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Old
02-08-2010, 10:19 AM
  #1
rban*
 
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Hartnell vs Knuble

OK, one difference is Not Smartnell takes dumb penalties, which Knuble did not... but other than that...

Is HArtnell not projected to be a younger version of Knuble? Did Philly not ship out Knuble because they felt Hartnell could take his place and do the same job Knuble does?

That being, no passing, no pretty plays.. just stand in front of the net, take punishment, bang and hit, and knock in lotsa deflections. Washington is happy as pigs in ***** over Knuble's performance... what's the problem with Hartnell?

Are we asking him to do too much here? Are we saying that since he's paid 4.2 while Knuble only got 2.7, Hartnell has to be a beautiful passer and playmaker as well?

Hartnell is the only tough potential power forward Philly has. Philly HAS to make this work, cuz there is no one else like him.

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Old
02-08-2010, 10:25 AM
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At 27 years old, players no longer "project" what they're going to be.

They are what they are, and Hartnell is what he is.

With that said, his performance this year has been underwhelming. This has been covered in various places around the board. If not for Randy Jones, we'd probably still have Knuble.

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02-08-2010, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rban View Post
OK, one difference is Not Smartnell takes dumb penalties, which Knuble did not... but other than that...

Is HArtnell not projected to be a younger version of Knuble? Did Philly not ship out Knuble because they felt Hartnell could take his place and do the same job Knuble does?

That being, no passing, no pretty plays.. just stand in front of the net, take punishment, bang and hit, and knock in lotsa deflections. Washington is happy as pigs in ***** over Knuble's performance... what's the problem with Hartnell?

Are we asking him to do too much here? Are we saying that since he's paid 4.2 while Knuble only got 2.7, Hartnell has to be a beautiful passer and playmaker as well?

Hartnell is the only tough potential power forward Philly has. Philly HAS to make this work, cuz there is no one else like him.
Hooking in the offensive zone on a power play is not a dumb penalty?

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02-08-2010, 10:26 AM
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There's one big difference between the two. As you pointed out, Hartnell is not very smart. Knuble knew his role and knew how to be successful without taking the dumb penalties that Hartnell takes. Knuble also took an incredible amount of abuse, which is something that Hartnell won't seem to do because of his temper.

Hartnell was supposed to be a faster version of Knuble, but his undisciplined play is what negates everything. As what Charlie Murphy would say, Hartnell is a "habitual line stepper."

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02-08-2010, 10:28 AM
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He possibly could turn into a mike knuble. He just seems able to do more than knubs does - stick handling, shooting etc. He hasn't shown any of that as late, but hartnell has shown more skill than knuble, but has is the key word. I'll take consistent 2.7 big guy over more talented inconsistent 4.2 any day in the cap world. I just think hartnell himself is trying to do to much. He doesn't need to make the pretty play, but he always seems to try. Knuble never tried, he just knubled everyone in his office.
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02-08-2010, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by IAN aka RYAN View Post
He possibly could turn into a mike knuble. He just seems able to do more than knubs does - stick handling, shooting etc. He hasn't shown any of that as late, but hartnell has shown more skill than knuble, but has is the key word. I'll take consistent 2.7 big guy over more talented inconsistent 4.2 any day in the cap world. I just think hartnell himself is trying to do to much. He doesn't need to make the pretty play, but he always seems to try. Knuble never tried, he just knubled everyone in his office.
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I tend to agree. I think he feels that his 4.2 million means he has to do more... too much.

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02-08-2010, 10:33 AM
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I miss Knuble.

Knuble > Hartnell.

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02-08-2010, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by L-train View Post
At 27 years old, players no longer "project" what they're going to be.

They are what they are, and Hartnell is what he is.
Why don't you take my Delorian time machine back to any year from 1998 to 2002 and tell that to then 26, 27, 28, and 29 year old Mike Knuble? In those years he had 35 points in 82 games, 20 points in 73 games, 20 points in 82 games, and 14 points in 54 games.

He didn't really have his coming out party until he was in his age 30 season. Then, after his then-career year of 30-29-59, guess what he did? He regressed! All the way back to a measley 46 point player! And then guess what happened? He came here and, consequently, became the Knuble everyone here conveniently remembers.

So, yeah, not only do players not stop developing at 27, they may even be the type who don't really hit their peak until 32. Hartnell's already well out-produced him when considering the time frames of their careers. Talk to me in five years if you want to have this conversation, and, in the mean time, hate more on Randy Jones and our uniquely idiotic front office than on Hartnell for not having Knuble. Let's also not forget how Knuble got his own word for doing some of the very same things Hartnell does. It's not an easy role to learn and there's only a few guys in the entire league who really do it well. It takes a lot more time than almost any of you are apparently willing to give.


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Old
02-08-2010, 10:53 AM
  #9
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I agree with Sonny's post.

Not in favor of trading Hartnell either, I think everyone here has already forgotten that he was great last year.

Harnell's production is down from last season, but he's hardly alone in that respect.

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02-08-2010, 11:00 AM
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I'm a big supporter of Knuble but I do acknowledge that he plays with two of the best players in the league so he wouldn't be putting up quite the numbers here than he is in Washington.

But, that being said, Washington fans love him and with good reason. He still has all his flaws (slow, takes the occasional bad penalty, etc) but his pros outweigh them, just like they always have. Hartnell should have been able to pick up where Knuble left off. He hasn't been able to do so.

When Hartnell is playing well, he executes a pretty rare skill in the NHL. I just don't know what is wrong with him this season. I used to be strongly against trading him but now I would love to ship him (or Briere, but only for cap reasons) to Montreal for Halak+.

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02-08-2010, 11:03 AM
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Knuble took lazy penalties when he got beat by his man, some of them of course ill-timed.
Hartnell just takes stupid, needless penalties that have nothing to do with him getting beat by his man.
I would take Knuble any day over Hartnell.
Knuble also brought more to this team off the ice that Hartnell ever could bring.

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02-08-2010, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FireHolmgrenDotCom View Post
Knuble took lazy penalties when he got beat by his man, some of them of course ill-timed.
Yeah, like when the Flyers were on the PP.

I was definitely a Knuble fan when he was here, but that doesn't change the fact that we need Hartnell and shouldn't trade him (at least not when his value is down, like it is now.)

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02-08-2010, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by six sigma View Post
Yeah, like when the Flyers were on the PP.

I was definitely a Knuble fan when he was here, but that doesn't change the fact that we need Hartnell and shouldn't trade him (at least not when his value is down, like it is now.)
I agree Hartnell's trade value is way down.
Should have traded him back in July
Of course most Flyer fans would have probably jumped off the Walt Wittman bridge if that did happen

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02-08-2010, 11:20 AM
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We have the expression "Knuble'd the PP" for a reason...Hartnell takes some dumb penalties, but Knuble consistently took bad penalties on the PP.

Knuble has better deflection hands in front of the net.

Hartnell is better at setting up screens.

Hartnell has better speed, so he doesn't handicap his lines at even strength as much.

Knuble was more disciplined.

Neither is perfect, and Knuble is a more reliable player...but if we would just see the hammer come down on Hartnell's bad penalties, a lot of his problems would go away. The problem there is that since we're fighting for a playoff position it makes it tough to be doing active disciplining in games.

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02-08-2010, 11:31 AM
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Keep in mind Knuble plays with the best player in hockey in Washington, he wouldn't have put up the same numbers if he was still here.

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02-08-2010, 04:19 PM
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God I miss Knuble, I was so sad when he walked. His butt was always in front of the net, no matter what. I don't know what the heck Hartnell is doing this year.

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02-08-2010, 04:53 PM
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Yukon Cornelius
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
We have the expression "Knuble'd the PP" for a reason...Hartnell takes some dumb penalties, but Knuble consistently took bad penalties on the PP.

Knuble has better deflection hands in front of the net.

Hartnell is better at setting up screens.

Hartnell has better speed, so he doesn't handicap his lines at even strength as much.

Knuble was more disciplined.

Neither is perfect, and Knuble is a more reliable player...but if we would just see the hammer come down on Hartnell's bad penalties, a lot of his problems would go away. The problem there is that since we're fighting for a playoff position it makes it tough to be doing active disciplining in games.
Agree with everything except the screens. Hartnell's reputation really hinders his ability to set screens. Slight bumps from Hartnell generally result in Interference calls. Knuble got away with a lot more contact and that's huge for that role. I think for the most part, fans put an unrealistic expectation on Hartnell because of that contract (750k too much imo) Granted he's underachieving point wise this year, but how much is that connected to Simon's struggles. I like Scottie, in a game 6 or 7, he's the guy I'm looking to. Not a fan of the excuses and general whining but the media like to highlight his penalty minutes as some sort of indicator of his stupidity or lack of hockey sense which is garbage as I'll wager 1/3 of his minutes are by reputation/Phantom calls alone. I expect a big gane from him tonight.

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Old
02-08-2010, 04:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rban View Post
OK, one difference is Not Smartnell takes dumb penalties, which Knuble did not... but other than that...
You already Knubled yourself right there.

Knuble would be putting up half of what he puts up in Washington here. It helps when you're playing on a line with Ovechkin and Backstrom who are 1 and 4 in the league in points respectively.

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02-08-2010, 04:58 PM
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Agree with everything except the screens. Hartnell's reputation really hinders his ability to set screens. Slight bumps from Hartnell generally result in Interference calls. Knuble got away with a lot more contact and that's huge for that role. I think for the most part, fans put an unrealistic expectation on Hartnell because of that contract (750k too much imo) Granted he's underachieving point wise this year, but how much is that connected to Simon's struggles. I like Scottie, in a game 6 or 7, he's the guy I'm looking to. Not a fan of the excuses and general whining but the media like to highlight his penalty minutes as some sort of indicator of his stupidity or lack of hockey sense which is garbage as I'll wager 1/3 of his minutes are by reputation/Phantom calls alone. I expect a big gane from him tonight.
Hartnell, is bar none, the best screener we've had on this team the last few years. Knuble wasn't as good partially because he looked to play the puck in front of the net more, and is significantly better at deflections and getting his stick to loose pucks in the crease. Knuble was good at screening too, but not as good as Hartnell, IMO...who is VERY good at getting to the front of the net at just the right time to F the goalie over. Yes, sometimes he gets a bit too rambunctious and it leads to penalties, but it has contributed to a LOT of goals the last few years that he gets zero credit for on the score sheet.

If you go back and look at a lot of goals his lines have scored on set offensive zone possession, you'll find him directly in the goalies face often.

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Old
02-10-2010, 12:41 AM
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rban View Post
OK, one difference is Not Smartnell takes dumb penalties, which Knuble did not... but other than that...

Is HArtnell not projected to be a younger version of Knuble? Did Philly not ship out Knuble because they felt Hartnell could take his place and do the same job Knuble does?

That being, no passing, no pretty plays.. just stand in front of the net, take punishment, bang and hit, and knock in lotsa deflections. Washington is happy as pigs in ***** over Knuble's performance... what's the problem with Hartnell?

Are we asking him to do too much here? Are we saying that since he's paid 4.2 while Knuble only got 2.7, Hartnell has to be a beautiful passer and playmaker as well?

Hartnell is the only tough potential power forward Philly has. Philly HAS to make this work, cuz there is no one else like him.
Umberger is playing better then Hartnell. the signing of Harnell cost the flyers Umberger. Forget Knuble dude.

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02-10-2010, 12:59 AM
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Originally Posted by panayiotis View Post
Umberger is playing better then Hartnell. the signing of Harnell cost the flyers Umberger. Forget Knuble dude.
Yeah, the signing of Hartnell, which happened a whole year before Umberger was up for a contract, who also plays an entirely different game and thereby serves an entirely different purpose, cost the Flyers Umberger.

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02-10-2010, 02:16 AM
  #22
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If Hartnell could learn to control his temper, he would be quite the useful player. I wonder if this guy seriously has some mental problems because if Lavi can get Carcillo to start playing smarter, I don't know why he can't get Hartnell to follow suit.

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02-10-2010, 03:28 AM
  #23
Bort Sampson
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If you're comparing this team to recently successful Flyers teams, the topic shouldn't be Hartnell vs. Knuble.

2 seasons ago: Hartnell, Knuble, Umberger
Last season: Hartnell, Knuble
This season: Hartnell

All three of those guys had their own style and were different players, but they all got dirty and grabbed a lot of their points from the same spots. That's pretty much the Flyers' problem right now.

Not only does the loss of those two forwards hurt, but think back to who else the Flyers had that they really miss from that run: Hatcher and Smith were the intimidatingly efficient defensive defensemen, Prospal was picked up at the trade deadline and was one of the leading playoff scorers, Briere and Coburn were playing well the whole year, and Upshall was able to be moved around in the line-up.

The Flyers' team dynamic has changed completely in just two years. Probably the biggest changes, the firing of Stevens and the hiring of Laviolette, happened not too long ago.

This team's got to develop over time in order to win. It seems like the Flyers have tried to develop into a contender by taking the Pens' tactic in building around two players. The only difference is that they have two of the best players in the world. It's not that Richards and Carter are crap, but they are great pieces to build with, not around.

But it's not as simple as trading a player or letting someone walk. They've done that and the team has only gotten worse. Because of the "win now" mentality seemingly shared by the organization and the fans, the team will never get what it really needs: time to develop together.

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Old
02-10-2010, 03:50 AM
  #24
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Originally Posted by panayiotis View Post
Umberger is playing better then Hartnell. the signing of Harnell cost the flyers Umberger. Forget Knuble dude.
Umberger is a big guy that doesn't use his size like a PF often enough. I would love to have the guy back but he isn't going to gize what Knuble does.

Flyers should have signed Bert.

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Old
02-10-2010, 09:40 AM
  #25
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Because of the "win now" mentality seemingly shared by the organization and the fans, the team will never get what it really needs: time to develop together.

Well, that's kind of the issue in a salary cap NHL. You have to win while you still have good, young pieces attached to your roster at lower contracts. How many years do you think we can afford to just wait for our core to develop together?

You're only going to be able to afford JVR, Giroux, Gagne, Carter, Richards, Hartnell, Briere, Timonen, Pronger, et al all together before pieces have to give due to raises. In today's NHL, you get maybe a 2-3 year window of players in their prime before your good, young pieces have to move elsewhere because you can't afford to keep giving everyone raises.

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