a #1 center. Koivu may average the same number of goals but is in another class, and always will be, in terms of playmaking.
Agreed and that's the key point. Even if he becomes a consistent 20 goal/year guy his playmaking will preclude him from being a #1 center. Koivu may average the same number of goals but is in another class, and always will be, in terms of playmaking.
Exactly. And like I said yesterday, if Sutter ever does reach higher offensive plateaus than I expect, this team is likely in tremendously good hands especially with guys like Staal, Skinner & Ward around, not to mention McBain, Dalpe, Boychuk, among others. If Sutter can ever blossom into the forward that Ryan Kesler is, i'll eat my words every day of the week and twice on Sundays, and be extremely glad to do so. I just have a difficult time seeing it as of today.
I personally think Sutter is the NHL's perfect, legit as it gets, 3rd line center. He's unquestionably going to be one of the best defensive forwards in the NHL, he's got the smarts, natural leadership, a touch of offense that can likely get him 20 goals consistently, etc. He's the entire package, just not at the offensive end of the spectrum, in my opinion. Now, I absolutely think he could play 2nd line center and not hurt you in too many ways, but I still feel his production level will be best suited on the 3rd line, especially on a contending team. Which is what I base my discussion around, I plan on being a contending team, I dont intend on being Florida, or Nashville, etc, where Sutter could easily get away with a higher role. Those aren't exactly teams that are solid, contending organizations, which is what I expect this team to be in 2-3 years and in that time, I see Sutter fitting into the 3rd line center slot better than the 1st or 2nd center slot. Of course he could occupy a higher role, I just don't think you'll contend or win with him there. I'm not going to sit around and piss up a tree all day discussing how Brandon Sutter could be a solid 1st line center on a team not contending, I want to contend, I plan on this team contending, so that's what my expectations and discussion are based around.
If Zac Dalpe develops into the second line center many think he is/will become, boy oh boy do things get interesting for this franchise. I think Dalpe can be a 25-35 goal scorer, 60'ish point producer, consistently. If we can roll Staal - Dalpe - Sutter down the middle, we're built for success. Not to mention we very well may have another Sutter platooning our checking line for years to come if Brett grabs the bull by the horns and makes a name for himself, which I think he can. To be able to simply have the luxury to keep Brandon Sutter at the 3rd line center slot because our no. 1 and 2 centers in Staal and Dalpe are legit in their respective roles, gives this team a chance at multiple Stanley Cups in my opinion. So long of course that JR adds the correct pieces as we go along. Strong teams are built down the middle, we have that potential/luxury and it could very well take shape in 2-3 years.
I'm not knocking Sutter in the least in this discussion, i'm just saying what I believe. If i'm correct, fine, he's still a cornerstone player who I consider a franchise player for the role he can play in. Sure you can get 3rd line centers, energy guys, leaders, defensive specialists, etc, all over the place.. but Brandon Sutter is something more than that, he's everything and he can be that for this franchise for a very, very, very long time. If he turns out to put up better numbers than I predict/expect, then i'll say it again, this team is in very good hands and I will gladly say I was wrong about where I thought this kid could end up production wise. Either or, we can win with this kid and he can be apart of something special for this franchise.
Dalpe is a 25g 35a guy? Despite being 21, which I was under the impression is when players stop developing?
OSullivan, despite failing all over the place, was slotted for 30g 30a this year.
Sutter is what he is, and will never change. Even if his body still has another 10-20 pounds to be added, he's playing in the worst possible offensive situation, and has shown the ability to take massive strides in his game in short periods of time.
I think I see what's happened here. People only like to be optimistic if its of the 'wildly' variety.
I won't pee in your cereal and point out Staal/Skinner/Sutter pretty much have the center position locked up forever.
Dalpe is a 25g 35a guy? Despite being 21, which I was under the impression is when players stop developing?
OSullivan, despite failing all over the place, was slotted for 30g 30a this year.
Sutter is what he is, and will never change. Even if his body still has another 10-20 pounds to be added, he's playing in the worst possible offensive situation, and has shown the ability to take massive strides in his game in short periods of time.
I think I see what's happened here. People only like to be optimistic if its of the 'wildly' variety.
I won't pee in your cereal and point out Staal/Skinner/Sutter pretty much have the center position locked up forever.
Yes, truthfully speaking I do believe Zac Dalpe can be a consistant forward who notches 25-30 goals, 30-35 assists, 60 points in the NHL. Either as a centerman or a winger, that is to be determined. However based on him being Charlotte's go-to guy at center, I think he stands a chance at filling that very void for this team as early as next season. I have no problem saying that. Those are my personal opinions, observations and predictions, I'll stand by those until the day he potentially proves me wrong. Just as I will with my opinions and views on Brandon Sutter.
Don't get foolish here and take what I say out of context. I never once said just because a young player is 21 he will stop developing, get real. In Sutter's case, and I apologize if this upsets you, I simply do not see room for offensive growth in his game to bring him to the point of being a legit 1st line center on a good, solid, contending team. I see him as a phenominal (possibly even in conversaton as one of the NHL's best) 3rd line centerman who is in the conversation as one of the NHL's more elite defensive forwards, winning/in Selke conversations, a born leader, defensive specialist, extremely solid 2-way player, smart, heart and soul guy with some offense to his game. That is what I see in Brandon Sutter. If you so choose to disagree, I respect that and so be it. I welcome and respect your opinions.
As far as Patrick O'Sullivan goes, I do believe he has the natural talent to score 30 goals, 30 assists, 60 points in the NHL. Those were my predictions before the season and I still wouldn't change them even looking back on how his time here played out (obviously hindsight is 20/20). The problem with O'Sullivan is he has the "tools" but he doesn't have what it takes to translate those tools into points. He doesn't have the heart, desire, passion, tenacity, willingness, dedication to be 'that guy'. This actually brings me hand in hand with my thoughts on Sutter. Sutter has and does all those little important things, but he doesn't have the talent to be a consistently big point producer. You can still have all the ingredients in the world and not produce drastically efficient offensive numbers for a #1 center on a contending team. Sorry, but I just don't see it with Sutter. You may, and that is fine by me.
Pee in my cereal all you want, and I hate to be the bearer of bad news to you, but in all likelihood Jeff Skinner will be/projects to be a winger in the grand scheme of things in the NHL, and for this team. If you think our center situation in the future is forever Staal - Skinner - Sutter, well, we'll disagree on that too.
Dalpe is a 25g 35a guy? Despite being 21, which I was under the impression is when players stop developing?
Your problem here is that this statement assumes that every player in the history of the NHL develops in the EXACT same way. You did the same with Koivu, too. Sorry sunshine, they don't.
Stop being a baby and turning this good conversation into a sarcastic, immature dialogue because you can't find any more clauses for your argument.
Its hard to pin down what people use to gage the stage of development of various players on this board. In a perfect world, it wouldn't be arbitrariness, but I think that's one of the bigger factors.
Its hard to pin down what people use to gage the stage of development of various players on this board. In a perfect world, it wouldn't be arbitrariness, but I think that's one of the bigger factors.
Fair enough. If you think that's why people don't see Sutter as a consistent 35-goal scoring 80-point player, you're entitled to that opinion.
But, be prepared for my counter argument, being "It's hard to pin down what people use to gage the stage of development of various players on this board. In a perfect world, it wouldn't be fan favoritism, but I think that's one of the bigger factors." My guess is that if people didn't love Sutter so much for his great smile, no one would even MENTION that he's a number one center. I certainly hope he is, but common sense says he won't.
Fair enough. If you think that's why people don't see Sutter as a consistent 35-goal scoring 80-point player, you're entitled to that opinion.
But, be prepared for my counter argument, being "It's hard to pin down what people use to gage the stage of development of various players on this board. In a perfect world, it wouldn't be fan favoritism, but I think that's one of the bigger factors." My guess is that if people didn't love Sutter so much for his great smile, no one would even MENTION that he's a number one center. I certainly hope he is, but common sense says he won't.
If I ever make the claim I expect him to be a 35 goal 80 point player, by all means call me ridiculously optimistic.
The crux of the issue for me is how do you rationalize Sutter the still physically developing 21 year old having peaked at 20-20, and yet Patrick Osullivan, who all the GMs in the league have agreed is useless, has 30-30 potential. And Zac Dalpe, who I have nothing bad to say about, is expected to put up 25g/35a.
Perhaps Zac will. He still looks a little overmatched at the NHL level, but he's young. I certainly wouldn't be moving Sutter anytime soon to make way for Dalpe however.
But its random. Especially in a franchise littered with Keith Aucoin's, Ryan Bayda's, Mike Zigomanis', Joe Vasicek's (Former #1 Center), Jaroslav Svaboda's, etc.. I just think that getting 20-20 in the NHL should make them a favorite to hit 25-35 over a guy who has yet to show they can take a roster spot away from Chad Larose or Patrick Dwyer.
The same thing happened in a thread about skinner. Some people started talking Sergei Samsonav, and how this could be as good as he gets. I saw some people give up on Boychuck in these forums too, because if he can't make it as a 20 year old, it looks like he never will. Bowman seems to have avoided the hate thus far. McBain is still living off the last 14 games of last season for his projections.
Arbitrary.
Re Pee in Cereal: Yes, skinner projects as a winger on hfboards. Canes management however, seems to project him as a center. Seeing as hfboards was looking to fire JR for selecting him. Then fire JR for not sending him to juniors. I'm going to side with team Canes management on this one.
If Canes management had him projected as a center, they'd have him playing center. To my understanding, they're higher up on Dalpe playing center than Skinner playing center.
As in, we'll have Staal-Dalpe-Sutter down the middle.
Wallym, those are all fair points, and I respect all of them. I personally don't think Sutter's done maturing, I just think that he's not ever going to be a number 1 center.
For clarification purposes, I know you keep throwing out names like Vasicek, Bozak, and anyone playing for the Preds, saying that they're all number one centers and Sutter's better than them. I just want you to realize that we're not just talking about people who actually play #1 center. We're talking about TRUE #1 centers. The Pens have two, in Crosby and Malkin. The Leafs have none. I'm sure you already realize this, but with the way you're throwing some of these names out there I'm not quite sure...
I guess the reason I'm not so optimistic is that he's never been a scorer. Even in the WHL, he's NEVER scored at a PPG pace in his career. If his best season with Red Deer was 57 points in 71 games, how can he ever be expected to score 70 points in 82 games? Sure, anything's possible and I hope he does, but having never shown the offensive ability to put up big clips of points, how can one expect it to appear? His offensive game can get better, certainly, and he should be a consistent 20 goal scorer, but having never shown signs of a dominant offensive game it's a stretch to say that he'll "develop" one out of thin air.
Sutter is young trevor linden minus the offense. Much like linden, I still think sutter should be a rw. Linden was a rw early on, pushed to the center due to his two way game, smarts, and a lack of competition. He always preferred rw, and was better at it. Sutter has the same lanky skating, the same straight ahead drive, and he almost always drives wide like a winger, and does great work on the forecheck. He really reminds me of linden. He isn't remotely physical enough to be a kesler or fisher, and isn't nearly creative/ skilled enough for the koivu comparison. Hes a jack of all trades, master of none at this point.
Not even close to a no 1 center to this point. Arguably not a real no 2. As per my argument, I'd make him a top 6 wing, not sure about center.
Last edited by bleedgreen: 02-13-2011 at 12:12 PM.
