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ATD 2010, Part I

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Old
02-10-2010, 06:38 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Come on??? really??? I think the fact that Lemieux had over 5 times as many players competing for stats like this. Howe played against 5 other teams..
Those are the stats that matter. You are, however, more than welcome to explain your own view on the matter.

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02-10-2010, 06:38 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
What we're forgetting is that Mario returns to the city he dominated junior hockey in.
BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!! I WASN'T GOING TO BRING THIS UP MYSELF, BUT YESS ALSO A CONTRIBUTING FACTOR WHICH IF THAT DOESN'T ACCOUNT FOR SOME SORT OF CHEMISTRY I'M NOT SURE WHAT DOES...

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02-10-2010, 06:40 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by jareklajkosz View Post
Those are the stats that matter. You are, however, more than welcome to explain your own view on the matter.
If theres only 80 players in the league, than who cares if he's in the top 10 in points? Lemieux faced upwards of 400

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02-10-2010, 06:44 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
If theres only 80 players in the league, than who cares if he's in the top 10 in points? Lemieux faced upwards of 400
However, the fact remains that if you just dropped in another 320 players into Howe's era, he would STILL have those same finishes because the best players were already playing in the NHL. There are very very few, if any players that weren't already playing hockey that would have match what Howe did, or even come close. Maybe a couple times he'd move down a spot or two, but that's it.

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02-10-2010, 06:47 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by chaosrevolver View Post
I get what you're trying to do and I support it completely..but in response to that stat..

Lemieux:
Led in Points: 6
Top-5 in Points: 9
Top-10 in Points: 10
Led in Goals: 3
Top-5 in Goals: 6
Top-10 in Goals: 9
Led in Assists: 3
Top-5 in Assists: 9
Top-10 in Assists: 9

Howe:
Led in Points: 6
Top-5 in Points: 20
Top-10 in Points: 21
Led in Goals: 5
Top-5 in Goals: 14
Top-10 in Goals: 19
Led in Assists: 3
Top-5 in Assists: 17
Top-10 in Assists: 21
these stats certainly look in favour of howe but, we have to take into consideration that he played 9 more seasons then lemieux (26 versus 19), and roughly 700ish more games. the fact lemieux led the league in points the same number of times as howe (in 9 fewer seasons), while competing against arguably the greatest offensive player ever, is a very telling stat.

personally, you can't go wrong with either pick...

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02-10-2010, 06:50 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by papershoes View Post
these stats certainly look in favour of howe but, we have to take into consideration that he played 9 more seasons then lemieux (26 versus 19), and roughly 700ish more games. the fact lemieux led the league in points the same number of times as howe (in 9 fewer seasons), while competing against arguably the greatest offensive player ever, is a very telling stat.

personally, you can't go wrong with either pick...
These are some very good points. However, Howe's longevity (dominance in just about every year he played) should be a credit to his legacy, not something to be used to help out another player. Howe dominated even when he was getting old, and that's awesome. Most players can't do that. I don't think Howe having accomplished just as much in more games should be a detrimental factor. He might not have placed first more, but he certainly dominated far more often in the top-10s.

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02-10-2010, 06:53 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by jareklajkosz View Post
However, the fact remains that if you just dropped in another 320 players into Howe's era, he would STILL have those same finishes because the best players were already playing in the NHL. There are very very few, if any players that weren't already playing hockey that would have match what Howe did, or even come close. Maybe a couple times he'd move down a spot or two, but that's it.
I see your viewpoint, but i'd also like to point out that in Howe's era there were no european players whatsoever playing so you can't not mention this in your arguement, also the diversity of players make it that much more of an arguement for Lemieux as he faced different opponents with players like Gretzky involved in all of these scoring races

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02-10-2010, 06:56 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jareklajkosz View Post
These are some very good points. However, Howe's longevity (dominance in just about every year he played) should be a credit to his legacy, not something to be used to help out another player. Howe dominated even when he was getting old, and that's awesome. Most players can't do that. I don't think Howe having accomplished just as much in more games should be a detrimental factor. He might not have placed first more, but he certainly dominated far more often in the top-10s.
i definitely agree with what you've said and, certainly don't want to take anything away from howe's legacy - i was just using it as a counter argument.

it's slightly ironic that i used this argument as i often get frustrated when people try to diminish gretzky's accomplishments due to his longer career when comparing him to lemieux (not that this has happened here...).

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02-10-2010, 07:00 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
I see your viewpoint, but i'd also like to point out that in Howe's era there were no european players whatsoever playing so you can't not mention this in your arguement, also the diversity of players make it that much more of an arguement for Lemieux as he faced different opponents with players like Gretzky involved in all of these scoring races
The European argument is one that'll have to be addressed by someone else.

For me, everything that a player did is part of his legacy, and I don't find it necessary to account for players like Gretzky and whatnot. Howe accomplished what he did, and it's not his fault he was THAT much better than everyone else. Just like it's not Lemieux's fault that he had to "put up" with Gretzky in scoring races. If he was truly deserving of having that top spot, then he'd have been flat out better than Gretzky. He wasn't. It's about era dominance.

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02-10-2010, 07:02 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by papershoes View Post
i definitely agree with what you've said and, certainly don't want to take anything away from howe's legacy - i was just using it as a counter argument.

it's slightly ironic that i used this argument as i often get frustrated when people try to diminish gretzky's accomplishments due to his longer career when comparing him to lemieux (not that this has happened here...).
The question still remains how much longevity really matters in an ATD. But if we were looking at only peak, then we'd be drafting the Rob Browns of the world..

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02-10-2010, 07:11 PM
  #61
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Just to addres a couple of points -

1) Even with Gretzky taken into account, Howe still dominated the competition in the scoring race more than Lemieux did. I linked to posts by HO and FF in my Howe Bio that show he dominated offensively at least as much as Lemieux, during their respective peaks.

2) The "greater competition" argument is defnitely a valid one in favor of Lemieux. Europeans, greater population of Canada = greater talent pool. Note that this has nothing to do with the number of teams or players actually in the league. I also think that forwards in the 80s were encouraged to play more offensively, so if we give O6 forwards a bit of an extra edge for 2-way play (as we should)*, we do have to give 80s forwards a bit of an edge for offensive play. This is why I think Lemieux probably was slightly better offensively at his peak than Howe (though likely not as good overall).

3) The Iron Curtain didn't fall until Lemieux was on the tail end of his career, so I'm not sure the competitive gap is that big to begin with, however.


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Old
02-10-2010, 07:12 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by jareklajkosz View Post
The European argument is one that'll have to be addressed by someone else.

For me, everything that a player did is part of his legacy, and I don't find it necessary to account for players like Gretzky and whatnot. Howe accomplished what he did, and it's not his fault he was THAT much better than everyone else. Just like it's not Lemieux's fault that he had to "put up" with Gretzky in scoring races. If he was truly deserving of having that top spot, then he'd have been flat out better than Gretzky. He wasn't. It's about era dominance.
But he wasn't that much better?? If Gordie Howe played with xxxxx and xxxxx I dont think he would have posted 199 points as well as a +41 plus minus rating and 31 ppg? Lemieux made EVERYBODY around him better. He wasn't playing with hof's like Howe was until later on in his career...unfortunatly for my arguement I cant name drop so you'll have to use your imagination

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02-10-2010, 07:19 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by jareklajkosz View Post
The question still remains how much longevity really matters in an ATD. But if we were looking at only peak, then we'd be drafting the Rob Browns of the world..
If longevity mattered in the ATD draft why would Bobby Orr be considered the top pick???? P.S. Macleazy I agree with Orr as going number 1

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02-10-2010, 07:20 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
But he wasn't that much better?? If Gordie Howe played with xxxxx and xxxxx I dont think he would have posted 199 points as well as a +41 plus minus rating and 31 ppg? Lemieux made EVERYBODY around him better. He wasn't playing with hof's like Howe was until later on in his career...unfortunatly for my arguement I cant name drop so you'll have to use your imagination
Even if we accept that Lemieux was slightly better offensively, how does he make up the massive defensive and physical edge Howe has?

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02-10-2010, 07:31 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Come on??? really??? I think the fact that Lemieux had over 5 times as many players competing for stats like this. Howe played against 5 other teams..
All the best players were in the NHL, would more players make it harder to be in the top-10 or to lead the league?

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02-10-2010, 07:33 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by papershoes View Post
these stats certainly look in favour of howe but, we have to take into consideration that he played 9 more seasons then lemieux (26 versus 19), and roughly 700ish more games. the fact lemieux led the league in points the same number of times as howe (in 9 fewer seasons), while competing against arguably the greatest offensive player ever, is a very telling stat.

personally, you can't go wrong with either pick...
Gretzky may have held Lemieux back from finishing 1st, but he didn't stop him from finishing top-5... something he did 9 times as opposed to 20 by Howe.

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02-10-2010, 07:35 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by jareklajkosz View Post
Even if we accept that Lemieux was slightly better offensively, how does he make up the massive defensive and physical edge Howe has?
-It's not slightly it's almost a point per game?? Any way you cut it, my 1st line is a scoring line

-Your talking as if Mario was a midget he's 6'4 230, 230!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! he lead the league in plus minus with a plus 55 how is he a defensive liability?

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02-10-2010, 07:37 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
If longevity mattered in the ATD draft why would Bobby Orr be considered the top pick???? P.S. Macleazy I agree with Orr as going number 1
I'd really like an explanation of this from somebody??

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02-10-2010, 07:39 PM
  #69
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Just wondering...

Chigurh is now up, but is not on the clock, correct?

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02-10-2010, 07:40 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
-It's not slightly it's almost a point per game?? Any way you cut it, my 1st line is a scoring line

-Your talking as if Mario was a midget he's 6'4 230, 230!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! he lead the league in plus minus with a plus 55 how is he a defensive liability?
Cory Cross was like 25 feet tall and played like he was 5 feet tall. Size doesn't make you a physical powerhouse. Lemieux was never overly physical.

+/- is a very bad way to tell if a player is good defensively or not. It's very misleading because a high +/- can mean that the player is on the ice for a ton of goals for at even strength. It doesn't mean that they are ALSO preventing a lot of goals.

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02-10-2010, 07:42 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
-It's not slightly it's almost a point per game?? Any way you cut it, my 1st line is a scoring line

-Your talking as if Mario was a midget he's 6'4 230, 230!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! he lead the league in plus minus with a plus 55 how is he a defensive liability?
- I find the implication that if you were to take Howe then you would not be able to build a scoring line, rather funny.

- You appear to have a large modern player bias. That is fine, I'm not going to be too hard on you because you're new. You're here to learn, and learn you shall. But if you think comparing career points-per-game averages of two players 40 years apart is a good way to evaluate them, you are in for a long draft.

- Lemieux was never any good defensively. He led the league in +/- in 1992-93 through sheer offensive dominance.

- Howe was just as huge compared to his peers, as Lemieux was.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
I'd really like an explanation of this from somebody??
Orr achieved more in his 9 full seasons, than all players in history ever achieved, with the exceptions of Gretzky and Howe. On a per-game basis, Orr was the greatest player in hockey history. The only thing Gretzky and Howe have on Orr is career value. So he's a consensus top-3 pick, and rightly so.


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02-10-2010, 07:45 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
If longevity mattered in the ATD draft why would Bobby Orr be considered the top pick???? P.S. Macleazy I agree with Orr as going number 1
Because Orr's peak is so amazing he still blows every other defenceman out of the water.

[QUOTE=markrander87;23809284]-It's not slightly it's almost a point per game?? Any way you cut it, my 1st line is a scoring line

Lemieux, to my knowledge, spent most of his career playing in seasons at a much higher scoring rates than Howe's. We don't tend to look at PPG here when comparing across era's, because of how much it changes based on the league. A 100 point player who finishes 5th in league scoring in the 80s didn't have a better season than a guy who led the league in scoring with lots of good players with 70 points or so in the O6. (numbers may not be most realistic, but point is clear)

As far as the scoring notion goes, Lemieux is not the clear cut better offensive player. In this draft, with many checkers dangerous offensively, having a defensive consience on a scoring line is a good idea, especially if you really aren't sacrificing offense, like in this case. Having a tough, physical, power-forward guy to clear room and ensure your line isn't soft and easy to push around is good two, and Howe can do that nicely.

Quote:
-Your talking as if Mario was a midget he's 6'4 230, 230!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! he lead the league in plus minus with a plus 55 how is he a defensive liability?
Size doesn't equate to toughness, regular +/- is as much if not more about offense than defense. We also don't have Howe's +/- as far as I know- it could blow Lemieux's out of the water.

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02-10-2010, 07:49 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Gretzky may have held Lemieux back from finishing 1st, but he didn't stop him from finishing top-5... something he did 9 times as opposed to 20 by Howe.
Your stat is so misleading, if you actually looked at the amount of full seasons (59) or more games played by Lemieux:

11 seasons
9 times top 5 in scoring 82%
6 time point leader 55%

Howe:
26 seasons
20 times top 5 in scoring 77%
6 time point leader 23%

Bear in mind you can talk about Howe playing into his 40's....Mario missed out on 5 prime seasons battling cancer and other injuries, obviously longevity doesnt matter in this draft orr went first overall, how can anybody argue that Howe has better talent, hockey Potential or overall surperior value than Lemieux in this type of format??

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02-10-2010, 07:49 PM
  #74
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I noticed the Howe-Lemieux debate going on, and I can't resist chiming in. I don't agree that Lemieux was a poor defensive player. He was on the ice for a lot of goals against, but I think that's because he played a lot of ice time.

My study here looked at the performance of the Penguins with Lemieux and without Lemieux, and found that there was no difference in goals against when he played. (There was, of course, a massive difference in goals for and winning percentage). This suggests that Lemieux was neutral in his overall defensive impact, neither an asset nor a liability when it came to goals against.

I really don't think there's anything like a massive defensive edge between Howe and Lemieux. Also consider that Howe's peak came in a very weak time for star forwards (the early 1950s), meaning that the offensive edge is bigger than some simple comparisons have shown. I think Lemieux at #3 is absolutely a reasonable pick, depending on what you are looking for.

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02-10-2010, 07:58 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Come on??? really??? I think the fact that Lemieux had over 5 times as many players competing for stats like this. Howe played against 5 other teams..
You're going to have a tough time in this thing with arguments like this. The best is the best is the best is the way it works around here...there are some exceptions, but just about anything you say you're going to have to back up.

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