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Old
02-03-2010, 03:44 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by MTLPacman67 View Post
Habs have no interest in Steve Ott.

We're not giving up Halak for an expiring contract.
Maybe, maybe not, you don't know that for sure. Maybe Gainey is a big fan of Ott, no one really knows.

Your 2nd point is moot. GM's talk to agents all the time. If Gainey is interested in Ott, he will(should) do his due diligence and talk to Ott's agent about the possibility of re-signing him. If he feels like he can easily re-sign him then it would make sense. If he gets the feeling that Ott is going to test the UFA market no matter what, then yes I agree he won't give up Halak.

I just don't think it makes any sense for Dallas to give up Benn straight up for Halak.

Stars could also use an offensive defenseman. The only way I see them trading Benn is if Montreal is offering Halak + Weber/Carle as that would fill 2 needs for the Stars. Even then I'm not sure they want to give Benn up.

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02-03-2010, 03:49 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by felixd View Post
Maybe, maybe not, you don't know that for sure. Maybe Gainey is a big fan of Ott, no one really knows.

Your 2nd point is moot. GM's talk to agents all the time. If Gainey is interested in Ott, he will(should) do his due diligence and talk to Ott's agent about the possibility of re-signing him. If he feels like he can easily re-sign him then it would make sense. If he gets the feeling that Ott is going to test the UFA market no matter what, then yes I agree he won't give up Halak.

I just don't think it makes any sense for Dallas to give up Benn straight up for Halak.

Stars could also use an offensive defenseman. The only way I see them trading Benn is if Montreal is offering Halak + Weber/Carle as that would fill 2 needs for the Stars. Even then I'm not sure they want to give Benn up.
If they're willing to do it for Weber/Carle, why not just recall Vishnevkiy instead?

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02-03-2010, 03:49 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
Something has happened to Turco's game in the last couple of years, it seems, I don't know what. But look at what Marty Turco meant to the Stars over the half dozen or so years previously. I like Neal and Benn both, Neal more than Benn. But I don't know what Stars fans are expecting of Benn, if they think he is likely to mean as much to their team as Turco did for a good stretch of years.
Honestly, he's probably the best prospect the Stars have drafted since Iginla in 1995. He's got a ridiculous wrist shot(that he is finally starting to use more), a good stickhandler, and is more than willing to throw his body around to create space/protect the puck. He's a guy that has a better than decent chance to turn into a mid 30's/40+ goal scorer in the next 5 years.

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Maybe it's semantics about what the word "fair" means. On the ice, the performance of your #1 goalie would seem to me to matter more than the performance of most top-6 wingers, save for that upper crust of perennial all-star wingers, which I'm not sure anybody is even projecting Benn as becoming here. On the ice, I think Halak fulfilling his potential as a Turco-calibre #1 goalie for half a dozen years is a greater return than Benn fulfilling his potential. So wouldn't it be "fair" for the Stars to take the player who will mean more to them?

Conversely, one may choose to go by the argument that you can have Schneider, Ellis, Lehtonen or whoever for a 2nd round pick, and that it's the market which defines "fair", not the player performances/upside/impact. And you think Schneider is going to live up to his AHL performances, and Lehtonen will be healthy, etc.

Either is a reasonable definition of fair. And it's reasonable for the Habs and Habs fans to pick the first definition, since we have no motivation to move Halak without that definition in place. And it's reasonable for the Stars and Stars fans to pick the second definition, why pay more than you have to.
I think you are absolutely spot on here. In the end, if Montreal and Dallas make a trade for Halak, it will be for more than just a 2nd rounder(I mentioned somethig like a 2nd, Chiasson, and either Brunnstrom or Niskanen), but less than Neal/Eriksson/Benn. Goalies very, very rarely have that kind of value.

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02-03-2010, 03:50 PM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by felixd View Post
Stars could also use an offensive defenseman. The only way I see them trading Benn is if Montreal is offering Halak + Weber/Carle as that would fill 2 needs for the Stars. Even then I'm not sure they want to give Benn up.
The Stars for some reason have Vishnevskiy still in the AHL. They can just recall him if they want to add a young offensive d-man.

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02-03-2010, 03:52 PM
  #80
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Did you guys watch Vishnevskiy play in Dallas this year? Clearly not ready yet for the NHL.

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02-03-2010, 03:53 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by felixd View Post
Stars could also use an offensive defenseman. The only way I see them trading Benn is if Montreal is offering Halak + Weber/Carle as that would fill 2 needs for the Stars. Even then I'm not sure they want to give Benn up.
I'm sure they *don't* want to give Benn up. But in all this hypothetical postulating by us as fans, I think they should ponder their realistic alternatives. Have their pro scouts evaluate Halak. Then make the call from there. If you really believe that Halak is going to be able to give you goaltending on the order of a Vokoun/Turco... that is, not necessarily perennial-Vezina candidate/elite superstar goaltending, but still very solid upper crust #1 calibre goaltending... for a number of years, then I think you just go ahead and make the trade. Because you simply cannot lose. Even if Benn lives up to his potential, he's not going to help your team more than having a really solid #1 goalie will. And none of your other alternative acquisitions is better than this either.

Conversely, if your pro scouts have some concerns about Halak fulfilling this level of performance, then you will have to weigh all the risk factors. If Schneider is cheaper, do you feel he has as much of a chance of emerging once he gets into the league? Do you trust the word of Lehtonen's doctor? Do you see somebody else hitting the UFA market or becoming available cheaply, do you think you can make do with good defensive play and some temporary reclamation patch job like Biron or whoever?

I personally think Halak is good enough to fit in the 1st category, and the Stars would end up looking like winners if they traded Benn for him. Even if Benn was as good as everybody thinks. But I'm not a pro scout.

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02-03-2010, 03:54 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by felixd View Post
Did you guys watch Vishnevskiy play in Dallas this year? Clearly not ready yet for the NHL.
If he isn't, Weber and Carle aren't either.

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02-03-2010, 03:56 PM
  #83
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If we trade with Dallas I hope Gainey doesn't drop the soap again.
Seriously! Dallas is still laughing over the Ribeiro-Ninimaa trade. Fool me once... Let's see if Gainey knows how the quote goes and proves he is smarter then G.W. Bush.

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02-03-2010, 03:56 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by felixd View Post
Did you guys watch Vishnevskiy play in Dallas this year? Clearly not ready yet for the NHL.
Alot of that is because the coaching staff basically reigned him in, had him play alot more conservatively than is his style of play.

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02-03-2010, 03:58 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
I'm sure they *don't* want to give Benn up. But in all this hypothetical postulating by us as fans, I think they should ponder their realistic alternatives. Have their pro scouts evaluate Halak. Then make the call from there. If you really believe that Halak is going to be able to give you goaltending on the order of a Vokoun/Turco... that is, not necessarily perennial-Vezina candidate/elite superstar goaltending, but still very solid upper crust #1 calibre goaltending... for a number of years, then I think you just go ahead and make the trade. Because you simply cannot lose. Even if Benn lives up to his potential, he's not going to help your team more than having a really solid #1 goalie will. And none of your other alternative acquisitions is better than this either.

Conversely, if your pro scouts have some concerns about Halak fulfilling this level of performance, then you will have to weigh all the risk factors. If Schneider is cheaper, do you feel he has as much of a chance of emerging once he gets into the league? Do you trust the word of Lehtonen's doctor? Do you see somebody else hitting the UFA market or becoming available cheaply, do you think you can make do with good defensive play and some temporary reclamation patch job like Biron or whoever?

I personally think Halak is good enough to fit in the 1st category, and the Stars would end up looking like winners if they traded Benn for him. Even if Benn was as good as everybody thinks. But I'm not a pro scout.
Blind Gardien, you've done a good job at presenting a fair analysis for both teams and I would think you're correct in your above assessment and now it comes down to GM's and Scouts' opinion, which we as fans have no insight on, we just have our own judgment to rely on.

The Stars and the Habs are the two teams I've watched the most this year. My personal opinion on the subject is this, if I'm Dallas, I'd rather give up less and get a Schneider/Ellis/Lehtonen and sign Biron as a UFA this summer to have a veteran back up in case one of the 3 above fail than trading Benn for Halak.

Like you said it's all speculation at this point, but that would be my personal assessment of the situation if I was in the Stars front office.

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02-03-2010, 03:59 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by danyhabsfan View Post
Price could get either one I think

Halak could fecth Benn maybe
There is no way Price who right now not even the best goalie in Montreal is going to get Neal or Benn in return. Dallas is not going to trade Benn, Neal, Eriksson, Grossman or Fistric!

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02-03-2010, 04:00 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by MTLPacman67 View Post
If he isn't, Weber and Carle aren't either.
Agreed, but after Vishnevskiy, the Stars don't have much in terms of offensive defensemen in the pipeline, at least not to my knowledge. I would think it would be a need for improvement for the organization. The Habs have a nice group of young offensive defensemen in Weber/Carle/Subban. I'm just saying it could be a potential fit.

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02-03-2010, 04:00 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by MTLPacman67 View Post
If he isn't, Weber and Carle aren't either.
And they aren't. Which isn't really a knock on any of them, but it's not that common for young defensemen to just jump seamlessly into the NHL and contribute right away. It happens. But not frequently. Guys like Weber and Carle and Visnhevskiy are all going to need some integration time IMHO. I doubt all of them will be NHLers. I don't know which ones will be and which won't. Some teams are ready to burn integration time earlier than other teams, some teams get better value leaving those players in the minors longer so that they'll be closer to being ready when they do come up.

I don't see Weber or Carle as being of really large value to the Habs... they have a better prospect in Subban already, and showed this year that they can find a Bergeron at the drop of a random UFA leftover hat.

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02-03-2010, 04:03 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Canadian_Brewtality View Post
Both teams are exagerating quite a bit here.

Halak and Price have just as much potential as Benn or Neal in their respective roles.
Its trading for need. Dallas had nothing coming up from the pipes and both Halak and Price have the potential to be to end goaltenders.

Obviously the deals would have to be tweaked, but Dallas fans make it seem like Benn and Neal are 50 goal scorers waiting to bust out.

That all being said, i think both teams make good trading partners, there is familiarity there.

Great Post

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02-03-2010, 04:04 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
And they aren't. Which isn't really a knock on any of them, but it's not that common for young defensemen to just jump seamlessly into the NHL and contribute right away. It happens. But not frequently. Guys like Weber and Carle and Visnhevskiy are all going to need some integration time IMHO. I doubt all of them will be NHLers. I don't know which ones will be and which won't. Some teams are ready to burn integration time earlier than other teams, some teams get better value leaving those players in the minors longer so that they'll be closer to being ready when they do come up.

I don't see Weber or Carle as being of really large value to the Habs... they have a better prospect in Subban already, and showed this year that they can find a Bergeron at the drop of a random UFA leftover hat.
Which was my point.

Saying the Stars need an offensive defenseman and suggesting 2 guys who are in no way more NHL-ready than a prospect on the other squad doesn't make much sense.

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02-03-2010, 04:06 PM
  #91
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There is no way Price who right now not even the best goalie in Montreal is going to get Neal or Benn in return. Dallas is not going to trade Benn, Neal, Eriksson, Grossman or Fistric!
I personally would give Halak/2nd/dagostini for Benn.
However if you wouldn't do Benn for Carey Price straight up then I'm sorry Dallas is dumb.

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02-03-2010, 04:06 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by felixd View Post
Blind Gardien, you've done a good job at presenting a fair analysis for both teams and I would think you're correct in your above assessment and now it comes down to GM's and Scouts' opinion, which we as fans have no insight on, we just have our own judgment to rely on.

The Stars and the Habs are the two teams I've watched the most this year. My personal opinion on the subject is this, if I'm Dallas, I'd rather give up less and get a Schneider/Ellis/Lehtonen and sign Biron as a UFA this summer to have a veteran back up in case one of the 3 above fail than trading Benn for Halak.

Like you said it's all speculation at this point, but that would be my personal assessment of the situation if I was in the Stars front office.
Dead on right there.

In regards to IV agreed he is not exactly where one would hope defensively, however, management will be out of options next year, he has to play on the big club or they run the risk of him jetting to KHL.

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02-03-2010, 04:07 PM
  #93
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Fixed it for you. All depend of the way you see it.

We're not the GMs so let's just say that if our teams make a deal, one team will likely be upset.
Neal has been mentioned as well. He is Dallas' leading goal scorer.

Benn (at age 20) looks to be better in some areas than Neal. They (along with Eriksson) are going to be contending for scoring titles in Dallas for years to come.

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02-03-2010, 04:08 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Courtesy Flush View Post
There is no way Price who right now not even the best goalie in Montreal is going to get Neal or Benn in return. Dallas is not going to trade Benn, Neal, Eriksson, Grossman or Fistric!
To be honest, I wouldn't feel too bad if a deal worked out involving Price and either Benn or Grossman.

Throw in a couple pieces on each side, obviously, but we've got a logjam at LW and are in dire need of a starter, and I like Price's upside as a starter more than Halak's.

Trade for Price, sign Harding in the offseason, and we're good to go.

Oh, and an offensive defenceman, hopefully Nieuwy remembers we need one of those as well.

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02-03-2010, 04:19 PM
  #95
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Maybe it's semantics about what the word "fair" means. On the ice, the performance of your #1 goalie would seem to me to matter more than the performance of most top-6 wingers, save for that upper crust of perennial all-star wingers, which I'm not sure anybody is even projecting Benn as becoming here. On the ice, I think Halak fulfilling his potential as a Turco-calibre #1 goalie for half a dozen years is a greater return than Benn fulfilling his potential. So wouldn't it be "fair" for the Stars to take the player who will mean more to them?

Conversely, one may choose to go by the argument that you can have Schneider, Ellis, Lehtonen or whoever for a 2nd round pick, and that it's the market which defines "fair", not the player performances/upside/impact. And you think Schneider is going to live up to his AHL performances, and Lehtonen will be healthy, etc.
Well said.

Goalies are on the ice for 60 minutes, a forward plays for 20. You only get two goalies on the roster, and you generally see 14 forwards. It certainly seems that goaltenders should be valued higher than forwards.

But for whatever reason, they aren't. Goaltenders - even good ones - just don't bring back that much in a trade. Maybe it's because we see random kids go on hot runs in the playoffs (Ward, Varlamov). Maybe it's because there are only two guys in recent years (Brodeur, Luongo) who have put up impeccable performances year after year, while the majority of guys are inconsistent from year to year.

As I have said.. Halak would be a fine option for the Stars. Perhaps the best option. But Dallas isn't going to overpay. Benn or Neal straight up is overpayment based on the NHL trade market of recent years.

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02-03-2010, 04:28 PM
  #96
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This sounds like an old rumor. The Stars were talking to Montreal earlier but their demands were too high. If they are/were actually asking for Benn then Dallas moves on to another team without batting an eyelash.

Also, Vishnevskiy is ready to play in the NHL right now in a limited even-strength/PP specialist role.

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02-03-2010, 04:32 PM
  #97
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Price for Ribeiro straight up.



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02-03-2010, 05:11 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Canadian_Brewtality View Post
Both teams are exagerating quite a bit here.

Halak and Price have just as much potential as Benn or Neal in their respective roles.
Its trading for need. Dallas had nothing coming up from the pipes and both Halak and Price have the potential to be to end goaltenders.

Obviously the deals would have to be tweaked, but Dallas fans make it seem like Benn and Neal are 50 goal scorers waiting to bust out.

That all being said, i think both teams make good trading partners, there is familiarity there.
Precisely.

And in the recent NHL trade market, goalies return very little in trades.

I don't make that market. I'm not saying it makes sense. It just is what it is.

There are Stars fans thinking that we'll get a valuable asset for Turco before the deadline as a rental to someone. They're delusional too. He'll be a UFA in a few months. He's had a terrible regular season, and has historically had trouble in the playoffs.

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02-03-2010, 05:20 PM
  #99
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With Mike Cammalleri, Benoit Pouliot at the left wing and Max Pacioretty for next years, i don't really see a spot for Benn (i really like him but..). With O'Byrne who can play with Markov, Hamrlik with Spacek and Gorges with Gill/Subban/Weber, there is no spot at defence. If Sergei Kostitsyn plays in the KHL and probably Andrei Kostitsyn in 2 years, i can be affraid with this position (RW). With the salary cap, Plekanec (or Gomez) will be trade. So, i just say that i don't see a trade Habs/Dallas. Help me if i'm wrong...

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02-03-2010, 05:29 PM
  #100
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As a fan of neither team i'd say Benn for Halak is a good trade for both teams. (atleast as a starting point for discussions)

Halak has some serious talent and is just what the Stars need.

Because he is a hab he will get severly underappreciated on these boards.

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