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Grade Holmgren this season.

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Old
02-14-2010, 02:23 AM
  #51
Giroux tha Damaja
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
Leino for OKT/pick: C
Leino for OKT/pick/Wolfy: A+
I lol'd.


The Good:

- I think the Krajicek signing looks good so far.

- I love the Betts signing and extension.

- I really like the Bartulis extension.

- The Pronger move has pluses and minuses for me, but there is a HOF defense man in Philadelphia playing for less than Lupul was costing us.

- Ian Laperriere. ******* yes.

- The Leighton pick up looks positively clairvoyant at this point. His career was circling the drain in early November and now he's on fiya!

- Stevens firing and Laviolette's hiring is a slam dunk for me too. Some say it took too long to happen, but they really didn't wait that long to pull the plug on him this season when you look at what it took for Hitch and Murray to get canned. I think the reason it wasn't done in the off-season is the same reason Jones got put on re-entry waivers. Just look at how quickly Laviolette was in place. This had been thought about beforehand.

The Whatever:

- The Ray Emery signing I am ambivalent on. Ray did a good job when he was healthy, but so has Michael Leighton. He is not presently a top ~25 goalie in the NHL (when healthy) IMO, nor do I think he can be with out significant changes in his game. Then again he isn't paid like a top 25 goalie either.

- I don't mind the Jones situation because I believe it was motivated by wanting to give Jones a crack somewhere else (IMO he absolutely knew LA was reclaiming him). We always mention how they're such a "class organization" (X-player might give us a discount to stay in town, Y-player would love to play here and ex-players all loved it here)......but then ***** when the GM makes a decision out of loyalty to one of his players. We can't have it both ways. I'm alright with it.

- The OKT signing was what it was. He never really got a good chance to get going with us. Best of luck to him.

The outright Bad:

I can't think of anything from this season really.


Last edited by Giroux tha Damaja: 02-14-2010 at 04:34 AM. Reason: "Jones" to "Stevens"
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Old
02-14-2010, 08:45 AM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I am The Mush View Post
I lol'd.


The Good:

- I think the Krajicek signing looks good so far.

- I love the Betts signing and extension.

- I really like the Bartulis extension.

- The Pronger move has pluses and minuses for me, but there is a HOF defense man in Philadelphia playing for less than Lupul was costing us.

- Ian Laperriere. ******* yes.

- The Leighton pick up looks positively clairvoyant at this point. His career was circling the drain in early November and now he's on fiya!

- Stevens firing and Laviolette's hiring is a slam dunk for me too. Some say it took too long to happen, but they really didn't wait that long to pull the plug on him this season when you look at what it took for Hitch and Murray to get canned. I think the reason it wasn't done in the off-season is the same reason Jones got put on re-entry waivers. Just look at how quickly Laviolette was in place. This had been thought about beforehand.

The Whatever:

- The Ray Emery signing I am ambivalent on. Ray did a good job when he was healthy, but so has Michael Leighton. He is not presently a top ~25 goalie in the NHL (when healthy) IMO, nor do I think he can be with out significant changes in his game. Then again he isn't paid like a top 25 goalie either.

- I don't mind the Jones situation because I believe it was motivated by wanting to give Jones a crack somewhere else (IMO he absolutely knew LA was reclaiming him). We always mention how they're such a "class organization" (X-player might give us a discount to stay in town, Y-player would love to play here and ex-players all loved it here)......but then ***** when the GM makes a decision out of loyalty to one of his players. We can't have it both ways. I'm alright with it.

- The OKT signing was what it was. He never really got a good chance to get going with us. Best of luck to him.

The outright Bad:

I can't think of anything from this season really.
The thing with Jones is, given the cap room issue, having that much dead space could be a killer at the TDL.

If it forces Holmgren to dump a guy at the TDL to add another piece, it would be awful.

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Old
02-14-2010, 09:19 AM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSaq View Post
The thing with Jones is, given the cap room issue, having that much dead space could be a killer at the TDL.

If it forces Holmgren to dump a guy at the TDL to add another piece, it would be awful.
I understand this. You understand this. I am pretty sure Holmgren understands this too.

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Old
02-14-2010, 09:43 AM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I am The Mush View Post
I understand this. You understand this. I am pretty sure Holmgren understands this too.
Even if he understands it, I still have to slide it from the Whatever to the downright stupid.

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02-14-2010, 10:03 AM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
Letting Knuble go while keeping Jones and then getting that cap hit F.
Sticking with Stevens F.
Getting TKO F
Getting Boucher F


Leighton, Kraijcek A finally learned that he does not have to make a trade.
Betts, Lappy - A+

Overpaid for Pronger - B

Emery - C was good at the beginning then played injured, got seriously injured, got injured again. This season could be ****ed because of him.

Hiring Lavi - C, there was no one else and we were not getting McDaddy

Leino - traded TKO and got a wild card for 5th round pick. Up in the air.

Over all C
Pronger has been the best dman in league. If Dominic Moore gets a 2nd...
Maybe overpaid with the 2nd 1st but tough to complain at this time.

I think Homer had his eye on Lavi all along. He offered Lavi the Phantoms job to get him in the org so he could have an easy adjustment when/if Stevens didn't have the team playing well.

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Old
02-14-2010, 10:23 AM
  #56
Jester
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSaq View Post
Even if he understands it, I still have to slide it from the Whatever to the downright stupid.
Yep, pretty much. There's no "good" justification for that decision from a management of the team perspective.

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02-14-2010, 10:35 AM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drgaspari View Post
the most important question: are the flyers in a position to win a stanly cup now and in the immediate future? the answe is no for the following reasons.

this organization has not acquired a # goalie
this organization has no depth on the nhl roster
this organization has no top 6 forwards/ top 3 defensemen/ #1 goalie prospects in the system
this organization is not developing any current prospects. they all seem to be going baback wards
this organization has no top draft picks to rebuild the system
this organization has mismanaged the salary cap
this organization has no understanding of the cap
this organization has no flexibility to make any moves due to no trades

for these reasons Holmgren deserves an "f" . this organization has become a second level team whose only goal is to make the playoffs instead of trying to win a championship.

comcast needs to clean house on the current mngt team. if this organization continues in the same direction, they will become mediocre just like the 76ers
You're correct on some points but greatly exaggerate the extent of most or are just wrong.

1. Aside from the top 5-6 goalies (Brodure, Louongo, Henry, etc) Emery is just as good as any of the goalies on the next tier and lead a team to the cup finals.
2. Most teams don't because of the cap but having Leino & Pyorala at forward and Parent & Syvret at d isn't going to be bad.
3. The Phil's heard this complaint a lot meanwhile they had young guys like Rollins, Utley, Hamels, Myers, Burrell, etc all in the show and under 27 y/o. Similarly, hte Flyers have Carter, Richards, Hartnell, JVR, Coburn, Carle, ETC all in a similar way. Even Gagne isn't 30 yet. Keep an eye on Jaocim (sp?) in net.
4. I don't really know but Legein, Maroon, Bourdon, Matsumoto have all been playing pretty well.
5. True
6. True
7. Maybe
8. True but they may only need to make minor moves to contend (fingers crossed).

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02-14-2010, 11:37 AM
  #58
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In chronological order:

Firing goaltending coach Reggie Lemelin and hiring Jeff Reese:
We've never really had good goaltending and Lemelin could be partially be blamed for that. However, so far it was more or less a lateral move as we still have similar injuries to goalies as before (though that could be just bad luck). However, Leighton has also stated that the some of his revival is thanks to Reese. B

Signing Ray Emery:
A decent contract for a serviceable Goaltender with experience. Of course it is hard to foresee the injury troubles he'd get into. However, he was very good as long as he was not injured, and the problems we had midseason did not stem from goaltending either. Going into free agency without a goalie is a pretty bad idea, and I am glad he avoided that. B

Trading for Chris Pronger:
Good move for a defenseman who could very likely get the Norris trophy this season should make this a winner, but two first rounders as well as Sbisa was not that good. Losing Lupul's production also hurt, but losing Lupul's contract did not. A because Pronger is awesome.

Signing Chris Pronger to extension:
Something that can't really be judged short term. However, as already elaborated, Pronger is excellent so I have no worries about that. His cap hit significantly dropping next season is also a bonus, so let's just hope Chris stays healthy and competitive. B

Letting Mike Knuble walk:
Very bad considering the useless garbage we had still on the roster (Jones, ahem). It's somewhat understandable because we had expected Hartnell to become "the guy in front of the net" but it was still not good. F

Letting Martin Biron walk:
Biron was too greedy and had demands nobody was willing to pay him that, which is why he's 3rd string in Uniondale now. A for denying Marty that salary.

Letting Antero Niittymäki:
A bit of hindsight 20/20 given how Niitty has been playing in Tampa recently, but the question is if he had done the same here with the goaltending staff and I'd say no. He would have also needed a raise to retain him. C

Letting Andrew Alberts walk:
Really nothing lost here. Alberts is a bottom pairing defenseman. I liked it when he was acquired last season because he filled the role of a physically punishing defenceman, but Pronger pretty much stuffed that role this year, so nothing lost here. C

Letting Kukkonen and Aubin walk:
They're in europe now. Nothing lost, nothing gained. Any questions? C

Signing Brian Boucher:
I had hoped a bit more but the team did never really perform in front of him when he was given a chance to play. He's a servicable backup at a decent salary, but certainly no season-saver. C

Signing Ian Laperriere:
Excellent cheap defensive forward and probably the toughest son of a ***** out there. A+

Signing Mika Pyörälä:
I had a lot more hope for him after the preseason but I think he is just a player that can't work on american ice. Very underperformed but also did not pay that much. C

Signing Ole-Kristian Tollefsen:
OKT is pretty bad but he was some cannon fodder to be stuffed into the bottom pair if needed, but he was still pretty bad. D

Inviting Blair Betts to training camp and subsequent signing:
Absolutely nothing to complain here. Betts is a fantastic defensive forward and good on face-offs, something we needed. He is a bit injury prone as we have seen, but he is still a player any team should want to have. A+

Trading for Stefan Legein:
An AHL move for now. With a glut NHL ready defensemen available and some developing talent in the system, trading Ratchuk wasn't that much of a problem. Getting Legein is decent. He has some talent and could develop into something good and the Phantoms needed some help on offense (and still do). A bit of a lateral move though. A C for now.

Putting Randy Jones on re-entry waivers:
What the hell were you thinking? Losing a player for nothing but still footing half his salary. WTF? F-

Firing John Stevens:
A necessary move. The team was going nowhere fast and really has never been during the last year and a half before that move. However, the firing could have been done a lot more timely seeing the extended periods of time that the team had off before this, like a 1 game in 12 days span, or three consecutive days off after coming back from the road trip. Instead Stevens was fired, Laviolette got brought in, had a single full practice and the next game was lost 8-2. An A for the move but an F for the execution.

Hiring Peter Laviolette:
Best coach on the market and the team is now showing the signs of his system and how it improved them. A

Claiming Michael Leighton:
He has exceeded all expectations, especially after people were calling for him to be burned at the stake right after this move. The stats he has with us speak a loud language. B because there was a bit of luck involved.

Signing Lukas Krajicek:
Has worked pretty well so for. Eats minutes without being weak on the puck. A definite improvement as evident by him supplanting Coburn as #4. B

Trading for Ville Leino:
As of right now, we have no basis to judge that move without having seen Leino actually play a game at all. However, trading in Tollefsen has really not hurt. C for now, to be further evaluated on a later date.

Signing Betts to extension:
Excellent signing way under value of what Betts is actually worth. A+

Retaining Medical and trainer staff:
This is a glaring point where something needs to change and not much has happened yet. Given the number of injuries, especially in the groin and hip area we have seen in recent years (Gagne, Briere, Niittymaki, Biron, Emery) something really needs to happen here. D


Overall: B-
Made the necessary and a lot of good moves, though same bad is also mixed in, though most of them, e.g. injuries, were not really foreseeable. The bad timing on the firing of Stevens and the Jones debacle where wholly unnecessary though.


Last edited by chaosof99*: 02-14-2010 at 12:37 PM.
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Old
02-14-2010, 11:44 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chaosof99 View Post
Trading for Stefan Legein:
An AHL move for now. With a glut NHL ready defensemen available and some developing talent in the system, trading Ratchuk wasn't that much of a problem. Getting Legein is decent. He has some talent and could develop into something good and the Phantoms needed some help on offense (and still do). A bit of a lateral move though. A C for now.

Trading for Ville Leino:
As of right now, we have no basis to judge that move without having seen Leino actually play a game at all. However, trading in Tollefsen has really not hurt. C for now, to be further evaluated on a later date.
I disagree with you handing out grades for players within the moves, when you should be evaluating the moves themselves. Holmgren got both of these possible impact players for players that would have never (Ratchuk) and should have never (OKT) seen a Flyers uniform.

Because of this, C is low. He got legitimate assets for virtually nothing. We can sit back and hope that either pan out, but that's pretty impressive.

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02-14-2010, 12:35 PM
  #60
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I've given them C's because to me that is the average grade. Nothing fancy but also nothing to frown upon. You are speculating that they may become impact players, but so far I have no real basis to evaluate them. Legein does decently in the AHL, but he is also inconsistent, and Leino has a really bad rep for this season and I have never seen him play a full game, let alone since the trade.

Both are to be reevaluated on a later date.

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02-14-2010, 12:45 PM
  #61
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The real problem with grading Holmgren on individual moves is that it ignores where his real problem exists...big picture management.

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02-14-2010, 10:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
The real problem with grading Holmgren on individual moves is that it ignores where his real problem exists...big picture management.
I feel the Jones fiasco is a perfect summation of his tenure, regardless what picture you want to look at.

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02-14-2010, 11:15 PM
  #63
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The real problem with grading Holmgren on individual moves is that it ignores where his real problem exists...big picture management.
Exactly. A GM is supposed to win each deal, but in the end, he will loose a few. At the end of the day, you have to judge it as a whole, and how it will work out in the future.

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02-14-2010, 11:33 PM
  #64
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I feel the Jones fiasco is a perfect summation of his tenure, regardless what picture you want to look at.
Not entirely true. If we had $10M in cap space and Holmgren felt like helping out Jones...fine, help out Jones. However, that wasn't our situation. We had a sliver of cap space, that Holmgren had worked to create last summer...and then he proceeded to kill it within a month of the season starting.

As an individual move...the Jones thing is REALLY stupid. As an individual move within the bigger picture of what was going on with the club...EPICALLY stupid.

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02-14-2010, 11:57 PM
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Some food for thought. Many say the Jones re-entry waiver move was idiotic, however one day in the future the idea of the organization continuing to be a loyal one could pay off and perhaps give us the edge in signing someone. Obviously even if this does happen, it might not stem from the Jones being put on re-entry waivers and its likely we would never know that org. loyalty was a factor, but it's a possibility.

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02-15-2010, 12:02 AM
  #66
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Some food for thought. Many say the Jones re-entry waiver move was idiotic, however one day in the future the idea of the organization continuing to be a loyal one could pay off and perhaps give us the edge in signing someone. Obviously even if this does happen, it might not stem from the Jones being put on re-entry waivers and its likely we would never know that org. loyalty was a factor, but it's a possibility.
I respect the concept of organization loyalty, but that's not what happened there. And if it is what happened there, then Holmgren should have flat stated that.

Fact of the matter is that they were trying to get Randy Jones up to the club after Gagne went on LTIR. They could have re-called Jones prior to then and allowed someone to pick him up (you don't need to bring the guy up after you put him on waivers, he could have stayed with the Phantoms and remained off our cap). Nope, they waited until we had the open cap space to accommodate Jones' salary and ONLY THEN attempted to bring him up.

It wasn't about loyalty...Holmgren was going to put Jones on the club, and, for some unknown reason, actually thought it was a good idea to risk putting him through re-entry waivers.

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02-15-2010, 12:03 AM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilovetheflyers8 View Post
Some food for thought. Many say the Jones re-entry waiver move was idiotic, however one day in the future the idea of the organization continuing to be a loyal one could pay off and perhaps give us the edge in signing someone. Obviously even if this does happen, it might not stem from the Jones being put on re-entry waivers and its likely we would never know that org. loyalty was a factor, but it's a possibility.
While I understand your point; this sounds more like something Holmgren would be grasping for, while getting razzed by his buddies at tea time.

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02-15-2010, 12:35 AM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mm6492 View Post
Exactly. A GM is supposed to win each deal, but in the end, he will loose a few. At the end of the day, you have to judge it as a whole, and how it will work out in the future.
I think his point was that while most of his moves seem alright on their face, they might not necessarily all be executed as part of a long term agenda that Holmgren is executing. A bit like playing chess and changing your overall strategy every move. Each move individually might make sense outside the context of the other moves, but you still lose.


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02-15-2010, 01:29 AM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
The real problem with grading Holmgren on individual moves is that it ignores where his real problem exists...big picture management.
I dont think there is a grade on how bad he manages the cap. He's horrendous at it. Like really bad. You would think he would get better, but **** just keeps going the wrong way. It's like he doesnt even know theres a cap.

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02-15-2010, 01:32 AM
  #70
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I dont think there is a grade on how bad he manages the cap. He's horrendous at it. Like really bad. You would think he would get better, but **** just keeps going the wrong way. It's like he doesnt even know theres a cap.
Yeah, I mean what's fascinating about the Jones thing was that you figured he learned from last year. Between what Richards said, he said...what he did during the summer...everything pointed towards them having a bit firmer grasp of what they were doing.

Nope.

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