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its torts. im tellin ya its torts....

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Old
02-03-2010, 12:08 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by #97 View Post
Gotta agree, to put Jokinen on the point wasn't really smart. Unnecessary risk.
To put him on the point in a new system where hasnt even had a practice with the team....was STUPID. Forget drury on the point. Jokinen shouldnt have been on the point.

EC shouldve been with Gabby.

And Lisin shouldve been in the lineup against a fast kings team. Its not like Lisin doesnt take the body. And its not like Voros ever does anything worthwhile.

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02-03-2010, 12:11 PM
  #77
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I KNEW the Torts bashing would start after last nights game especially because his 5 forward PP unit was controversial. Here's my $0.02 ....

1) Let's start off with, the coach is not the problem with this team. We had Renney last year and had similar results: Dismal powerplay, good defensively, dismal offensively, frequently shutout or limited to 2 goals or less. When you replace a coach and get the same results from a different coach, it isn't a coaching problem. It's a talent & GM problem, regardless of how much you don't like Torts...So getting rid of him will not change a thing.

2) The 5 forward PP unit last night I disagreed with like many people here. But let's face it, Torts was grasping at straws trying to get something going. The PP is so bad, that his thought process was if I put 5 forwards on, maybe they'll get a goal and get the gorilla off the back. Was it a bad choice? Absolutely. You could see a shorty coming a mile away. But was it unreasonable? Not really. We'd be singing a different tune if that 5-forward unit scored a PPG. Hindsight is always 20/20.

3) Juggling of the lines. Torts has always been known for riding the guys who are playing well and frequently changing the lines almost on a shift-by-shift basis to try and get something going. Especially when you are starved offensively. Do I agree? Not always. I am all about developing chemistry but with the race in the East so tight, you cannot waste time being patient hoping some chemistry develops and not altering lines on a whim. Developing good lines has to be done in the off-season and its hard to do when the personnel turnover is so high every year.

4) Comments to the media: We all knew Torts was like sandpaper to the media and I'd say 90% of us were excited to have a coach who didn't give boring, cliche postgame pressers like Renney did. I respect Torts keeping certain things private that are between coach and player and I do criticize him sometimes for not justifying himself on other things. But that's what you get with a fiery coach like JT -- you can't have it both ways.

5) Player accountability: A lot of us are disappointed that you don't see the veteran bums benched more often when they screw up and more frequently see the kids getting punished. I don't know why a lot of you are so obsessed with Lisin -- the kid is fast... that's it. He doesn't have a good shot, he falls down all the time trying dumb dekes, and frequently turns the puck over. Voros is gritty and provides some size on the 4th line and I rather Voros be in the lineup than Lisin honestly.

As for Redden/Rozi -- you can't shoot yourself in the foot to try and make a statement. Torts wants to give the team the best chance to win and the best chance to win sometimes is not benching your veteran defenseman and handicapping the team to 5 D-men. You can't bench chris drury because, 1 he's the captain and that sends some bad messages to the rest of the team, and plus he is crucial to win faceoffs which thankfully he's still good at doing. Torts is a guy who develops kids well (we saw that in Tampa) and his way of doing that sometimes is punishing or benching kids for mistakes in lieu of vets who probably aren't going to learn anymore anyway.

All in all, please stop bashing Torts because there are so many things wrong with this team and coaching is one of the least of our concerns right now. check out our roster and GM first.

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02-03-2010, 12:16 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Nyrvana View Post
Have some patience, if anybody thought we were stanley cup contenders this year, you're crazy. This was clearly a rebuilding year. And if Sather can trade some salary and sign Kovalchuk, then in two years we should be a very good hockey team. With McDonagh, and Sangs, and Grachev, and maybe Stepan. Relax.

I really hope you're right but I can't pencil guys like that in until they've proven something... not one of those guys has done anything, even in the minors to point to the fact that they'd be integral cogs on an NHL squad. I REALLY want them to be... I do... but waiting for them to save our arses maybe asking too much. Sangs is the closest and he didn't do a thing when called up.

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02-03-2010, 12:16 PM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYRfan89 View Post
I KNEW the Torts bashing would start after last nights game especially because his 5 forward PP unit was controversial. Here's my $0.02 ....

1) Let's start off with, the coach is not the problem with this team. [snip]
Good post sir. I agree with you.

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02-03-2010, 12:23 PM
  #80
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NYRfan 89, I agree with alot of what you said except these points:

1)Wait a sec. Similar resutlts? Before those players quit on him, Renney had the team well over .500 hockey and in the playoffs. Not exactly the same situation we find ourselves in now, and with Gaborik instead of Gomez mind you.

2 & 3 agreed.

4) Torts is more of an entertainer than Renney i'll giva ya that, but Renney always gave his honest opinion and account of how he perceived the games/team. He didnt back away from things like Torts has done, lets be honest here.

5) Benching players should be a last resort and we've seen the result of both playing good cop/bad cop, the talent doesn't change. Guys are making alot of money, doesnt mean they can put on a red cape and big letter "S" and turn into a different player.

Torts is getting bashed cause we were promised a total turnaround from Renney hockey. The truth is the new boss is the same as the old boss - doing the best he can with the mediocrity he was given.

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02-03-2010, 12:23 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Panfork View Post
Then why did he sign Kotalik for 3 years with a NMC?
I don't think anybody thought Kotalik would be as bad as he was. Clearly they signed him for some power play help. Rebuilding doesn't mean lets tank, it means lets bring up some rookies and let them play. Expectations clearly weren't high, there were too many question marks

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rebuilding year with high-paid garbage....yeah no. The team is a joke
Gilroy, Del Zotto, Anisimov ... 3 rookies that have been getting a lot of playing time. If sather could trade his high paid garbage I'm sure he would. Just because people are highly paid doesn't mean that it's not a rebuilding year.

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02-03-2010, 12:25 PM
  #82
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1. He put Jokinen in a situation where he would likely find success. The guy reads he's getting traded, got shutout the night before on a different team, got traded then travels from calgary to la to play with a group of guys he's never played with in a system that he has never played in. Makes sense to me to put him on the first line. We don't want Jokinen coming it after all that and getting put on a second or third line thats going to coast through the game looking absolutely lost.

2. Lisin makes no difference, sorry. LA can skate. Lisin can skate too, but thats it. Skating doesn't mean anything when you can't keep the puck once you're near the net. Sure, he can keep up with the Kings better than Voros, but he can't do anything once he's beaten them. If we're looking to Lisin because we need skill and scoring ability, we're lost.

3. That was a horrible decision, I agree with you there. As others have said though, this PP is horrendous, so it makes sense to try to shake it up, although putting 5 forwards out and Dru and Jokinen on the point is stupid.

4. I agree with you here partially. The line juggling is out of hand sometimes, but again, this team has no chemistry to destroy. We've seen the same people with one another a lot this season whether or not it was broken up in between and the only pairs that seem to have anything at all together are prospal - gaborik and christensen - gaborik. Should the top line be prospal - christen - gabby or dubi - christensen - gabby? Yeah, I'd say so. Is that whats holding this team back? No. Far from it. Gaborik is the only one putting up goals no matter how you slice it and no matter who his linemates are.

Torts makes questionable decisions sometimes, no doubt, but I can't look at the past few seasons seeing the exact same problems plague this team with two different coaches and think its either of their fault. I've yet to see a fire torts argument that accounts for this. In my opinion, this roster is the problem, defense especially. I get that MDZ and Gilroy are rookies, and I'm willing to give them time to grow and a few get out of jail free cards, but we will never, EVER be successful paying rozy, redden the money that we do. They aren't great defenders and they can't score to save their lives. If we could use that money, and the drury money also, to get secondary scoring, it wouldn't be the end of the world when our rookie dmen get beat. We wouldn't all think "oh god, we're done" when we go down by two with 40 minutes of hockey left.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr. View Post
You make it sound as if Tortorella has/had zero input on signings like Kotalik or acquisitions like Jokinen. He's the one that found a way to hate Kotalik, he's the one that ran him out of town, he's the one that begged Sather to get rid of him for a different player and he's the one that decided to take the point men he does have off the power play and put Jokinen there.
Found a way to hate him? Ran Kotalik out of town? Seriously? If Henrik wasn't the player he is Kotalik would have caused about a dozen shorthanded goals against in the handful of games he's played in. Nobody ran Kotalik out of town but himself. He is a terrible, terrible player. Yeah, he was good for a month, but that doesn't matter now. If he isn't going to care or try or play any sort of defense at all he should go.

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02-03-2010, 01:16 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by haveandare View Post
Found a way to hate him? Ran Kotalik out of town? Seriously? If Henrik wasn't the player he is Kotalik would have caused about a dozen shorthanded goals against in the handful of games he's played in. Nobody ran Kotalik out of town but himself. He is a terrible, terrible player. Yeah, he was good for a month, but that doesn't matter now. If he isn't going to care or try or play any sort of defense at all he should go.
He's not a terrible player. He's just a one trick pony.

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02-03-2010, 01:28 PM
  #84
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You guys are all jumping down Torts throat about putting Jokinen on the point when HE said he feels very comfortable on the point and had his best years in Florida on the point on the PP.

People say it's a new system for him like this is football and he's a QB. There isn't a huge learning curve for systems in hockey, at least not for someone that's been in the league AND played for as many different coaches/teams Jokinen has. There are only so many variations of powerplay systems you can run in this league. Most "systems" are pretty similar to others.

At the end of the day you have to go out there and play.



And to say it's Torts, I don't know. MAYBE he's lost these guys and they don't want to play for him, but everything he does seems to just be an attempt to spark this team. MAYBE it's him, but I don't know, the entire team plays like they all pop xanax right before they go out on the ice.

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02-03-2010, 01:28 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
hes the problem.

exhibit 1

last night this dope breaks up the line that was clicking when gabs goes off for the hatty. brilliant move torts. he said so himself after the game, ec plays well with gaby. ec has skills and hes unselfish and is always looking for gaby and he can skate with that line. so what does the dope do, he breaks them up. perfect.

Yes, Christensen was playing well with Gaborik but his game is very limited. He is not a #1C, he is a plug at the moment. This team just got a Center that's about a PPG player. If you thought he wouldn't try OJ with Gaborik at the start, you are kidding youself

exhibit 2.

the kings can flat out skate. he knows this (or maybe he doesnt ) either way, he puts voros in and takes lisin out. brilliant. im sure hell have voros play against the caps but then throw lisin back in aginst the devs. he makes stupid decisions consistently.

I'm sorry to break it to you but Lisin or Voros, nothing would have changed.

exhibit 3

he not only has 5 forwards on the pp but he has chris freekin drury on the point. wtf. who among us didnt go.... huh... what the ef re you doing torts ? coach clown just hasnt got it. hes flat out is killing this team right now.

I don't agree with 5 forwards, but if you are playing 4 forwards and 1 Dman, he's putting a forward back there that can atleast cover up on D if needed. That said, Drury does not have that shot anymore to make himself useful at the point (offensively).

exhibit 4

his constant line changing is killing any chance to develop chemistry. hes all over the place, he appears desperate. his in game decisions suck. hes brutal with over line changing. he screws up any chance for team chemistry by never having players develop anything. if it works, he changes is. if it doesnt work, he changes it. he just needs to stop making changes. hes killing this team from within.

When this team is not scoring outside of Gaborik, there isn't much chemistry to kill. This team is lacking certain players. There are too many plugs. Too many role-players. Sure he can leave the lines alone, but for how long? I would say constant shut-outs are a sign of changing the lines.

look, i wanted him here. ill admit it but now his act has worn thin. hes rude, condesending, beligerent, defensive and clueless.

im officially not a torts guy.

hes hurting this team right now and thats unacceptable.

fire torts
See answers in Bold.

How many coaches can a team go through before people realize the players are also responsible. The GM is responsible for putting together either a team or a bunch of random players.

There is one person on this team that can create on his own. Gaborik. He doesn't need Christensen with him. Other than setting up Gaborik, what makes him a first line Center? Sure, I like that fact that they play well together, but it's just another situation of plugging a player up there because we have noone else. Putting Hossa with Jagr sound familiar? How long until we all turned against that?

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02-03-2010, 01:29 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr. View Post
He's not a terrible player. He's just a one trick pony.
What trick was that? Turnovers at the blue line leading to short handed goals?

Awesome trick.

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Old
02-03-2010, 01:30 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jagr68NYR94Leetch View Post
To put him on the point in a new system where hasnt even had a practice with the team....was STUPID. Forget drury on the point. Jokinen shouldnt have been on the point.

EC shouldve been with Gabby.

And Lisin shouldve been in the lineup against a fast kings team. Its not like Lisin doesnt take the body. And its not like Voros ever does anything worthwhile.
Lisin bounces off people the minute he tries to take the body. I like that he actually tries to play the way he should with his size, but he's the smallest 6'2" 200 lb guy I've ever seen.

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02-03-2010, 01:33 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by NYRfan89 View Post
1) Let's start off with, the coach is not the problem with this team. We had Renney last year and had similar results: Dismal powerplay, good defensively, dismal offensively, frequently shutout or limited to 2 goals or less. When you replace a coach and get the same results from a different coach, it isn't a coaching problem. It's a talent & GM problem, regardless of how much you don't like Torts...So getting rid of him will not change a thing.
Dismal offensively, both last year and this year, yes. Of course, last year Renney didn't have the luxury of playing with a (near) 50-goal scorer.

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Originally Posted by NYRfan89 View Post
2) The 5 forward PP unit last night I disagreed with like many people here. But let's face it, Torts was grasping at straws trying to get something going. The PP is so bad, that his thought process was if I put 5 forwards on, maybe they'll get a goal and get the gorilla off the back. Was it a bad choice? Absolutely. You could see a shorty coming a mile away. But was it unreasonable? Not really. We'd be singing a different tune if that 5-forward unit scored a PPG. Hindsight is always 20/20.
Re first bolded comment... That's not an excuse for making bad decisions.

Re second bolded comment... In this case, foresight was 20/20 as well -- even Sam Rosen recognized the risk immediately.

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Originally Posted by NYRfan89 View Post
3) Juggling of the lines. Torts has always been known for riding the guys who are playing well and frequently changing the lines almost on a shift-by-shift basis to try and get something going. Especially when you are starved offensively. Do I agree? Not always. I am all about developing chemistry but with the race in the East so tight, you cannot waste time being patient hoping some chemistry develops and not altering lines on a whim. Developing good lines has to be done in the off-season and its hard to do when the personnel turnover is so high every year.
Tortorella had all season to try to develop chemistry, when running out of time wasn't an issue. Now time is running out and we realize he hasn't kept anyone together for more than the blink of an eye and it's painfully apparent that we're disjointed and lack chemistry.

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Originally Posted by NYRfan89 View Post
All in all, please stop bashing Torts because there are so many things wrong with this team and coaching is one of the least of our concerns right now. check out our roster and GM first.
Having a bad GM and a flawed roster doesn't mean that the coach is incapable of doing his job well and getting the best out of what he has. There are less talented teams out there who have more points in the standing, playing with spirit, chemistry and consistency.


Last edited by Kind of Blue: 02-03-2010 at 01:45 PM.
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02-03-2010, 01:37 PM
  #89
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If Torts is the problem then why do I have Renney-era flashbacks every time I watch this season's team?
The Rangers are failing because of the same flaws that killed Tom Renney's group. Maybe slightly more undisciplined on the defensive end.

Different coach, same results.

It's the architect of the team who is the problem.

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02-03-2010, 01:38 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Kind of Blue View Post
Dismal offensively, both last year and this year, yes. Of course, last year Renney didn't have the luxury of playing with a (near) 50-goal scorer.


Re first bolded comment... That's not an excuse for making bad decisions.

Re second bolded comment... In this case, foresight was 20/20 as well -- even Sam Rosen recognized the risk immediately.


Tortorella had all season to try to develop chemistry, when running out of time wasn't an issue. Now time is running out and we realize he hasn't kept anyone together for more than the blink of an eye and it's painful apparent that we're disjointed and lack chemistry.


Having a bad GM and a flawed roster doesn't mean that the coach is incapable of doing his job well and getting the best out of what he has. There are less talented teams out there who have more points in the standing, playing with spirit, chemistry and consistency.
Excellent points all around. And your last point, in bold, pretty much sums up my dissatisfaction.

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02-03-2010, 01:38 PM
  #91
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John Tortorella is barely an average coach who thinks he is the greatest.

The guy shows very little respect for anyone, especially the media.

He is one of the biggest morons you will ever see in sports.

On top of his terrible attitude he is not a very good coach.

If anyone in NY cared about hockey he would have be fired or under extreme scrutiny for his actions.

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02-03-2010, 01:42 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Nick00 View Post
If Torts is the problem then why do I have Renney-era flashbacks every time I watch this season's team?
The Rangers are failing because of the same flaws that killed Tom Renney's group. Maybe slightly more undisciplined on the defensive end.

Different coach, same results.

It's the architect of the team who is the problem.
We're on pace for 82 points. Since the lockout, the lowest point total we recorded was 94. It's not the same results. It's worse results. In a year where the East sucks, no less.

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02-03-2010, 01:49 PM
  #93
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I am not a fire Torts guy but I did come away lastnight scratching my head on some of his moves. Not the first time this season either.

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02-03-2010, 01:49 PM
  #94
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Exactly. There is definitely some vailidity in the OP, but we are asking this guy to make chicken soup out of chicken s***.

The roster has more third and fourth liners than you will ever see assembled in one place. It defies belief.
Considering we're "still in it" and could grab a 6-8 spot for the playoffs, you have to consider that without the CONSTANT line changing and the ridiculous decisions like 5 forwards on the PP last night (which arguably helped cost us 2 points), this team gets more production from their forwards with some set lines and chemistry, jumps up a couple spots in the standings and is a solid #6 spot.

Roster still has giant holes and problems and I don't see us being able to compete in the playoffs but I don't think there would be a question about us just getting into the post-season.

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02-03-2010, 01:52 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by nyr2k2 View Post
We're on pace for 82 points. Since the lockout, the lowest point total we recorded was 94. It's not the same results. It's worse results. In a year where the East sucks, no less.
Thank you for doing the math. It's maddening when people keep saying "same results."

And by the way...

For the people who keep blaming the roster, it's not like Tortorella didn't have input on the roster. This week I've read comments on this board that people wish we still had Mara; Tortorella didn't want him. I've read throughout the year comments re Betts and Orr; Torts wanted Brashear. Just saying. He doesn't get a complete pass on the roster.

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02-03-2010, 01:54 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Kind of Blue View Post
Thank you for doing the math. It's maddening when people keep saying "same results."

And by the way...

For the people who keep blaming the roster, it's not like Tortorella didn't have input on the roster. This week I've read comments on this board that people wish we still had Mara; Tortorella didn't want him. I've read throughout the year comments re Betts and Orr; Torts wanted Brashear. Just saying. He doesn't get a complete pass on the roster.
I would imagine it was Torts that didn't want Zherdev as well.

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02-03-2010, 01:56 PM
  #97
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I would imagine it was Torts that didn't want Zherdev as well.
Same here. (I just didn't mention it because I never read anything to suggest that)

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02-03-2010, 02:00 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Kind of Blue View Post
Thank you for doing the math. It's maddening when people keep saying "same results."

And by the way...

For the people who keep blaming the roster, it's not like Tortorella didn't have input on the roster. This week I've read comments on this board that people wish we still had Mara; Tortorella didn't want him. I've read throughout the year comments re Betts and Orr; Torts wanted Brashear. Just saying. He doesn't get a complete pass on the roster.
We're also on pace to score fewer goals, allow more goals and finish with a worse goal differential than any season since the lockout. Again, not the same results.

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02-03-2010, 02:08 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by nyr2k2 View Post
We're on pace for 82 points. Since the lockout, the lowest point total we recorded was 94. It's not the same results. It's worse results. In a year where the East sucks, no less.
I meant that the day to day, on ice product is virtually the same.
This team is failing on the same flaws as last year, nothing has changed, nothing has been properly addressed.
It's true that they aren't winning as many games this season, but my point is that changing the coach isn't going to fix a poorly constructed team.

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02-03-2010, 02:13 PM
  #100
Kind of Blue
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick00 View Post
I meant that the day to day, on ice product is virtually the same.
This team is failing on the same flaws as last year, nothing has changed, nothing has been properly addressed.
It's true that they aren't winning as many games this season, but my point is that changing the coach isn't going to fix a poorly constructed team.
That's simply too superficial as an analysis. You have to look deeper. nyr2k2's posts are a place to start.

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