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Burke vs JFJ?

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Old
01-22-2010, 10:29 AM
  #1
SuperCCM*
 
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Burke vs JFJ?

Are the Leafs any better a team under Brian Burke than John Ferguson JR?

I mean i see the same GM errors having been made by Burke that JFJ made.

And the team is playing way worse under Burke's tenure.

Discuss...

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01-22-2010, 10:32 AM
  #2
TheTotalPackage
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Burke traded two 1st rounders for Kessel.
JFJ traded two 1st rounders for Raycroft and Toskala.

That's enough for me.

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01-22-2010, 10:32 AM
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperCCM View Post
Are the Leafs any better a team under Brian Burke than John Ferguson JR?

I mean i see the same GM errors having been made by Burke that JFJ made.

And the team is playing way worse under Burke's tenure.

Discuss...
lol, Burke is pretty bad granted, but not even he is so incompetent to do:

Rask for Raycraft
1st for Vesa

Atleast Burke got back a young guy with potential

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01-22-2010, 10:32 AM
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phillipmike
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Same errors?

Explain?

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01-22-2010, 10:33 AM
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iPunch
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheTotalPackage View Post
Burke traded two 1st rounders for Kessel.
JFJ traded two 1st rounders for Raycroft and Toskala.

That's enough for me.
Yeah that works for me. Time to close this thing down, we're done.

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Old
01-22-2010, 10:35 AM
  #6
EazyB97
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Burkes acquired a better player in Kessel than JFJ ever did. Burke also inherited a much younger team without the top level players. It's season 1 from Burke and the on-ice product is the worse we've ever seen, but there's also more hope for the future than JFJs team. It depends on how you want to define "Better".

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01-22-2010, 10:35 AM
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haitch
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JFJ had what 3-4 years?

Give Burke a fair chance, at least give him 2 drafts and 2 UFA periods, this team is still being molded into a Burke team...he's not finished yet

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01-22-2010, 10:42 AM
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bionic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haitch View Post
JFJ had what 3-4 years?

Give Burke a fair chance, at least give him 2 drafts and 2 UFA periods, this team is still being molded into a Burke team...he's not finished yet
thank-you.

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01-22-2010, 10:44 AM
  #9
phillipmike
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Burke in a year has done more for the team's future success then JFJ did during his tenure...

1. A Top Management Team; Burke brought us a former GM to be his assistant in Nonis, the best goalie coach in the world in Allaire, a respected college hockey executive in Poulin, added 9 scouts and re-signed Fletcher to be an advisor.

2. Nazem Kadri; Burke didnt do much here but Kadri is an important part to this team's future.

3. Jonas Gustavsson; Gustavasson is the team's future in net and so far is living up to expectations.

4. College Free Agents; Burke was able to sign 3 out of the 4 top free agents (Bozak, Hanson and Gustavsson - missing out on Gilroy) adding to the cupboard and current roster.

5. Free Agency Period; solidified the team's defence with the signings of Komisarek and Beauchemin, those guys will be key pieces towards being a contender.

6. Phil Kessel; the biggest and best roster move Burke made. He added a legitmate threat to this team, currently a star and potentially a superstar. Kessel is a very important building block and will be a huge factor if Toronto becomes a contender.

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01-22-2010, 10:49 AM
  #10
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Anyone will tell you that it is better to inherit a young team on the way up rather than an old team on the way down.

In any event they can't really be compared because they never held the same job titles.

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01-22-2010, 10:57 AM
  #11
bobermay
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK View Post
Anyone will tell you that it is better to inherit a young team on the way up rather than an old team on the way down.

In any event they can't really be compared because they never held the same job titles.
JFJs "old" team was full of tradable assets. He turned us from a consistant contender... to one of the worse teams in the league.

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01-22-2010, 10:59 AM
  #12
Dalton
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Burke added Kessel, Komisarek, Beauchemin, Orr, Primeau and all the kiddies.

JFJ traded Rask and how many first picks and ended up with Toskala.

Seriously. (remark for posterity)

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01-22-2010, 11:08 AM
  #13
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Originally Posted by bobermay View Post
JFJs "old" team was full of tradable assets. He turned us from a consistant contender... to one of the worse teams in the league.
What tradeable assets would those have been? Given that he had to keep some players and over half the team pre-lockout aren't even playing any more.

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01-22-2010, 11:08 AM
  #14
bionic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phillipmike View Post
Burke in a year has done more for the team's future success then JFJ did during his tenure...

1. A Top Management Team; Burke brought us a former GM to be his assistant in Nonis, the best goalie coach in the world in Allaire, a respected college hockey executive in Poulin, added 9 scouts and re-signed Fletcher to be an advisor.

2. Nazem Kadri; Burke didnt do much here but Kadri is an important part to this team's future.

3. Jonas Gustavsson; Gustavasson is the team's future in net and so far is living up to expectations.

4. College Free Agents; Burke was able to sign 3 out of the 4 top free agents (Bozak, Hanson and Gustavsson - missing out on Gilroy) adding to the cupboard and current roster.

5. Free Agency Period; solidified the team's defence with the signings of Komisarek and Beauchemin, those guys will be key pieces towards being a contender.

6. Phil Kessel; the biggest and best roster move Burke made. He added a legitmate threat to this team, currently a star and potentially a superstar. Kessel is a very important building block and will be a huge factor if Toronto becomes a contender.
I agree with everything you said except about Burke not doing much about picking Kadri. He really wanted Kadri at the 7th pick and he could have traded that 7th pick to move up but he diden't. He also could have picked cowan like everyone expected him to do, again he diden't.
To tell you the truth I think Kadri is going to end up being Burkes best move along with Kessel.

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01-22-2010, 11:15 AM
  #15
John-Eric Iannicello
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For me, JFJ gambled and lost. And not even with the trades, but with the lockout and how the new NHL was structured. I don't think he anticipated how either played out.

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01-22-2010, 11:16 AM
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Old
01-22-2010, 11:24 AM
  #17
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To early to tell...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperCCM View Post
Are the Leafs any better a team under Brian Burke than John Ferguson JR?

I mean i see the same GM errors having been made by Burke that JFJ made.

And the team is playing way worse under Burke's tenure.

Discuss...
I havent seen ANY evidence that Burke is a better GM than JFJ...I haven't seen evidence that he is worse either. I have seen this...The team stinks.. Burke's acquisitions have been mediocre at best and I mean all of them. Burke cannot draft high the next two seasons> Fact...

The main difference in the two and this is an unfair comparison. JFJ was a rookie GM with not that many expectations other than he was a smart young hockey executive. Burke came with HUGE expectations (although Im not sure why because his resume of success is not that grand)...Give BB a couple more years....My guess is at the end of the day BB is an overpaid, over-rated, under-achieving GM...JFJ was just not that good but he was a rookie dont forget...

Everyone is willing to cut alot of slack for rookie players (see schenn, gustavsson, kadri, stalberg, hanson, bozak, gunnarsson) but not at the GM level. Also JFJ didnt have the same leverage as BB does because of his "rookie status" as compared to BB who demands full control of all hockey decisions. I dont think JFJ had that luxury.

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01-22-2010, 11:25 AM
  #18
cupcrazyman
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Burke has done better but unlike JFJ,he has full control & better hockey sense.

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01-22-2010, 11:27 AM
  #19
EazyB97
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Originally Posted by hockeyfanz View Post
I havent seen ANY evidence that Burke is a better GM than JFJ...I haven't seen evidence that he is worse either. I have seen this...The team stinks.. Burke's acquisitions have been mediocre at best and I mean all of them. Burke cannot draft high the next two seasons> Fact...

The main difference in the two and this is an unfair comparison. JFJ was a rookie GM with not that many expectations other than he was a smart young hockey executive. Burke came with HUGE expectations (although Im not sure why because his resume of success is not that grand)...Give BB a couple more years....My guess is at the end of the day BB is an overpaid, over-rated, under-achieving GM...JFJ was just not that good but he was a rookie dont forget...

Everyone is willing to cut alot of slack for rookie players (see schenn, gustavsson, kadri, stalberg, hanson, bozak, gunnarsson) but not at the GM level. Also JFJ didnt have the same leverage as BB does because of his "rookie status" as compared to BB who demands full control of all hockey decisions. I dont think JFJ had that luxury.
Overall or with us? Because I'm pretty confident Burke won a cup in Anahiem, I'd say that gives him something over JFJ.

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01-22-2010, 11:34 AM
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phillipmike View Post
Same errors?

Explain?
Don't get that one either. Ferguson inherited a winning franchise that had been a playoff contender for many years and turned them into a bottom feeder through bad trades, bad signings and not sticking to any kind of building plan for his team. He gutted a weak prospect pool, kept giving no-trade clauses to overpaid players which virtually handcuffed himself from making improvements and he always made choices with regards to player signings/trades.

Burke inherited a bottom feeder that had been almost totally gutted and has installed a plan as to what kind of team that he wants to build. His trades and signings have not all worked out yet but his plan is to build a team over a number of years and it takes time. He made a big splash in the college free agent market to help boost his prospect pool, traded for a young star in Kessel and does not give players contracts worth more than he believes that the player is worth (Moore and Antropov). His moves may not be perfect, but there is a definite feel that he is working to improve his roster, even if the results are not there yet.

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Old
01-22-2010, 11:39 AM
  #21
phillipmike
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfanz View Post
I havent seen ANY evidence that Burke is a better GM than JFJ...I haven't seen evidence that he is worse either. I have seen this...The team stinks.. Burke's acquisitions have been mediocre at best and I mean all of them. Burke cannot draft high the next two seasons> Fact....
So Burke cant acquire picks?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfanz View Post
The main difference in the two and this is an unfair comparison. JFJ was a rookie GM with not that many expectations other than he was a smart young hockey executive. Burke came with HUGE expectations (although Im not sure why because his resume of success is not that grand)...Give BB a couple more years....My guess is at the end of the day BB is an overpaid, over-rated, under-achieving GM...JFJ was just not that good but he was a rookie dont forget....
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfanz View Post
Everyone is willing to cut alot of slack for rookie players (see schenn, gustavsson, kadri, stalberg, hanson, bozak, gunnarsson) but not at the GM level. Also JFJ didnt have the same leverage as BB does because of his "rookie status" as compared to BB who demands full control of all hockey decisions. I dont think JFJ had that luxury.
A rookie player can screw up and then you can wash your hands with him. If a rookie GM screws up then he leaves your franchise is shambles for years to come (JFJ).

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01-22-2010, 11:42 AM
  #22
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Vesa Toskala, worst goalie in the league, nuff said.

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01-22-2010, 11:43 AM
  #23
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say what you want about jfj as the gm but in the drafting department id say he did pretty good for us. im not trying to defend the guy but he made a few moves as gm that killed us. had things gone differently then we would have been in amazing shape today.

1. nmc/ntc to the muskoka 5. had they all waived we would have been looking at:

sundin-1st + +
kaberle-carter +1
tucker-at least a 2nd rounder
mcabe- potentially mclaren + 1st i think the rumour was
kubina-2nd +

i might be a little off in some of the details but you get the point.

2. rask for raycroft = horrible miscalculation. he could have signed someone for cheaper or traded for a ****tier goalie then raycroft.

3. toskala +bell trade. there wasnt a need, toskala could have played amazing and we would have been alright but again he could have just signed someone for free.

the biggest problem in my opinion with jfj was his risk taking. he took chances and none of them worked out. burke it seems takes chances too, the difference is it is too early to see how they turn out. it is obvious though that no matter what happens with the kessel trade we at least have an asset to show for it who will get better as he matures. i cant see any more jfj did where i was at least pleased even if just for a short while with the return.

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01-22-2010, 11:48 AM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phillipmike View Post

A rookie player can screw up and then you can wash your hands with him. If a rookie GM screws up then he leaves your franchise is shambles for years to come (JFJ).
Burke left a lot of the infrastructure in terms of management personnel that was brought in by Ferguson in place and the players that were drafted are part of Burke's future too.

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01-22-2010, 11:55 AM
  #25
phillipmike
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK View Post
Burke left a lot of the infrastructure in terms of management personnel that was brought in by Ferguson in place and the players that were drafted are part of Burke's future too.
Which Management personnel did JFJ bring in?

Not saying JFJ did nothing. He small deals helped but his bigger deals hurt us more than his small deals....

Other than Gunnarsson, Stalberg and Kulemin, who is going to be apart of Burke's future? Only other decent prospects are Mitchell, Didomenico and Reimer and thats streching it.


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