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ATD 2010, Part I

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Old
02-10-2010, 10:52 PM
  #101
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For those that made offers, sorry, the guy I want is here.

Anyway, the Detroit Vipers select D Ray Bourque.

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02-10-2010, 10:54 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
I'm done with stats we could rebuttle for days pulling out stats which favour either player, the bottomline is that Lemieux over Howe is not a "Facepalm" selection, it may be what wasn't expected but there were numerous reasons lready stated why I selected Lemieux over Howe, The most important stat PPG lEMIEUX 2nd, Howe 30 something haha
If you think points per game during a career is an important stat in this, you'd be alone in that train of thought.

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02-10-2010, 10:55 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Leafs Forever View Post
why don't you actually find some stats showing Lemieux was more clutch while actually giving Howe a fair chance?
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=688861.

bon appetit

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02-10-2010, 10:56 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
The most important stat PPG lEMIEUX 2nd, Howe 30 something
that totally ignores era... PPG is only relevant with respect to the era - others have provided very good statistical analyses relative to eras

this is an alltime draft; we don't glorify the modern era as the best ever, as stats like PPG does

of course, Mario Lemieux is a great player to build a franchise around and it makes sense for you to pick him. he won't even be in the same division as Orr, Howe or Gretz. the next greatest player he'll face here is Bobby Hull.

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Old
02-10-2010, 10:58 PM
  #105
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Only showing evidence in favour of Lemieux is not meaningful if you're trying to compare the two players.

Gordie Howe was the better playoff performer, though not by much.

link

For whatever it's worth I'd rank them the #2 and #3 best playoff forwards ever.

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02-10-2010, 10:58 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by jareklajkosz View Post
If you think points per game during a career is an important stat in this, you'd be alone in that train of thought.
Perfect, allow me to draft my team in peace and everybody can vote as they deem fit, I promise you every one of my picks will have reasoning and merit behind them and my first target was a Prolific high scoring 1st line center and I believe I filled that quota

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02-10-2010, 11:00 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
I'm done with stats we could rebuttle for days pulling out stats which favour either player, the bottomline is that Lemieux over Howe is not a "Facepalm" selection, it may be what wasn't expected but there were numerous reasons lready stated why I selected Lemieux over Howe, The most important stat PPG lEMIEUX 2nd, Howe 30 something haha
You really haven't shown any "objective" stats so to speak- just stats that tend to favor modern players or ignore longevity. I'd like to see you post some relative stats that prove your point.

That's not the most important stat, and you reposting that shows(to me) you took rather little from this debate, which I thought was rather educational to a new player. Keep in mind you're arguing against guys that will be ranking your team.

For your benefit, here's a repeat- PPG is aboslutely an irrelvant stat when comparing two players from different era's. You see, scoring rates change over the years for a variety of reasons- rule changes, goalies, defenses, coaching systems, etc.. And as a result great players in certain era's score less points than some modern era's like the 80s. However, this comes through no fault of the guys in lower scoring era's and the benefit the guys in higher scoring era's get is usually an unfair one. As such, we use scoring placements to compare offenses as these are directly translateable across era's. It's the only way we can possible make this an "All-Time Draft" and no a "modern-time draft".

Besides this, Lemieux's numbers never got to take a drop with age as he was to injured to play long, while Howe's numbers dropped as he aged (naturally). PPG ignores Lemieux's injuries and relatively short-career (which is a minus that has to be considered) as well as Howe's amazing longevity (which is a plus that has to be considered for Howe). Why don't you look at points leaderboard- it's not really relevant due to the scoring rate changes, but at least it takes into account Lemieux's injures and Howe's longevity to a greater extent.

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02-10-2010, 11:01 PM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider View Post
Only showing evidence in favour of Lemieux is not meaningful if you're trying to compare the two players.

Gordie Howe was the better playoff performer, though not by much.

link




To Quote your Article
Quote:
In other words: Lemieux was 125% as good as his peers and Howe was 118% as good as his peers, so (assuming their peers were of a similar quality), Lemieux was 6% better offensively than Howe in the playoffs.
I dont know if im typing in spanish or what? I wanted a top line scoring center. I like how you choose to neglect the importance of face-offs as well throughout your entire arguement

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02-10-2010, 11:04 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
That doesn't really show clutchness (unless I missed something)- it shows Lemieux had a big impact on his team, which we all know. Howe had a big impact too. And as HO said, this doesn't give Howe a fair chance- it doesn't compare the two stats and thus, isn't relvant in current context tto debate. If you gathered the same stats for Howe, or found the same states for Howe, then we'd be talking.

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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Perfect, allow me to draft my team in peace and everybody can vote as they deem fit, I promise you every one of my picks will have reasoning and merit behind them and my first target was a Prolific high scoring 1st line center and I believe I filled that quota
You haven't shown much reasoning and merit behind the Lemieux pick. We are just trying to tell you how players get valued in this- and we are going to need to see the right type of reasoning and merit if you want us to support your picks.

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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
I dont know if im typing in spanish or what? I wanted a top line scoring center. I like how you choose to neglect the importance of face-offs as well throughout your entire arguement
As far as face-offs go, it's not exactly a fair comparison between a C and a RW. And I don't think face-off stats have been tracked that far back anyway- you'll sometime see "A guy was good at face-offs" for some old guys, but that's it, and I am sure there are plenty of bad and good face-off centres in this from the old days that we don't have any information on their face-off ability. As such, I don't think it's a stat we tend to use. (At least, I've never really seen it talked about)

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02-10-2010, 11:05 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Perfect, allow me to draft my team in peace and everybody can vote as they deem fit, I promise you every one of my picks will have reasoning and merit behind them and my first target was a Prolific high scoring 1st line center and I believe I filled that quota
In my own opinion, there was nothing wrong with your selection. I can see why someone would take Lemieux over Howe. Do I agree? Not really, and my ranking of your team may or may not reflect that, depending on how you draft the rest of the way. In my opinion, you passed over the most complete player in history and the easiest guy to build a team around. But it is your decision to make. You could stand to be a little more objective in your analyses though - as has been stated, only showing stats for your guy is not meaningful when you're trying to compare two players. You'll be given every opportunity in the world during this draft to back up everything you do, however, and I'm more than willing to listen, as long as you're reasonable about it.

I will say one thing, however - because you're new here, you could stand to be a little more respectful. You're coming off as arrogant, and if your plan was to make friends here, I'm not sure how far that'll take you. Do what you will, however, I'm only pointing this out.

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02-10-2010, 11:06 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Leafs Forever View Post
You really haven't shown any "objective" stats so to speak- just stats that tend to favor modern players or ignore longevity. I'd like to see you post some relative stats that prove your point.

That's not the most important stat, and you reposting that shows(to me) you took rather little from this debate, which I thought was rather educational to a new player. Keep in mind you're arguing against guys that will be ranking your team.

For your benefit, here's a repeat- PPG is aboslutely an irrelvant stat when comparing two players from different era's. You see, scoring rates change over the years for a variety of reasons- rule changes, goalies, defenses, coaching systems, etc.. And as a result great players in certain era's score less points than some modern era's like the 80s. However, this comes through no fault of the guys in lower scoring era's and the benefit the guys in higher scoring era's get is usually an unfair one. As such, we use scoring placements to compare offenses as these are directly translateable across era's. It's the only way we can possible make this an "All-Time Draft" and no a "modern-time draft".

Besides this, Lemieux's numbers never got to take a drop with age as he was to injured to play long, while Howe's numbers dropped as he aged (naturally). PPG ignores Lemieux's injuries and relatively short-career (which is a minus that has to be considered) as well as Howe's amazing longevity (which is a plus that has to be considered for Howe). Why don't you look at points leaderboard- it's not really relevant due to the scoring rate changes, but at least it takes into account Lemieux's injures and Howe's longevity to a greater extent.


So how can you compare physical presence and defensive ability as well, you've just reiterated my point all of those factors you just listed effect all facets of the game THIS IS WHY you cant laugh at choosing one player over the other.

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02-10-2010, 11:09 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
So how can you compare physical presence and defensive ability as well, you've just reiterated my point all of those factors you just listed effect all facets of the game THIS IS WHY you cant laugh at choosing one player over the other.
Defensive ability is somewhat quantifiable, but I'm not sure how many people actually submit to that.

Physical presence is somewhat quantifiable as well, through PIMs, number of hits, etc.

What we KNOW is that Howe was better defensively and physically than Lemieux. By how much is up for debate I suppose, as there is no way to set a baseline, but we know that Howe was a power forward who was responsible defensively, supported by many quotes, and Lemieux simply was not for the same reasons.

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Old
02-10-2010, 11:10 PM
  #113
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Im not trying to be arrogant or make it seem like I know everything about hockey..because I don't. I'm trying to argue my point I was called out by several other GM"s and because of that I felt and still feel the need to make arguements in my defence.

If you read that article closely you will see that it makes reference to Lemieux being a clutch performer in close one goal games and how he didnt run his point totals up in blow-outs, if you want to calculate the number for your side than please do I would love to see the results


Last edited by markrander87: 02-10-2010 at 11:17 PM.
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Old
02-10-2010, 11:10 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
To Quote your Article

I dont know if im typing in spanish or what? I wanted a top line scoring center. I like how you choose to neglect the importance of face-offs as well throughout your entire arguement
I'm not sure if you didn't read what I actually wrote, or if you're deliberately trying to misrepresent my position.

What I (very obviously) was trying to do is compare aspects of their games and draw an overall conclusion on who was better. Lemieux was marginally better offensively, but Howe was better defensively, and less injury prone. Thus the overall conclusion was that Howe had a better peak. Certainly you can have a better #1 line with Lemieux as long as it's built to maximize his many strengths and compensate for his few weaknessses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
AND yes I am calling out Hockey Outsider...he makes no reference of the impotance of face-offs.
Yes, Lemieux was above-average at winning face-offs. Does that offset Howe's advantages in other areas? No. I think Lemieux's face-off ability is marginal as there are lots of potential first-line centres who are above-average (or better) at face-offs, while no other players (aside from Gretzky, Howe and Lemieux) have a similar level of offensive dominance.

Maybe I'm misreading your tone but you seem to be taking this very personally - part of the ATD is learning to defend and your players/team concept in an objective and fact-based way. But another part is relaxing and enjoying the experience. People saying that you picked the 4th best player of all time when the 2nd best player was available isn't the end of the world.


Last edited by Hockey Outsider: 02-10-2010 at 11:21 PM.
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Old
02-10-2010, 11:13 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
So how can you compare physical presence and defensive ability as well, you've just reiterated my point all of those factors you just listed effect all facets of the game THIS IS WHY you cant laugh at choosing one player over the other.
Because faceoffs are something that is purely statistical (in term of analyzation), there is no way faceoff ability can be accurately assessed without keeping track of the thousands of faceoffs taken. If you watch someone enough you can go, "it seems like they usually win", but even then you can't be sure unless you've recorded all their faceoff results.

If you watch someone play enough times though, you can easily tell if someone is strong and physically punishing or has good defensive instincts, rushes back to check, is willing to block shots, etc..


btw - I hope you don't take this as an attack or insult, I'm trying to help... if you keep going at the rate you're going at you're not going to get very far in this thing. These guys are all incredibly knowledgeable hockey minds who have been presenting very valid civil arguments, that you've only responded to by making yourself look like a *********.

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02-10-2010, 11:15 PM
  #116
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In my own opinion, there was nothing wrong with your selection. I can see why someone would take Lemieux over Howe.
Thank you, i'm not trying to say that every GM should always take Howe over Lemieux. I just wanted some sort of respect and acknowledgement after I was laughed at after my original selection, it's not an outrageous selection


Quote:
Certainly you can have a better #1 line with Lemieux as long as it's built to maximize his many strengths and compensate for his few weaknessses.
and this is what I intend on doing...

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02-10-2010, 11:15 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Im not trying to be arrogant or make it seem like I know everything about hockey..because I don't. I'm trying to argue my point I was called out by several other GM"s and because of that I felt and still feel the need to make arguements in my defence.

If you read that article closely you will see that it makes reference to Lemieux being a clutch performer in close one goal games and how he didnt run his point totals up in blow-outs, if you want to calculate the number for your side than please do I would love to see the results


AND yes I am calling out Hockey Outsider...he makes no reference of the impotance of face-offs.
I think I can accept that Lemieux was better than Howe offensively, but it would only be marginal at best, and it would require a few assumptions here and there. But no way is he the better player.

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02-10-2010, 11:17 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Thank you, i'm not trying to say that every GM should always take Howe over Lemieux. I just wanted some sort of respect and acknowledgement after I was laughed at after my original selection, it's not an outrageous selection
Don't misunderstand - I respect your pick, but I don't agree with it. That is all. I'll let my rankings do the talking. You have every opportunity in the world to influence them, with your drafting the rest of the way and your supportive arguments.

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02-10-2010, 11:17 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
So how can you compare physical presence and defensive ability as well, you've just reiterated my point all of those factors you just listed effect all facets of the game THIS IS WHY you cant laugh at choosing one player over the other.
Physical and defensive prescences tend to get written in the hockey history books than face-offs do, for example. We know Howe was good physically/tough because it has been mentioned and written in many writings about him (plus, there's a reason why a Gordie Howe Hat Trick involves a fight). Defense, same thing- I believe HO mentioned a reference in him in an old newspaper about him being best/one of the best defensiver guys in the league. But to fully satiate you:

Quote:
The right winger was a giant in his time at 6'1" and 205 lbs. He had the build of a heavyweight boxing champion. And he knew how to fight-Joe Pelletier.
Quote:
Part of the legend of Gordie Howe is his unmatchable toughness. He had "windshield wiper elbows" and like to give "close shaves" to anyone who dared to challenge. Ask any hockey experts who they'd choose as the toughest NHLer ever, and most would put their money on Gordie Howe against anyone else.-Joe Pelletier
Quote:
Howe was a gifted power forward, an accomplished defensive player, a feared giant and the only player to have dominated three different eras - postwar NHL, the Golden Era of the 1960s and the Expansion Era.-Joe Pelletier
Stuff like that will get mentioned in books or other sources, with frequency and quality if quotes (By quality, "one of the best" vs "good") usually being used to equate how good an old guy was in that department.

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02-10-2010, 11:19 PM
  #120
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God, I love the ATD. Good for the newbie standing up for himself, a lot of guys just hide away from criticism. I don't necessarily agree with the pick, but good not backing down.

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02-10-2010, 11:21 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Thank you, i'm not trying to say that every GM should always take Howe over Lemieux. I just wanted some sort of respect and acknowledgement after I was laughed at after my original selection, it's not an outrageous selection
It wasn't, I agree, but I don't agree with is as many others do, and I felt strongly enough that Howe>Lemieux that I felt desire to debate,especially after using points that are really not the kind of things we use here to ensure fairness across era's. Debate here is pretty open- any pick you make, someone could critize (or praise), and then you might get a small debate going (or in this case, fairly large).

Besides this, debate is in large part how the ATD flows and how new information is obtained and we get a clearer picture on hockey history, and I agree with what chaos said- could for sticking up for yourself.

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02-10-2010, 11:21 PM
  #122
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Because faceoffs are something that is purely statistical (in term of analyzation), there is no way faceoff ability can be accurately assessed without keeping track of the thousands of faceoffs taken. If you watch someone enough you can go, "it seems like they usually win", but even then you can't be sure unless you've recorded all their faceoff results.
My point regarding faceoffs is that Howe is a winger, he holds zero value in that aspect of the game

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02-10-2010, 11:26 PM
  #123
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I just love all this controversy!

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Old
02-10-2010, 11:26 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
I'm done with stats we could rebuttle for days pulling out stats which favour either player, the bottomline is that Lemieux over Howe is not a "Facepalm" selection, it may be what wasn't expected but there were numerous reasons lready stated why I selected Lemieux over Howe, The most important stat PPG lEMIEUX 2nd, Howe 30 something haha
do points per game not fluctuate over time with goals per game?

do players who played after the age of 40 not see their points per game fall?

Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
To Quote your Article

I dont know if im typing in spanish or what? I wanted a top line scoring center. I like how you choose to neglect the importance of face-offs as well throughout your entire arguement
Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
My point regarding faceoffs is that Howe is a winger, he holds zero value in that aspect of the game
actually not true. howe also took faceoffs sometimes, and he was ambidextrous, so he could use either side.

lemieux was also not a great faceoff man.



i don't think it is strange to pick lemieux over howe, and i don't think you should be criticized for doing so.
i think what is drawing more criticism is using things like points per game to compare players who played 40 years apart.

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Originally Posted by chaosrevolver View Post
God, I love the ATD. Good for the newbie standing up for himself, a lot of guys just hide away from criticism. I don't necessarily agree with the pick, but good not backing down.
completely agreed

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02-10-2010, 11:27 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
My point regarding faceoffs is that Howe is a winger, he holds zero value in that aspect of the game
And thus it is an unfair point to really bring into this debate, because he didn't take face-offs while Lemieux did. And it is again, not something that tends to get looked at in the ATD due to lack of info on it for most players outside of modern times.

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