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#55: Flyers @ Oilers - February 3, 2010 - 9:30 PM (ET)

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02-03-2010, 11:40 PM
  #626
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
1) We can't afford to have "bad games" when the playoff race is this close and we already had 17 games worth of unbelievable suckitude earlier in the year.
Can we afford to give away games to bad opponents? No. Is it going to happen? Yes, the psychology in play is the same (the term "trap game" developed for a reason).

We dug a hole and that's going to make it harder. They've erased the majority of the damage, but they need to keep the pedal down for sure.

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2) We already seem to have had a ton of those bad games already. This loss really reminds me of that 1-0 shutout to Atlanta from a while back.
Eh...Hedberg really did rob us in that game.

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Carter has been our best offensive player this whole year, but he's still almost 10 points below PPG, nowhere near 46 goal form, and only has 2 points in his last 10 games. I expect more from him.
Carter will likely be streaky his entire career...just seems to be the way it goes with him. His goal scoring is down, but that's also been paired with better assist production by comparison (when things have been going well). Right now he's on pace for a 71 point season, which if he finished strong will translate out to close to a PPG season. About what I'd expect from him. I don't really see him as a guy that is going to top out too much more than ~80 as far as expectations.

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02-03-2010, 11:43 PM
  #627
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Do we really believe that this forward group is good enough to get it done in the playoffs? Just about every players scoring is down from last year. So IMO something needs to happen because we are at game 55 and there is no sign that someone is going to take the reigns and lead this team going forward for a long consistant stretch.
We have had guys who have some good stretches Richards earlier in the year, Carter recently.
Now I am not saying to blow up the forward group and go get Kovalchuk, I just think we are going to have to find someone. Because clearly this group is not good enough. Maybe I am in the minority but I dont feel good about this forward group for the playoff push. We just cant wait for guys to hopefully catch fire.
When you give up 1 goal in 2 road games you should have 4 points. period.

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02-03-2010, 11:43 PM
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Briere should be the first one to go if someone would be so stupid to take him on. Making $6.5M and on pace for 55 points.
Yeah lately he's been snakebiten, but i thought he had a pretty good stretch for a bit, where he was seemingly the one keeping us in games. There are, in my opinion, bigger fish to fry than Briere. > Gagne for one at his $

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02-03-2010, 11:45 PM
  #629
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Do we really believe that this forward group is good enough to get it done in the playoffs? Just about every players scoring is down from last year. So IMO something needs to happen because we are at game 55 and there is no sign that someone is going to take the reigns and lead this team going forward for a long consistant stretch.
We have had guys who have some good stretches Richards earlier in the year, Carter recently.
Now I am not saying to blow up the forward group and go get Kovalchuk, I just think we are going to have to find someone. Because clearly this group is not good enough. Maybe I am in the minority but I dont feel good about this forward group for the playoff push. We just cant wait for guys to hopefully catch fire.
When you give up 1 goal in 2 road games you should have 4 points. period.
As I've noted consistently...despite our PROLONGED slump, we are 6th in the league in scoring as a team. That's with all these individual players being down. We are a very well balanced team, with production coming from all four lines. If we can just get Gagne right, we'll be extremely dangerous.

When healthy and playing to our talent, we've easily been one of the top 5 offenses this year.

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02-03-2010, 11:47 PM
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Briere should be the first one to go if someone would be so stupid to take him on. Making $6.5M and on pace for 55 points.
In terms of cap hit, yes, he should be the first to go. However, he's sadly been one of our more productive forwards this year. We kind of need him for now. His numbers aren't as bad when you consider the fact that everyone except for our fourth and third lines (which shouldn't be relied on to be a pivotal part of the offense in the first place) is doing really, really bad.

Richards has seven more games played and only has nine more points and four more goals.

The former 46 goal-scorer Jeff Carter is only four goals ahead of Briere with seven more games played.

Hartnell, in six more games played mind you, has six less goals and six less points.

Although Gagne has a fairly decent stat-sheet I think it's fair to say that he's been rather unimpressive as well.

So in terms of cap-hit we should get rid of Briere eventually, but not until he's no longer an important part of our offense.

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02-03-2010, 11:48 PM
  #631
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Speechless...
Good Teams do not get shutout by Toronto and Edmonton or blow 2 goal leads in the 3rd to Atlanta.

"They know the words, just not the melody"

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02-03-2010, 11:48 PM
  #632
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Is it safe to say that this team will never win a Stanley Cup while Scott Hartnell is on the team?

I'm never impressed with his play.
He was good last year. Around that? Not so much. I agree with GKJ I just dont think he fits into Laviolette's system and what he wants to do.
I think he is expendable. We need scoring right now not fighting, grit and the havoc he creates sometimes with the goalies.
Now I am not just blaming him. Some guys need to really pick it up. See Gagne. He needs to start burying those chances. Yes I know he is struggling right now. But he needs to pick up the scoring. Along with many others.

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02-03-2010, 11:49 PM
  #633
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In terms of cap hit, yes, he should be the first to go. However, he's sadly been one of our more productive forwards this year. We kind of need him for now. His numbers aren't as bad when you consider the fact that everyone except for our fourth and third lines (which shouldn't be relied on to be a pivotal part of the offense in the first place) is doing really, really bad.

Richards has seven more games played and only has nine more points and four more goals.

The former 46 goal-scorer Jeff Carter is only four goals ahead of Briere with seven more games played.

Hartnell, in six more games played mind you, has six less goals and six less points.

Although Gagne has a fairly decent stat-sheet I think it's fair to say that he's been rather unimpressive as well.

So in terms of cap-hit we should get rid of Briere eventually, but not until he's no longer an important part of our offense.
Sadly, well put.

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02-03-2010, 11:50 PM
  #634
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He's perfectly fine right now? Might need to check your info out.
My point was that Boucher's injury led to Leighton getting on the ice in the first place.

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02-03-2010, 11:50 PM
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Do we really believe that this forward group is good enough to get it done in the playoffs? .
They do have the talent there to get it done, but as you said none of them are really playing like it this year.

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Yeah lately he's been snakebiten, but i thought he had a pretty good stretch for a bit, where he was seemingly the one keeping us in games. There are, in my opinion, bigger fish to fry than Briere. > Gagne for one at his $
He did have a good stretch, but his overall performance has been disappointing. I agree about Gagne, too, but to me Briere is the biggest fish to fry considering he is the highest paid player and has never lived up to his contract here. It also seems like he goes without criticism the most while the blame is constantly laid at the feet of Hartnell, Richards, Carter, and to a lesser extent Gagne. Not that they don't deserve it, but Briere's season is just as disappointing. I don't know, the forwards are just a mess this year.

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02-03-2010, 11:51 PM
  #636
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I don't have a problem with Carter and Richards. Carter hasn't scored in a few games but who scores that much? Some of you act like our top guys are supposed to get 60 in a year and it ain't gonna happen. Richards scored two on Monday. Carter and Richards bring a lot more to the game than most of the others because they're defensive as well as offensive. They've both improved in the face off circle this season. Richards is excellent with his hits and they're both aware enough of their surroundings that they aren't going to get caught with their heads down.

I'm more concerned with the supporting cast. Gagne and Hartnell and over the past several games, Briere are a big issue right now. Hartnell crashes the net but takes penalties, some by reputation, others legit. He just doesn't know where the line is and constantly crosses it.

I'm happy with our defence right now. Krajicek is a big improvement over OKT and Coburn isn't doing much wrong these days like he was in the first half of the season and most of last.

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02-03-2010, 11:53 PM
  #637
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
As I've noted consistently...despite our PROLONGED slump, we are 6th in the league in scoring as a team. That's with all these individual players being down. We are a very well balanced team, with production coming from all four lines. If we can just get Gagne right, we'll be extremely dangerous.

When healthy and playing to our talent, we've easily been one of the top 5 offenses this year.
and at the same time this forward group is down right frustrating to watch and terribly inconsistant. Score 6, 7 goals a game against the Rangers, and Pens.
Get shutout by Atlanta, Toronto and Edmonton.
Thats the thing that gets me with this team is the inconsistancy and its been pretty much been there all season.
I am not asking for 5,6, or 7 goals a game. But come on the efforts like we had tonight and in Toronto are IMO inexcusable.

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02-03-2010, 11:54 PM
  #638
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They do have the talent there to get it done, but as you said none of them are really playing like it this year.
Eh, that's where you need to look at this season in segments. The wheels REALLY came off...as a team...for everyone. A full 20% of this season was a complete, team-wide lost cause.

You look at the majority of those guys around that segment, they've played pretty well.

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He did have a good stretch, but his overall performance has been disappointing. I agree about Gagne, too, but to me Briere is the biggest fish to fry considering he is the highest paid player and has never lived up to his contract here. It also seems like he goes without criticism the most while the blame is constantly laid at the feet of Hartnell, Richards, Carter, and to a lesser extent Gagne. Not that they don't deserve it, but Briere's season is just as disappointing. I don't know, the forwards are just a mess this year.
Briere has shouldered his fair share of criticism...lets not forget that he was booed by the home crowd. Gagne's season has been effed by injury from start to now...I think criticism of him has largely been unfair because it simply doesn't acknowledge that fact. Richards and Carter, despite their problems, are leading this team in scoring. Hartnell's season has been a struggle...no doubt.

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02-03-2010, 11:55 PM
  #639
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Edmonton?

Edmonton?

I hope Laviolette skates em till their skates are filled with blood...especially that dumb sob Hartnell.

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02-03-2010, 11:56 PM
  #640
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They do have the talent there to get it done, but as you said none of them are really playing like it this year.


He did have a good stretch, but his overall performance has been disappointing. I agree about Gagne, too, but to me Briere is the biggest fish to fry considering he is the highest paid player and has never lived up to his contract here. It also seems like he goes without criticism the most while the blame is constantly laid at the feet of Hartnell, Richards, Carter, and to a lesser extent Gagne. Not that they don't deserve it, but Briere's season is just as disappointing. I don't know, the forwards are just a mess this year.
I hear that, it seems stanley cup pressure is a *****! Not going to get into it with the others, but there was a time when Briere was seemingly trying to lead this team with strong play and goals when they really needed it IMO. That's why the free pass from me. That and his wife has tig ass bitties!

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02-03-2010, 11:57 PM
  #641
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and at the same time this forward group is down right frustrating to watch and terribly inconsistant. Score 6, 7 goals a game against the Rangers, and Pens.
Get shutout by Atlanta, Toronto and Edmonton.
Thats the thing that gets me with this team is the inconsistancy and its been pretty much been there all season.
I am not asking for 5,6, or 7 goals a game. But come on the efforts like we had tonight and in Toronto are IMO inexcusable.
The shutout by Atlanta was a STELLAR goaltending performance by Hedberg. I have a bigger problem with the abortion of a 3rd period they just played against Atlanta.

Toronto...****tastic.

Honestly, while this was a flat game, I thought we played decently. Unlike the Stevens era, this team is really consistently putting forward a good "team game" with good frequency. Tonight, they didn't pop their chances and it ended up costing them in the end. But if those two pipes go in, Richards buries that one earlier on in the game, and it's 3-0...it's a different story.

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02-03-2010, 11:58 PM
  #642
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Originally Posted by FireHolmgrenDotCom View Post
Do we really believe that this forward group is good enough to get it done in the playoffs? Just about every players scoring is down from last year. So IMO something needs to happen because we are at game 55 and there is no sign that someone is going to take the reigns and lead this team going forward for a long consistant stretch.
We have had guys who have some good stretches Richards earlier in the year, Carter recently.
Now I am not saying to blow up the forward group and go get Kovalchuk, I just think we are going to have to find someone. Because clearly this group is not good enough. Maybe I am in the minority but I dont feel good about this forward group for the playoff push. We just cant wait for guys to hopefully catch fire.
When you give up 1 goal in 2 road games you should have 4 points. period.
I feel the same way. Our offense, this entire year, has been amazingly streaky. I can't think one person in our top six who hasn't been streaky this year. Except for Hartnell. He just flat-out sucks.

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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
As I've noted consistently...despite our PROLONGED slump, we are 6th in the league in scoring as a team. That's with all these individual players being down. We are a very well balanced team, with production coming from all four lines. If we can just get Gagne right, we'll be extremely dangerous.

When healthy and playing to our talent, we've easily been one of the top 5 offenses this year.
Well said. That's the problem though. "When healthy and playing to our talent". We're rarely fully healthy (although most teams aren't, unless you're the Rangers) and we're never consistently playing up to our talent level. The offense is like freaking Jekyll and Hyde. They either blow the other team out of the water with goal-scoring or put up snoozefests like this one where we try to out-trap the other team because our offense sucks ass.

Top teams, like Pittsburgh, aren't this streaky. The games where they don't score are usually the exception and not the rule.

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Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
He did have a good stretch, but his overall performance has been disappointing. I agree about Gagne, too, but to me Briere is the biggest fish to fry considering he is the highest paid player and has never lived up to his contract here. It also seems like he goes without criticism the most while the blame is constantly laid at the feet of Hartnell, Richards, Carter, and to a lesser extent Gagne. Not that they don't deserve it, but Briere's season is just as disappointing. I don't know, the forwards are just a mess this year.
The difference between Briere and Hartnell, Richards, Carter, and to a lesser extent Gagne is that Briere has been playing up to his skill level for most of the year. The rest of the team is capable of much, much more. At least in my eyes.

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02-03-2010, 11:58 PM
  #643
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I'm not crazy about Hartnell and Gagne right now.

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02-03-2010, 11:59 PM
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Felt it coming on like after eating at Denny's the big ******* after the impotence in the 2nd. Let a team hang around blah blah adage.
I laughed after the goal actually.

It's cool cause I wasted my night watching on a crap stream (thx fios this is big).
Felt like watching the damn game on an etch-a-sketch and Jim Jackson sounded like he was talking through a roll of paper towels.
Nothing like watching blobs of pixels **** the night away.

Hope Briere can make some tree house cookies because his lack of gamesmanship (****ing goals actually) is hard to digest.

Btw first post nice to meet you all.

****

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02-04-2010, 12:01 AM
  #645
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Well said. That's the problem though. "When healthy and playing to our talent". We're rarely fully healthy (although most teams aren't, unless you're the Rangers) and we're never consistently playing up to our talent level. The offense is like freaking Jekyll and Hyde. They either blow the other team out of the water with goal-scoring or put up snoozefests like this one where we try to out-trap the other team because our offense sucks ass.
Eh, this isn't really true. Pull out the slump from hell from this season, and the offense has been rather consistent. We were consistently good at the beginning of the year, and have been consistently good since the new year rolled over...and were consistently awful for a while there.

You're going to get shutout here and there...it's just the way it works.

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Top teams, like Pittsburgh, aren't this streaky. The games where they don't score are usually the exception and not the rule.
Yeah, well when you have two guys capable of a 100 pts, its tough for the team to go into any sort of rut offensively. We don't have one of those guys, and it would cost an arm and a leg to get the one guy like that currently available (and I don't want him anyway).

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02-04-2010, 12:06 AM
  #646
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Eh, this isn't really true. Pull out the slump from hell from this season, and the offense has been rather consistent. We were consistently good at the beginning of the year, and have been consistently good since the new year rolled over...and were consistently awful for a while there.

You're going to get shutout here and there...it's just the way it works.

So because it was the rut from hell it doesn't count as part of our consistency issues? That doesn't make sense to me.

We played great the first seventeen, god-awful the next seventeen, lost a lot of games the first of Laviolette's tenure with us, then played pretty well, then get shutout by Toronto 4-0 and Edmonton 1-0. That's pretty inconsistent.

Yeah, well when you have two guys capable of a 100 pts, its tough for the team to go into any sort of rut offensively. We don't have one of those guys, and it would cost an arm and a leg to get the one guy like that currently available (and I don't want him anyway).
Pick out any top team then. San Jose. Vancouver. Chicago. Buffalo. New Jersey. Pittsburgh. It doesn't matter. They all perform pretty consistently when it comes to their goal-scoring. Even relatively low-scoring teams like Buffalo, NJ, and Phoenix have been pretty consistent all year long with their offense.

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02-04-2010, 12:12 AM
  #647
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Pick out any top team then. San Jose. Vancouver. Chicago. Buffalo. New Jersey. Pittsburgh. It doesn't matter. They all perform pretty consistently when it comes to their goal-scoring. Even relatively low-scoring teams like Buffalo, NJ, and Phoenix have been pretty consistent all year long with their offense.
Do I think the rut from hell is all that good an indicator of future performance from this group?

No.

We have two years of these guys (for the most part), I don't think that 15 game sample (which is skewing all our season long stats down) is a good analytical tool for this club under Laviolette (I also think it was an outlier for Stevens, as the key element there was the PP disappeared).

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02-04-2010, 12:14 AM
  #648
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Do I think the rut from hell is all that good an indicator of future performance from this group?

No.

We have two years of these guys (for the most part), I don't think that 15 game sample (which is skewing all our season long stats down) is a good analytical tool for this club under Laviolette (I also think it was an outlier for Stevens, as the key element there was the PP disappeared).
The PP went 0 for 4 today and I'm pretty sure it hasn't been producing for the last few games.

I never said that the rut from hell was a good indicator of how this team can or will perform, but it sure as hell helps to prove the consistency issue.

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02-04-2010, 12:17 AM
  #649
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This isn't a bad hockey club, but it isn't a great club either. There are some good pieces in place, but there are some bad pieces as well. This is definitely not a Stanley Cup contending team. The Flyers are a middle of the road hockey club right now. Holmgren has screwed this team so much that it's going to take time to straighten out the club. First he says he wants to build on speed and skill. Then he says he wants the club to be tougher defensively. Then he says we need to get back to being a speed and skill club. Then he sells the farm to get an over the hill Pronger because "we need that hammer" on the back end. Now Holmgren is looking at Kovalchuk because it looks like the Flyers don't have enough speed and skill.

You want to know why this team is team Jekyll and Hyde for? It's because our GM has no clue as to what type of identity he wants this team to have. Honestly, the guy continues to throw crap against a wall to see what sticks. And if it doesn't work, oh well, he just deals the player and a draft pick away to make it someone else's problem and then the idiot goes into the off season and makes the same mistakes that he made in the regular season. To add to it, out of some sense of "loyalty", he calls back a player that he's waived only to have said player get claimed and the team is on the hook for half of said player's salary. And the idiot's response to it is "oh well, we took a chance at bringing a guy up. That's the way the rules work."

Honestly, there's a reason why this franchise is so dysfunctional. All these in house hires and all these former Flyers from the Broad Street era that are in management. I swear, it's like watching a southern inbred family trying to make sense of Jeopardy. I've never seen anything like it. My only hope is that if the Flyers fail to make the post season or they're one and done, Snider does the right thing and fires Holmgren. You'd think people would learn from Holmgren's track record that he is not a good GM. He killed the Hartford franchise and he's doing the same here. Makes me so God damn mad.

Get rid of the idiot in the GM's chair and bring in someone who has worked for a strong organization and knows what it takes to win. Give me a David Conte from New Jersey or Jim Nill from Detroit any day of the week. I bet they get this mess straightened out.

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02-04-2010, 12:20 AM
  #650
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The PP went 0 for 4 today and I'm pretty sure it hasn't been producing for the last few games.

I never said that the rut from hell was a good indicator of how this team can or will perform, but it sure as hell helps to prove the consistency issue.
Not really...they were consistently awful for an extended period of time. Isn't like they were inconsistent for those 15 games.

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