HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Montreal Canadiens
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Saku better than Vinny ?? ... ???

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
04-24-2004, 10:28 AM
  #1
HABitude
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Laprairie, dans la belle Province
Posts: 2,561
vCash: 500
Saku better than Vinny ?? ... ???

Hey guys, I remember when Vinny Lecavalier had problems with his coach Torterella earlyer this season, that was the time to jump on a deal to get lecavalier here because I was conviced he was a top 5 or top 10 center in this league. From what i've saw yesterday he IS a top 5 center in this league. He is tall, strong, very fast and skilled. He clearly is better in every aspects than Ribeiro. I remember some posters here were saying Saku was better than Vinny by far. The only thing Saku might be better is the desire, the leadership and the commitment. Now if we compare the two players we have:

Speed: clear advantage to Vinny
Size: clear advantage to Vinny
Shooting: advantage to Vinny
Skills: advantage to Vinny
Leadership: little advantage to Saku
Desire and Commitment: little advantage to Saku

Vinny Lecavalier is just a taller/bigger Yanick Perreault, this is what I've read from a poster from this forum. Who said this?

Off-topic, every time I complain about saku the next games he step-up and prove me wrong. If you're superticious like me, you'll ask me to start a thread about that so Saku will bounce back and Habs are gonna win the series.

Also off-topic, I have made new avatars animated. I have my own with my dog at the end but I also have and english version with Komi instead of Perreault and another one in french without the dog, and one for Kerberos (with his cat).

HABitude is offline  
Old
04-24-2004, 10:37 AM
  #2
jcpenny
Registered User
 
jcpenny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Montréal
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,878
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by HABitude
Hey guys, I remember when Vinny Lecavalier had problems with his coach Torterella earlyer this season, that was the time to jump on a deal to get lecavalier here because I was conviced he was a top 5 or top 10 center in this league. From what i've saw yesterday he IS a top 5 center in this league. He is tall, strong, very fast and skilled. He clearly is better in every aspects than Ribeiro. I remember some posters here were saying Saku was better than Vinny by far. The only thing Saku might be better is the desire, the leadership and the commitment. Now if we compare the two players we have:

Speed: clear advantage to Vinny
Size: clear advantage to Vinny
Shooting: advantage to Vinny
Skills: advantage to Vinny
Leadership: little advantage to Saku
Desire and Commitment: little advantage to Saku

Vinny Lecavalier is just a taller/bigger Yanick Perreault, this is what I've read from a poster from this forum. Who said this?

Off-topic, every time I complain about saku the next games he step-up and prove me wrong. If you're superticious like me, you'll ask me to start a thread about that so Saku will bounce back and Habs are gonna win the series.

Also off-topic, I have made new avatars animated. I have my own with my dog at the end but I also have and english version with Komi instead of Perreault and another one in french without the dog, and one for Kerberos (with his cat).
stop those stupid comparaison. Vinny is 6'4 with skill while saku is a 5'9 with skill. i think size has an advantage. However Saku has Leadership, Heart and Desire, something Vinny never showed in all his career. If Tampa wins a cup i doubt that it will be because of lecavalier. St-Louis is a better leader.

jcpenny is offline  
Old
04-24-2004, 11:03 AM
  #3
Rahan
Registered User
 
Rahan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Chicoutimi
Posts: 1,760
vCash: 500
I never understood why people hyped Vincent Lecavalier so much. He's never shown any kind of leadership, he's not physical and doesn't rack up the points so much.

As for yesterday, the goal he scored wasn't pretty, and the other goals were almost flukes. I don't know why you're wetting your pants, Vincent isn't a top-5 center at all. Not now and if you ask me, not tomorrow.

Rahan is offline  
Old
04-24-2004, 11:08 AM
  #4
fufonzo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,561
vCash: 500
Send a message via ICQ to fufonzo Send a message via MSN to fufonzo
Koivu's quicker than Lecavalier and has better hands. He also has a much greater vision of the play. (From what i've seen) Koivu is also more physical then Vinny. He may be small but he still hits and is stronger than most people against the boards.

1st round of the playoffs
------------------------
Koivu against the (2nd seeded) Bruins' top line. 10 pts in 7 games (still top scorer of the league). He also held Thornton pointless. Ended the series with a +5 while the team ended while the team was +5.

Vinny against the 8th seeded Islanders. 0 points in 5 games. Ended the series with a -1 while the team ended with a +8.

Find something else to criticize. This is getting old and you have no basis for your argument

fufonzo is offline  
Old
04-24-2004, 11:08 AM
  #5
prabak11
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: montreal
Posts: 782
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to prabak11 Send a message via Yahoo to prabak11
use ure head....who would u take koivu a proven hockey player that has everything expect size or a player that shows nothing gets a couple of points and has size?

what a ******** thread!

prabak11 is offline  
Old
04-24-2004, 11:10 AM
  #6
Aarex
Registered User
 
Aarex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Regina, Saskatchewan
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,276
vCash: 500
Leadership: huge advantage to Saku
Desire and Commitment: huge advantage to Saku

Vinny has one of the worst tempers in the NHL and when he grows up he will be nothing short of a star

Aarex is offline  
Old
04-24-2004, 11:13 AM
  #7
Brisson11
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: On the rink
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,264
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to Brisson11
Ya like last night when Vinny got a unsportsman like penalty for mouthing off I'm pretty sure... Koivu owns Lecavalier by 10000000000000.083 times

Brisson11 is offline  
Old
04-24-2004, 11:23 AM
  #8
Hockeyfan02
Registered User
 
Hockeyfan02's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Pistivity
Country: United States
Posts: 14,159
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brisson11
Ya like last night when Vinny got a unsportsman like penalty for mouthing off I'm pretty sure... Koivu owns Lecavalier by 10000000000000.083 times
Vinny didnt get an unsportsman like conduct penalty for mouthing off. Not sure where your getting the info from. When Vinny brings the effort like he did on that first goal by working his ass off to keep the puck in the zone is when he is on the top of his game. In the Isles series he was trying some stupid dekes you simply cant do in the playoffs, unless the defenseman is Briesbois. When he is motivated to play he can be unstoppable. Before a Vancouver game in January he guranteed he was going to have a better 2nd half and thats when he and St. Louis really took off because Vinny was working his butt off. Vinny has far more talent than Koivu but Koivu has more leadership and more heart. I'd say they are both good centers who are just below the elite level centers like Forsberg, Modano, Sakic, Fedorov, etc.

Hockeyfan02 is offline  
Old
04-24-2004, 11:27 AM
  #9
Porn*
Registered User
 
Porn*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In your nightmares
Country: Israel
Posts: 34,697
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to Porn*
i'd have to take lecavalier in a heart beat personally... he's got temper issues but one day he'll own the league! He has all the tools... and he is physical when he wants to be.

Porn* is offline  
Old
04-24-2004, 11:29 AM
  #10
joeminus
Registered User
 
joeminus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Tampa, FL
Country: United States
Posts: 1,770
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to joeminus Send a message via Yahoo to joeminus
Quote:
Originally Posted by prabby
use ure head....who would u take koivu a proven hockey player that has everything expect size or a player that shows nothing gets a couple of points and has size?

what a ******** thread!
What a ******** post.

Lecavalier "shows nothing"? He gets "a couple of points"?

Please.

Vinny Lecavalier is far from a complete player and still has a LONG way to go to fulfill his potential, but to hear you tell it he's a complete bust.

I'm sorry, but we're talking about a kid (he just turned 24 the other day) who already has back-to-back 30-goal seasons, five consecutive 20-goal seasons, and three 60+ point seasons.

Koivu's scored 60 points or more only once. He's scored 20 goals only twice. He's never scored 30, or even 25.

If Vinny Lecavalier only gets "a couple of points," then Saku Koivu has barely scored at all.

It's true that Koivu has the edge in leadership and desire. Lecavalier's biggest problem the past couple of years has been inconsistency. But when he plays with intensity, like he did last night, you simply cannot keep him off the scoresheet. He's a force when he wants to be.

Part of that is immaturity. As Vinny gets older and more experienced, there's no question he'll become a more consitent contributor. He's gotten better every year in terms of showing up every night, game in and game out.

But even so, it's not like he's entirely devoid of desire right now. If you think so, I suggest you go back and look at the replay of Fedotenko's goal last night, when Lecavalier absolutely manhandled Ribeiro (?) along the boards to re-gain the puck after a turnover. A player with no desire doesn't even TRY to make that play, let alone succeed.

Speaking of which, anyone who thinks Lecavalier "is not physical" obviously hasn't seen him play much. While it's true that he'd prefer to play a purely finesse game (and considering his incredibly polished skill set, why wouldn't he?), he's not one to shy away from the rough stuff. At some point during this series, a Habs defenseman will make the mistake of taking Vinny for soft and feel the brunt of Lecavalier's shoulder in his chest while he muscles his way to the front of the net for a scoring chance.

BTW, I'm sure the Lightning's 1999-2000 roster, who banded together and requested that Vinny be given the captain's 'C' because of their respect for him, would be surprised to learn that Lecavalier has "never shown" leadership "in all his career."

joeminus is offline  
Old
04-24-2004, 11:32 AM
  #11
HABitude
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Laprairie, dans la belle Province
Posts: 2,561
vCash: 500
1rst round of the playoffs
___________________

Thornton was badly injured. That was half of Thornton, even Perreault would have outplayed the injured Thornton. If you take this Bos-Mtl round to prove as a fact that Koivu is better than Thornton then I have serious doubts about your hockey knowledge.

Now you are telling me that what I saw yesterday about Lecavalier was not true, what I saw was an illusion. ??? Did you see he same game as I saw btw? ... I hope you're right because I'm first and above all a true Hab fan. I hope the Hab team was sleeping like the first game against Boston.

There is something clear if we compare Tampa vs Boston. Tampa is clearly faster than Boston. Habs were clearly faster overall than Boston, except for Samsonov and Rolston. It was easy to figure out that if Montreal was skating full speed they would take advantage in their zone because Boston's D were so slow. But Tampa's D are not slow. As for forwards Tampa have 6 players skating like Samsonov. Even Marty St-Louis is faster than Samsonov. If Komi doesn't krunch Marty against the boards we are in deep trouble. Komi is a good “fast skater stopper” like Stevens in NJ.

So in term of speed = Tampa > Montreal > Boston
Desire = Tampa and Montreal > Boston
Size = Boston > Tampa > Montreal

I think Habs can't skate with Tampa in an open game like yesterday. Tampa will eat them in 4 easy with that kind of game. Montreal have to play a kind of fast trap like NJ last year against Tampa. They need the best of every players, including Ribeiro and Sunstrom. They need to shoot strong and accurate, crash to the net for returns, expect some penalties and PP goals.

HABitude is offline  
Old
04-24-2004, 11:35 AM
  #12
Brisson11
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: On the rink
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,264
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to Brisson11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockeyfan02
Vinny didnt get an unsportsman like conduct penalty for mouthing off. Not sure where your getting the info from. When Vinny brings the effort like he did on that first goal by working his ass off to keep the puck in the zone is when he is on the top of his game. In the Isles series he was trying some stupid dekes you simply cant do in the playoffs, unless the defenseman is Briesbois. When he is motivated to play he can be unstoppable. Before a Vancouver game in January he guranteed he was going to have a better 2nd half and thats when he and St. Louis really took off because Vinny was working his butt off. Vinny has far more talent than Koivu but Koivu has more leadership and more heart. I'd say they are both good centers who are just below the elite level centers like Forsberg, Modano, Sakic, Fedorov, etc.
Sorry I just can't imagine Vinny having, and I quote: "far more talent" than Koivu. He does has more potential as a young player IMO and yes, he will be better but Koivu is very good with the puck also. I agree they are both just below elite level but I disagree with you on your Koivu standpoint.

Brisson11 is offline  
Old
04-24-2004, 11:40 AM
  #13
HABitude
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Laprairie, dans la belle Province
Posts: 2,561
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Porn*
i'd have to take lecavalier in a heart beat personally... he's got temper issues but one day he'll own the league! He has all the tools... and he is physical when he wants to be.
True! Some people seems to forget how young Vinny is. He's 23. He was captain way to soon and people still say he doesn't have the temper to be a leader. Being a captain to young was a mistake, let's put this mistake of management behind. I beleive he have all the tools to be an elite center in this league. Wait when he'll be 26-30. ... or wait later in these series, maybe he's ready now, who knows?

HABitude is offline  
Old
04-24-2004, 12:06 PM
  #14
EaGLE1
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Quebec City
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,442
vCash: 500
It's only one damn game. Use your brain. Koivu had 10 pts, lecavalier 0 before this serie. Prend pas l'habitude de l'échapper de même :lol

EaGLE1 is offline  
Old
04-24-2004, 12:20 PM
  #15
Munchausen
Full Time A-hole
 
Munchausen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Stuck in traffic
Posts: 5,330
vCash: 500
Every single stinkin' time...

Man am I sick of the bandwagonning.

I think it's time to find Mike8's "top 10 reasons to trade Koivu" thread and bump it up.

What happens if Koivu outplays Lecavalier in the next game?

The only thing important for me in a Lecavalier - Koivu comparison is that Koivu makes his teammates better by holding them accountable and showing the example on the ice and being clutch in key situations. Lecavalier will never have that kind of leadership in him, not in a 100 years, it's not in his personality. Therefore, I beleive Saku Koivu makes his team better overall than Lecavalier could ever.

Munchausen is offline  
Old
04-24-2004, 12:34 PM
  #16
Mike8
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 11,426
vCash: 500
I'll make this brief:

-Lecavalier is an incredible talent. There is no comparison between Koivu and Lecavalier when it comes to pure talent.


-There is a reason why when Lecavalier is made captain and the focus on a team, his team fails.

-There is also a reason why when Koivu is made captain and the focus on a team, his team overachieves.

With that said, I'd love to have both on the same team.

Mike8 is offline  
Old
04-24-2004, 12:36 PM
  #17
Brisson11
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: On the rink
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,264
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to Brisson11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike8
With that said, I'd love to have both on the same team.
Ya no duhhhh everyone would but that's not an option here

Brisson11 is offline  
Old
04-24-2004, 12:36 PM
  #18
jcpenny
Registered User
 
jcpenny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Montréal
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,878
vCash: 500
This first game is a lot like the first game against Boston. We let TB do everything they wanted on the ice which gave the chance to vinny to go wild. Expect him to be look closely like thornton for the next games, party is over. If he comes through i'll say that he's the real deal but he was checked closely by NYI and did nothing.

jcpenny is offline  
Old
04-24-2004, 12:42 PM
  #19
HABitude
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Laprairie, dans la belle Province
Posts: 2,561
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by EaGLE1
It's only one damn game. Use your brain. Koivu had 10 pts, lecavalier 0 before this serie. Prend pas l'habitude de l'échapper de même :lol
Lecavalier attendait l'occasion d'une série contre l'équipe québecoise (Canadiens) pour montrer comment il est bon. Ça prend pas un cours classique pour comprendre qu'il dormait en nous attendant. Tortorella a bien pris soin d'aller checker ce que les médias prédisent sur cette série et est allé discuter avec Vinny et Marty pour faire sur qu'ils seront bien pompés avant cette série. Maintenant j'espère que Julien va trouver la bonne approche pour “shutter down” l'enthousiasme des Lightnings. Faut pas qu'ils prennent confiance, faut qu'ils soient dérangés pis qu'ils se mettent à réfléchir. Faut pas qu'ils patinent librement comme ça. C't'une nouvelle série, oublie les 10 points faciles de Koivu contre les Bruins avec le Thornton blessé pis le reste de leur équipe lente comme des tortues. Ils étaient gros et lourds mais lents, très lents, sauf Samsonov et Rolston.

HABitude is offline  
Old
04-24-2004, 12:52 PM
  #20
CHareth
Registered User
 
CHareth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 2,075
vCash: 500
Saku and Vinny? Other than both being centers, are they really comparable? I mean, come on ... Two very different players.

I don't question Lecavalier's size, speed, talent or strength. I thought he was simply outstanding out there in game 1. But where was he is round 1? His inconsistency is still a problem, and as talented as Prince Vince is, I consider Saku to be more reliable as a consistent player. Having said that, I agree with Mike8: having both would be wonderful.

CHareth is offline  
Old
04-24-2004, 12:55 PM
  #21
HABitude
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Laprairie, dans la belle Province
Posts: 2,561
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike8
I'll make this brief:

-Lecavalier is an incredible talent. There is no comparison between Koivu and Lecavalier when it comes to pure talent.


-There is a reason why when Lecavalier is made captain and the focus on a team, his team fails.

-There is also a reason why when Koivu is made captain and the focus on a team, his team overachieves.

With that said, I'd love to have both on the same team.
C'mon, use your brain. Vinny Lecavalier was given the C way too early in his career. Vinny came in the league at the age of 18, Koivu at 21. Giving the C to Vinny was a mistake of Lightning's management. Put that idea behind and forget it. Maybe Lecavalier doesn't have the right stuff to be a captain and will never have, so what. He's still a very fast skilled strong young center any team would like to have in their line-up.

Koivu as a captain made his teamates overacheives? Yeah this year and the 2002 season when he was an inspiration to his teamates when he was battling cancer. But his team when he was captain missed the PO 3 times and made it 2 times (1 time he was injured and this year he was playing) in his captaincy history. The Hab team changed head coach 3 times in a short period. Please don't exagerate when you talk about captaincy and making his team overacheive. There is bit of bad management with the slump of Habs last 7 years (Houle era) and a little bit of no-team work/spirit also.

HABitude is offline  
Old
04-24-2004, 01:21 PM
  #22
BruinsGirl
Registered User
 
BruinsGirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Bruinsville, MA
Country: United States
Posts: 5,159
vCash: 500
[QUOTE=HABitude]1rst round of the playoffs
___________________

Thornton was badly injured. That was half of Thornton, even Perreault would have outplayed the injured Thornton. If you take this Bos-Mtl round to prove as a fact that Koivu is better than Thornton then I have serious doubts about your hockey knowledge.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is so true...

Thornton couldn't use his main strengths: speed and physical play (ribs) and shot(jammed wrist). It's unfair to compair him and Saku in this situation.

Lecavalie vs Koivu... Hmmm. Leadership and desire is definitely on Saku's side, but they are sooo different in their age and experience.

Skills? I think they are very close but Vinny is so much bigger which helps him utilize his skills better.

BruinsGirl is offline  
Old
04-24-2004, 01:29 PM
  #23
HCH
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: The Wild West
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,955
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BruinsGirl
Thornton couldn't use his main strengths: speed and physical play (ribs) and shot(jammed wrist). It's unfair to compair him and Saku in this situation.

Lecavalie vs Koivu... Hmmm. Leadership and desire is definitely on Saku's side, but they are sooo different in their age and experience.

Skills? I think they are very close but Vinny is so much bigger which helps him utilize his skills better.
How about Lecavalier vs. Thornton? Both are young, big and strong. Thornton has shown more to date but has he peaked as a player? Will his temper keep him from achieving greatness? He makes a lot of really bad decisions in an effort to exact revenge. Lecavalier has also had his problems. Despite quarrels with his coach the guy has hung in there.

When I look at all three, each has his strengths. On the surface Koivu still seems to handle leadership the best . He has suffered through serious injuries as well as a life-threatening illness to return to the top of his game. But he is smaller.

I would take any of the three.

HCH is offline  
Old
04-24-2004, 01:31 PM
  #24
Catala
Registered User
 
Catala's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Montreal
Country: France
Posts: 769
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to Catala
Quote:
Originally Posted by Munchausen
Every single stinkin' time...

Man am I sick of the bandwagonning.

I think it's time to find Mike8's "top 10 reasons to trade Koivu" thread and bump it up.

What happens if Koivu outplays Lecavalier in the next game?

The only thing important for me in a Lecavalier - Koivu comparison is that Koivu makes his teammates better by holding them accountable and showing the example on the ice and being clutch in key situations. Lecavalier will never have that kind of leadership in him, not in a 100 years, it's not in his personality. Therefore, I beleive Saku Koivu makes his team better overall than Lecavalier could ever.
Thank you !


Maybe it's just the fan speaking, but you can't compare Lecavalier and Koivu. 2 Different types of players.
I personnaly would want both of them in my team if possible.
Koivu's intensity and leadership on the ice is priceless as Lecavalier skills and size are as well. Don't forget it's only one game and people are fast saying this guy is better than him. Who knows how Lecavalier could play under the montreal's pressure? Maybe he can, but We have to admit that if someone can deal with that pretty easily, as to be Koivu.


Last edited by Catala: 04-24-2004 at 01:45 PM.
Catala is offline  
Old
04-24-2004, 01:33 PM
  #25
Rahan
Registered User
 
Rahan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Chicoutimi
Posts: 1,760
vCash: 500
Regarde HABitude, va allumer de l'enscent sous ta figurine de Lecavalier, mais lâche-nous un peu..

Quote:
Originally Posted by HABitude
Lecavalier attendait l'occasion d'une série contre l'équipe québecoise (Canadiens) pour montrer comment il est bon. Ça prend pas un cours classique pour comprendre qu'il dormait en nous attendant.
Wow, tout un joueur de hockey, attendre une équipe en particulier pour faire de quoi. Ah, il dormait en nous attendant, c'est bon pour son équipe ça, qu'il les laisse se débrouiller. Tu dis ça comme si tu le défendais, mais de mon côté ca ajoute deux bonnes raisons pour jamais vouloir le voir avec Montréal.

Rahan is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:25 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2015 All Rights Reserved.