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its torts. im tellin ya its torts....

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Old
02-03-2010, 03:54 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Kind of Blue View Post
That's simply too superficial as an analysis. You have to look deeper. nyr2k2's posts are a place to start.
Wasn't really meant to be analysis, since this kind of thing as been beaten to death and I don't have the time to write 8 paragraphs about why this team is in bad shape.

I'm pretty sure I'm understanding nyr2k2's posts...
Up until Renney was fired, he was able to get more out of his players than Torts is.
He had built a system to maximize the team's success given what he had at his disposal.
I get it.

The era of Tom Renney is done, the players gave up on him for whatever reason and a change needed to be made.
What does this have to do with firing Tortorella?
Even with the greatest coaching staff in the world this team is still mediocre at best.

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02-03-2010, 04:01 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by nyr2k2 View Post
We're also on pace to score fewer goals, allow more goals and finish with a worse goal differential than any season since the lockout. Again, not the same results.
After 57 games:
'09-'10 25-25-7 57 points (2 SO/OT wins) - 142 goals scored - 153 against (Differential of -11)
'08-'09 30-21-6 66 points (12 SO/OT wins) - 134 goals scored - 157 against (Differential of -23)
'07-'08 27-24-6 60 points (7 SO/OT wins) - 136 goals scored - 139 against(Differential of -3)

The only difference, if any, is that the other teams were better in the extra period and the shootout.

Business as usual.

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02-03-2010, 04:42 PM
  #103
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funny, McRanger - in regulation, this team is pretty much where they were at last season...if history repeats itself, the voice of the topic in this thread will be heard...

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02-03-2010, 05:50 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Kind of Blue View Post
Dismal offensively, both last year and this year, yes. Of course, last year Renney didn't have the luxury of playing with a (near) 50-goal scorer.


Re first bolded comment... That's not an excuse for making bad decisions.

Re second bolded comment... In this case, foresight was 20/20 as well -- even Sam Rosen recognized the risk immediately.


Tortorella had all season to try to develop chemistry, when running out of time wasn't an issue. Now time is running out and we realize he hasn't kept anyone together for more than the blink of an eye and it's painfully apparent that we're disjointed and lack chemistry.


Having a bad GM and a flawed roster doesn't mean that the coach is incapable of doing his job well and getting the best out of what he has. There are less talented teams out there who have more points in the standing, playing with spirit, chemistry and consistency.
1) No, Renney didn't have the luxury of a 50-goal scorer, but he had a 1st/2nd line playmaker in Gomez (don't confuse facts with me liking him), as well as a better performing Chris Drury and Nikolai Zherdev to plug some of the scoring holes up. Gaborik can't do it all, just like Lundqvist can't do it all. It goes both ways here. Oh and for the record, I was opposed to scapegoating Renney for the teams problems that clearly Sather created.

2) Re:re: first (and second) bolded comment - No it isn't excuse. But I don't blame the coach for trying something risky to get something going. It was a big risk, and it backfired. But you failed to comment on how we'd be singing a different tune if those 5 forwards scored a PPG instead of giving up a SHG. It was unfortunate that that goal probably cost us the game but it could've easily gone the other way as well. That PP was a turning point either in our's or LA's favor. I didn't need Sam to tell me that was a risky move, I told you I could see a SHG coming a mile away if they didn't score. In fact, I said to myself we're either gonna get a PPG or they will get a shorty on this play.

3) Developing chemistry. I think you underestimate how complicated line chemistry is, no offense at all. This team started out playing Torts' system and the lines were clicking real well. Until other teams scouted us, saw what our weakness was, and exploited the crap out of that. Torts had to reinstall a new system that was more defense oriented ON THE FLY...middle of the season... and the fact that such a patchwork job has worked for us is remarkable to the coaching staff. This isn't the style of coaching Torts likes, or is known for. Also, Torts left the line with Prospal, Dubinsky and Gaborik for a very long time when there was chemistry. The line eventually got stale (probably due to scouting) and then Prospal and Dubi got hurt. It's mostly the 2nd and 3rd lines that get juggled anyway and nothing seems to have developed there because of lack of talent.

One thing that is beneficial about the line juggling is that the opposing team doesn't really know what to expect -- watching video of how our lines play, with exception of the gabby line, is almost useless since it's never the same. Again, don't mistake me defending Torts for approving of this, but it hasn't exactly worked either way.

4) Having a bad GM and a flawed roster has very much to do with how a coach performs. You think Dan Bylsma all of a sudden comes into the NHL and is immediately an awesome coach because the Pens won the cup? No way. I think almost any coach other than Michel Therrien could've coached the pens to the cup with the talent they have and how well their GM Sherro(sp?) runs operations. You make the best with the tools your given, yes, but it's hard to build a boat with toothpicks and Elmer's glue. I'd say Torts has done pretty well all things considered. Especially with the anvils of Redden, Drury and Rozival pulling the team down.

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Old
02-03-2010, 06:32 PM
  #105
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to make matters worse... we have a player wearing #8 again!

This team just has no hope obviously... it was one game with OJ who knows what can happen

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02-03-2010, 06:40 PM
  #106
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Ken Hitchcock was just fired

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02-03-2010, 07:06 PM
  #107
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NYRfan..

on point #3, you're basically calling Torts a bad coach. If all people have to do is scout the Rangers to stop them and then dictate how Torts manages a game, then he's being outcoached by the rest of the league.

As with every season, medicore to bad teams can often start out playing well. It's the good teams, however, then end well. Seems that many good teams start to emerge around December, a month it seems as though the Rangers always falter. That does have to do with chemistry, as perhaps some good teams are integrating new players or systems.

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02-03-2010, 07:20 PM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McRanger View Post
After 57 games:
'09-'10 25-25-7 57 points (2 SO/OT wins) - 142 goals scored - 153 against (Differential of -11)
'08-'09 30-21-6 66 points (12 SO/OT wins) - 134 goals scored - 157 against (Differential of -23)
'07-'08 27-24-6 60 points (7 SO/OT wins) - 136 goals scored - 139 against(Differential of -3)

The only difference, if any, is that the other teams were better in the extra period and the shootout.

Business as usual.
Are we getting to OT as often as we were?

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02-03-2010, 07:22 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by RangerFan10 View Post
Lisin bounces off people the minute he tries to take the body. I like that he actually tries to play the way he should with his size, but he's the smallest 6'2" 200 lb guy I've ever seen.
Okay and Voros is a weak skater, who cant line up the big hits...plus when he fights he has no balance....so the point is moot. Rather have the faster Lisin who is more likely to score than voros.

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02-03-2010, 07:34 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by nyr2k2 View Post
Are we getting to OT as often as we were?
I don't think we're getting to OT as much as we used to, but this team has 5 more regulation wins than last year's team did at this time.

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02-03-2010, 07:45 PM
  #111
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I don't think we're getting to OT as much as we used to, but this team has 5 more regulation wins than last year's team did at this time.
Well, at least in terms of this year and last year, I guess the results are the same, or slightly better even.

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02-03-2010, 08:23 PM
  #112
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Tortorella really annoys me. I often can't stand the sight of him. I think he is/was very overated by about half the fan-base.

but is he the issue with this team? please.

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02-03-2010, 08:52 PM
  #113
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I've been holding some of the Torts critcism in, but after last night, with changes i hnestly question him for than before. He seems to need to be the center of attention or else why would he constantly be switching lines. The guy has not kept the lines the same 1 freakin game this season. I am not saying that will be the savoir but honestly it is a real kick in the ass, to watch as he has Dubi, Cally, Avery which worked and would work, to switch them after a good shift. Also changing of the first line does nto makes sense either. For one you have jok, if that line played well, you keep the first line and make a change only if need, be especially Jok who was coming of a game the night earlier to put him in that situation is tough.

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02-03-2010, 09:30 PM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
on point #3, you're basically calling Torts a bad coach. If all people have to do is scout the Rangers to stop them and then dictate how Torts manages a game, then he's being outcoached by the rest of the league.

As with every season, medicore to bad teams can often start out playing well. It's the good teams, however, then end well. Seems that many good teams start to emerge around December, a month it seems as though the Rangers always falter. That does have to do with chemistry, as perhaps some good teams are integrating new players or systems.
No, the system didn't work because the roster doesn't have the talent to make it work. Put Tort's system in Chicago, Pittsburgh, San Jose, Washington? Home run.

As others have said Torts was probably the wrong choice for a team that needs rebuilding. He is a finisher... you take Torts when your team is ready to contend for a cup. Sadly, this team is at least 2 years from seriously contending.

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Old
02-03-2010, 10:00 PM
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jagr68NYR94Leetch View Post
Okay and Voros is a weak skater, who cant line up the big hits...plus when he fights he has no balance....so the point is moot. Rather have the faster Lisin who is more likely to score than voros.
Lisin's just as unlikely, if not more unlikely to score if Boyle and Avery/Prust are his linemates. Voro's made strides in becoming a better fighter.

And they both skate themselves way out of position on any given play.

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02-03-2010, 10:08 PM
  #116
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Last year it was Renney's fault. Now it's Tort's fault. Now what do they have in common? Let me see. Oh, yeah. Who do they get their players from?

I remember Fly, and some others, telling us last year that Torts will turn this franchise around from the horrific Renney, this year. So far, it ain't coming true.

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02-03-2010, 10:11 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
hes the problem.

exhibit 2.

the kings can flat out skate. he knows this (or maybe he doesnt ) either way, he puts voros in and takes lisin out. brilliant. im sure hell have voros play against the caps but then throw lisin back in aginst the devs. he makes stupid decisions consistently.
And for the 100th time we learn from crossbar that if only we played Lisin 60 minutes a game, things would be so much sunnier in Rangerland. It's always structured a bit differently but the excuse train always stops at every station.

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02-03-2010, 10:36 PM
  #118
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I completely blame him for the 5 forwards situation.

That is a risk you take when you're DOWN a goal or more. NOT something you do in a tied game.

How do you take a power play risk like that when you cannot afford to give up a goal?

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02-04-2010, 07:44 AM
  #119
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Where is the "like" button? We get Jokinen and I'm thinking, alright, finally a big body for in front of the net on the PP... Then I look and say "WTF is he doing out by the blueline?" I just went to bed.

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02-04-2010, 03:34 PM
  #120
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Where is the "like" button? We get Jokinen and I'm thinking, alright, finally a big body for in front of the net on the PP... Then I look and say "WTF is he doing out by the blueline?" I just went to bed.
I agree 1,000%.

They said they "simplified" the PP. Simplifying is you take your two best shooters (DZ + Gabby) put them on the point and blast away at the net. Take your two biggest bodies (Jokinen + Boyle) and throw them in front of the net to get the rebounds. This is as simple as it can get. Ya don't like Boyle up there? Fine someone else but the idea is simple enough, yet 20 million bucks worth of talent and coaching can't figure this out?

Does this team even know what a rebound chance is? Or they always wanna try and beat the goalie 1 on 1

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02-04-2010, 04:19 PM
  #121
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I completely blame him for the 5 forwards situation.

That is a risk you take when you're DOWN a goal or more. NOT something you do in a tied game.

How do you take a power play risk like that when you cannot afford to give up a goal?
What risk? Those on the points were not rookies, they were as experienced playing the point as anyone in NHL. They both played the breakaway correctly no matter what our genius announcer thought. The only risk was that Lundqvist will go Fedorov again, i.e. would let a top glove one in. And he did.

I am not Torts admirer, but I cannot blame him for taking a risk there. There was not much of it. We could score a PPG and everyone would declare him a savior.

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02-04-2010, 04:39 PM
  #122
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What risk? Those on the points were not rookies, they were as experienced playing the point as anyone in NHL. They both played the breakaway correctly no matter what our genius announcer thought. The only risk was that Lundqvist will go Fedorov again, i.e. would let a top glove one in. And he did.

I am not Torts admirer, but I cannot blame him for taking a risk there. There was not much of it. We could score a PPG and everyone would declare him a savior.
Agreed, you're on the PP to score goals, not defend.

They werent getting through the Kings defense at all, so the chances of scoring even strength werent very high as we saw the rest of the game.

And what has any of the defenseman brought to the PP lately? Nothing. Drury on the point is another story all together though, but still he's very good defensively. Its about all he does well.

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02-04-2010, 04:51 PM
  #123
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No, the system didn't work because the roster doesn't have the talent to make it work. Put Tort's system in Chicago, Pittsburgh, San Jose, Washington? Home run.
Your statement is the best indictment of Torts posted. A good coach adjusts to his personnel. A bad coach expects his personnel to adjust to his system, whether it can work or not.

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02-04-2010, 05:29 PM
  #124
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Okay and Voros is a weak skater, who cant line up the big hits...plus when he fights he has no balance....so the point is moot. Rather have the faster Lisin who is more likely to score than voros.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerFan10 View Post
Lisin's just as unlikely, if not more unlikely to score if Boyle and Avery/Prust are his linemates. Voro's made strides in becoming a better fighter.

And they both skate themselves way out of position on any given play.
I think we're in a pretty sad state of affairs when we start disputing What roster is going to make us win games? And the dispute is between Aaron Voros and Enver Lisin.

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Originally Posted by chosen View Post
Last year it was Renney's fault. Now it's Tort's fault. Now what do they have in common? Let me see. Oh, yeah. Who do they get their players from?

I remember Fly, and some others, telling us last year that Torts will turn this franchise around from the horrific Renney, this year. So far, it ain't coming true.
I agree 100% Ranger fans are bi-polar, irrational, teen-angst, fan bois with zero patience and think that if we have X as a coach or Y player, we're a automatic cup contender.

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And for the 100th time we learn from crossbar that if only we played Lisin 60 minutes a game, things would be so much sunnier in Rangerland. It's always structured a bit differently but the excuse train always stops at every station.
Enver Lisin being our savior is more laughable than Petr Prucha being a major factor on this team. Again, if I have to rely on Enver Lisin to get this team in the playoffs...

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Your statement is the best indictment of Torts posted. A good coach adjusts to his personnel. A bad coach expects his personnel to adjust to his system, whether it can work or not.

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02-04-2010, 05:51 PM
  #125
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Your statement is the best indictment of Torts posted. A good coach adjusts to his personnel. A bad coach expects his personnel to adjust to his system, whether it can work or not.
NEWSFLASH for all you blame/fire Torts 'tards! He has adjusted his system to fit these players.

We play a much more conservative system then we did in the start of the year when he, along with most posters here but not all, thought we had the horses to run that race. The current system is not his preferred style of play. We play a much more conservative system than he would prefer which is leading to the Renney era comparisons because the team makeup isn't all that different, but the man in charge around here is the same!

When he realized we didn't have the personnel he cut back, we have basically one man who creates offense and scores goals along with a bunch of pluggers, vastly overpaid and outdated vets and an insanely young defense.

This is why you rarely see d-men pinching anymore because these guys are too slow at reading when to pinch and when not to, Torts never told them not to play any defense and just push the offense only, its the players who were poor at executing it, thus you rarely see it now and when you do it usually backfires but his system has changed.

Also, Torts preaches forecheck, pressure, going to the net but we don't have players who are known to play that way. Renney had the same problems, in fact these things have long been problems for this team, its nothing new, Hockey is different here remember

Quit whining about how he suggested this guy and he brought in that guy. Oh no, Orr, Betts and Sjostrom are gone, that's probably why we can't score :

So what if he wanted more toughness and actual hockey ability in Brashear or someone who can fire the pill from the point like Kotalik, let us not pretend that we had all this money to be spending on better, higher quality players in the first place. Everyone hated Gomez and Zherdev was a highly skilled floater who most everyone wanted gone anyway.Sure maybe he had input but Sather signs the contracts and maybe those suggestions were made because they were the best of the options presented to Torts given our salary cap. Sometimes you just take what you can get yet this is something posters never bring up and by the way if you are gonna blame him for those signings then give him the credit of bringing Gabby, Prospal and to a lesser extent Gilroy here too cause it goes both ways or at least it should!

The guy is a Stanley Cup winner and an Olympic coach for a reason and nothing all the armchair coaches of HF say can change those facts,acting like anyone here is qualified to be calling this man an idiot and saying he has no clue about hockey etc. etc. is just absurd!

So lets come back down to reality, realize that we are rangers fans and accept the mediocrity and frustration that comes with it, one cup in 70 years, get used to it!


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