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Missing persons report: John Tavares

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Old
02-10-2010, 08:36 PM
  #51
NYIschremp44
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Originally Posted by DaMick View Post
Hes 19 & is a rookie.

What exactly did you expect ...150 pts?
not at all, but perhaps more battle, better skating, more time on his skates (rather than his back), less blind passes, better choices, less shanked shots, and maybe fewer forced passes/shots from impossible angles/passing lanes.

oh and maybe a bit better than 1 goal and a -7 rating in his last 17 games.

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02-10-2010, 08:43 PM
  #52
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so far John Tavares's entire career parellels with an uncanny likeness to Alexandre Daigle.

Daigle's rookie year statistics as an 18 year old the season following being drafted as a "can't miss" offensive dynamo 1st overall pick:
84 games 20 goals 31 assists 51 points

John Tavares's rookie season to a prorated "84 games"
24 goals 20 assists 44 points

That year Paul Kariya (Matt Duchene) and Chris Pronger (Victor Hedman) were drafted behind Alexandre Daigle. History repeats itself.

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02-10-2010, 08:58 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by NYIschremp44 View Post
so far John Tavares's entire career parellels with an uncanny likeness to Alexandre Daigle.

Daigle's rookie year statistics as an 18 year old the season following being drafted as a "can't miss" offensive dynamo 1st overall pick:
84 games 20 goals 31 assists 51 points

John Tavares's rookie season to a prorated "84 games"
24 goals 20 assists 44 points

That year Paul Kariya (Matt Duchene) and Chris Pronger (Victor Hedman) were drafted behind Alexandre Daigle. History repeats itself.
Would that make you happy? If Tavares becomes Daigle V2.0, that would set the Islanders back quit a bit. Perhaps im extrapolating too much from your post (and if I am I apologize), but it almost seems like you want that to happen. I assume your an Islanders' fan. I don't get it...

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02-10-2010, 08:59 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by ferrisUML View Post
Would that make you happy? If Tavares becomes Daigle V2.0, that would set the Islanders back quit a bit. Perhaps im extrapolating too much from your post (and if I am I apologize), but it almost seems like you want that to happen. I assume your an Islanders' fan. I don't get it...
Of course he does, then Schremp could take over as the #1 Center.

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02-10-2010, 09:03 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by HyeDray View Post
Wow...I love Isles fans. So many want to talk about how bad a GM Mike Milbury was, but those say fans seem to want to be like him.

Lets Trade Tavares. He sucks! Okposo...cant score, he sucks. Bailey...what a joke.
Oh enough already. I just signed up for these messageboards recently and I'm already sick at the lack of openmindedness here. Nobody wants to discuss anything. It's either "agree with me or you're stupid." I started a thread recently that got closed, asking peoples' opinions of DPs long term future with the team and got bashed by people putting words in my mouth, saying that I think he sucks, I wish injury upon him, blah blah blah. Nobody said to trade Tavares. Nobody said to trade Okposo. This is called a "discussion." This is what happens with mature adults in the real world.

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02-10-2010, 09:05 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by NYIschremp44 View Post
so far John Tavares's entire career parellels with an uncanny likeness to Alexandre Daigle.

Daigle's rookie year statistics as an 18 year old the season following being drafted as a "can't miss" offensive dynamo 1st overall pick:
84 games 20 goals 31 assists 51 points

John Tavares's rookie season to a prorated "84 games"
24 goals 20 assists 44 points

That year Paul Kariya (Matt Duchene) and Chris Pronger (Victor Hedman) were drafted behind Alexandre Daigle. History repeats itself.
Thanks Nostradamus.

Got the next set of lottery numbers for me?

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02-10-2010, 09:10 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by ferrisUML View Post
Would that make you happy? If Tavares becomes Daigle V2.0, that would set the Islanders back quit a bit. Perhaps im extrapolating too much from your post (and if I am I apologize), but it almost seems like you want that to happen. I assume your an Islanders' fan. I don't get it...
not at all, I was loving every second of watching Tavares earlier this season. It was exciting, it kepts me on the edge of my seat every night. I was at the draft party screaming my head off with excitement and enthusiasm. The most I've been able to show since Bates's penalty shot goal in 2002. However, I am a realist and my points about Tavares aren't based strictly on statistics, it's his pathetic play.

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02-10-2010, 09:10 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by cjdv16 View Post
Thanks Nostradamus.

Got the next set of lottery numbers for me?


The ignore button does wonders.

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Old
02-10-2010, 09:11 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by NYIschremp44 View Post
hmm...maybe wearing #91 as a 1st overall pick is bad luck?
Dammitt.... you're spot on again.

Just look at Stamkos.

That guy sucks.

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Old
02-10-2010, 09:15 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by cjdv16 View Post
Dammitt.... you're spot on again.

Just look at Stamkos.

That guy sucks.
What do you mean? Stamkos = total bust.

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02-10-2010, 09:17 PM
  #61
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Right now his problems are NHL defensemen have figured him out...he has no speed so he's easy to cover....and his strength is weak. I got ripped on for saying his time and space will be alot less then junior and right now he has no time and space. As Kadri stated everything is different at the NHL level...space, speed, small details, everything. Duchene and Stamkos have the ability to adjust because they have speed to get around unfortunatly John doesn't have the speed, endurance and conditioning to do that.

It's not about who's he's playing....As much as it's nice to have great players it's also on himself to make others better and take control of the situation himself.
Good man. You get it.

Frankly, he will end up with very respectable first-year kiddie numbers, so any concern about that is over-reaction. (And no one is suggesting trading him, why do some posters need to create a strawman?)

However, the player's flaws are apparent. And you nailed them, as well as the weakness of the excuses. To ignore them is denial. As is the excusemaking.

To demote JT or sit him is silly and I seriously doubt either will happen. To what end? He needs experience. He needs to understand how to overcome challenges, the things that are hard on the ice.


Last edited by Trottier: 02-10-2010 at 11:42 PM.
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Old
02-10-2010, 09:19 PM
  #62
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Hm, I'm pretty sure I saw him on the ice tonight.

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02-10-2010, 09:20 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by doakacola View Post
Oh sure, that Colorado team is just stacked full of NHL All-Stars. Other than Stastny and Hejduk, Duchene is playing with a cast of pluggers, just like Tavares. Duchene
will be a better all around player than Tavares, w/o a doubt.
Do me a favor.... do 2 things: 1. check the records of both teams 2. check the rosters side by side

Colorado is by far more talented, particularly on the offensive side. If you don't agree, well, then I don't know what to tell you.


Otherwise, move along, there's nothing to see here.....

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Old
02-10-2010, 09:21 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by ferrisUML View Post
Would that make you happy? If Tavares becomes Daigle V2.0, that would set the Islanders back quit a bit. Perhaps im extrapolating too much from your post (and if I am I apologize), but it almost seems like you want that to happen. I assume your an Islanders' fan. I don't get it...
The deal is this guy obviosly would rather see Shremp get 100 points and the Isls finish with 35 than the other way around - I have no doubt about it.

Shremp does not do it for me - sorry.

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02-10-2010, 09:32 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by cjdv16 View Post
Do me a favor.... do 2 things: 1. check the records of both teams 2. check the rosters side by side

Colorado is by far more talented, particularly on the offensive side. If you don't agree, well, then I don't know what to tell you.

Otherwise, move along, there's nothing to see here.....
Great, the Avs are more talented.

Duchene is also the better player through his and JT's first NHL season. (And certainly not based on points alone.)

Both facts...and neither point is particularly important. But to simply cite the old "he's a benefactor of superior teammates" insinuation is lame, and fraudulent, as anyone who has bothered to watch Matt Duchene knows.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IslesRock4 View Post
...Go with the concensus for once and you won't have fans calling for your head....
As if a GM should base a decision on fear of fan reaction? That would be pretty spineless. And what is this, anyway? American Idol? Drafting by popular vote?

Any GM who operated on that shallow basis wouldn't be worth a nickel, and I give Snow more credit than that.

Screw the fans choice. A GM is not paid to be popular. I'm one of those rare fans who remembers waaaaay back to 2001. A GM brought in a big name "star" because "it gives the franchise credibility." As insulting and ignorant a line as any GM ever dropped on a fanbase...and of course, much of Islander Nation bought it at the time. That worked out well.

No, a GM is paid to assemble a winning team. And that means drafting the best players, not the best celebrities, not simply the most popular player. Snow chose JT because he felt him the best player in the draft. We'll know if he was correct 5-10 years from now. If he is helping lead a winning NYI team, then it was a great pick. Otherwise, no. (Notice, no mention of how anyone else in this draft turns out.)


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Old
02-10-2010, 10:15 PM
  #66
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He's not a generational talent like Canada hyped him to be when he was 16 yrs old scoring nearly a goal per game in the O.

He's gonna be good, but more like a 70 point player(30 goals, 40 assists), unless he is surrounded with immense amounts of talent like Washington.

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02-10-2010, 10:28 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by bigtimehockeyfan View Post
He's not a generational talent like Canada hyped him to be when he was 16 yrs old scoring nearly a goal per game in the O.

He's gonna be good, but more like a 70 point player(30 goals, 40 assists), unless he is surrounded with immense amounts of talent like Washington.
This has nothing to do with the topic, but I found your post incredibly hilarious considering who you have as your avatar. It seemed like exactly the opposite of what Pierre would actually say about him.

Also, I wouldn't blame all of Canada for that. It was some of the media, who saw only his 72-goal "OMG HE BROKED GRETZKY'S RECORD" season, and immediately figured that that equals "Next One". Most people who watched him and were capable of being objective saw that there were too many flaws in his game for him to truly be "The Next One".

Tavares' main issue is he's at that stage where he hasn't yet adapted. At the beginning of the year, the other teams were seeing him for the first time. Sure, there's scouting reports. But it's different than actually playing the game. So he caught quite a few teams unaware. But as he slowly made his way around the league, and teams saw him for the second, third, and fourth time, they adapted to him. They realized where he likes to be, what he likes to do, and took that time and space away from him. Thus far, Tavares hasn't adapted his game to that time and space no longer being available to him.

A lot of that has to do with speed (or lack there of), as well as a lack of strength. Sometimes he simply can't get to where he wants/needs to be fast enough, and sometimes he's there, but can't stand his ground because he's out-muscled and pushed out of the way. So that's the two main physical things he has to work on over the summer, and in subsequent years. But he'll still need to adapt, and improvise his game. Things that worked in junior aren't working in the NHL, and so he'll have to use that hockey IQ of his to figure out what does work.

No one's writing him off (or at least I don't think anyone should be). So it's a bit melodramatic for people to toss out the sarcastic "yeah, let's trade him!" cat calls in response. But the fact remains that there are issues/flaws in his game that go well beyond the simple "he's a rookie, give him time" or "he's got no one to play with" thing. Issues/flaws that are associated with his actual game, and not to do with the situation he finds himself in.

Can he adapt, work on those issues? Probably. But that's going to determine whether the kid can go on to become that 40+ goal scorer people hope he'll be, and stagnating as a 15 to 20 something perimeter scorer.

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02-10-2010, 10:49 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Trottier View Post
Great, the Avs are more talented.

Duchene is also the better player through his and JT's first NHL season. (And certainly not based on points alone.)

Both facts...and neither point is particularly important. But to simply cite the old "he's a benefactor of superior teammates" insinuation is lame, and fraudulent, as anyone who has bothered to watch Matt Duchene knows.



As if a GM should base a decision on fear of fan reaction? That would be pretty spineless. And what is this, anyway? American Idol? Drafting by popular vote?

Any GM who operated on that shallow basis wouldn't be worth a nickel, and I give Snow more credit than that.

Screw the fans choice. A GM is not paid to be popular. I'm one of those rare fans who remembers waaaaay back to 2001. A GM brought in a big name "star" because "it gives the franchise credibility." As insulting and ignorant a line as any GM ever dropped on a fanbase...and of course, much of Islander Nation bought it at the time. That worked out well.

No, a GM is paid to assemble a winning team. And that means drafting the best players, not the best celebrities, not simply the most popular player. Snow chose JT because he felt him the best player in the draft. We'll know if he was correct 5-10 years from now. If he is helping lead a winning NYI team, then it was a great pick. Otherwise, no. (Notice, no mention of how anyone else in this draft turns out.)
As much as I would like to believe this, I don't. I really like snow and I think he has done a great job so far, but I believe that he was pushed into picking Tavares, not only by the fans but by Wang. I really believed down to the last second that he was going to pick Duchene simply because he resembles the type of player that snow seems to like.

I read an article recently, in which Wang was talking about how to build a hockey fan base. He said the key was to cater to the kids and the most important thing was to give them a hero. Duchene didn't fill that need. Tavares did.

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02-10-2010, 10:53 PM
  #69
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I remember saying that he was figured out earlier on and being absolutely flayed for it by both Islanders and Rangers fans alike. I don't like to brag, but...

Either way, this is a big step for the kid. How he adapts will tell a lot about his future. He's not a great skater at all and he simply can't read the game like he could in the CHL. The next step is a big thing for him and hopefully he can make it. I think he's going to be a good PPG player in the future so it's not a worry right now. Granted, if he continues to struggle for the rest of the year and next year, it's a bit of a worry but he'd still only be 20.

The one thing that DOES concern me is he skates like he's flat footed most of the time. His speed is not great and his acceleration is sub-par. It leads to him floating around a lot and not really contributing. A complete opposite of what we see in Duchene who is always flying around and doing all the little things.

As long as he can adjust to the NHL adjusting to him he'll be fine.

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Old
02-10-2010, 11:40 PM
  #70
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I read an article recently, in which Wang was talking about how to build a hockey fan base. He said the key was to cater to the kids and the most important thing was to give them a hero....
I'm not doubting your truthfulness, but God I hope you are joking.

If Wang is sincere, I hope this franchise continues to fails. (And it will, with that hollow mentality.)

Ignorance need not ever be rewarded.

Here's how to grow a fanbase, Chuckles: give them a winning on-ice product. Period.

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02-11-2010, 05:32 AM
  #71
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He'll improve, but all those players are minimum 6:03, not 6:00 like Tavares. The jury is out on whether or not you took the right kid.
They took the right kid. GM Snow had no other chance as picking JT. Islanders fans would have gone crazy if he had chosen Duchene or Hedman. This board would have exploded if he had taken Duchene or Hedman. And down the road Tavares will be the better player, at least the better goalscocrer

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02-11-2010, 07:46 AM
  #72
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Can he adapt, work on those issues? Probably. But that's going to determine whether the kid can go on to become that 40+ goal scorer people hope he'll be, and stagnating as a 15 to 20 something perimeter scorer.
I'm not confident he can improve speed much. I am confident that he'll work to become much stronger. If he's half the competitor he seems to be I'll be he's already come up with a plan on how to do just that.

Cheers,

Dan-o

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Old
02-11-2010, 07:56 AM
  #73
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The ignore button does wonders.
Unfortunately, I still see the posts when someone quotes said poster. I'm praying for a ban sometime soon...

Once again, just because I absolutely LOVE to repeat the obvious, Tavares is a 19 year old playing in his first year in the NHL with a compacted schedule due to the Olympics. Can we stop overreacting? Please? Just for once?


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02-11-2010, 08:11 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by NYIschremp44 View Post
so far John Tavares's entire career parellels with an uncanny likeness to Alexandre Daigle.

Daigle's rookie year statistics as an 18 year old the season following being drafted as a "can't miss" offensive dynamo 1st overall pick:
84 games 20 goals 31 assists 51 points

John Tavares's rookie season to a prorated "84 games"
24 goals 20 assists 44 points

That year Paul Kariya (Matt Duchene) and Chris Pronger (Victor Hedman) were drafted behind Alexandre Daigle. History repeats itself.
He's still playing better than the guy in your avatar. And he's only got 4 years to go to catch up to the mediocre standards of Robbie Schremp.

Oh and labeling a kid a "bust" after 60 games is about as smart as naming yourself after Robbie Schremp.

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02-11-2010, 08:28 AM
  #75
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I remember saying that he was figured out earlier on and being absolutely flayed for it by both Islanders and Rangers fans alike. I don't like to brag, but...

Either way, this is a big step for the kid. How he adapts will tell a lot about his future. He's not a great skater at all and he simply can't read the game like he could in the CHL. The next step is a big thing for him and hopefully he can make it. I think he's going to be a good PPG player in the future so it's not a worry right now. Granted, if he continues to struggle for the rest of the year and next year, it's a bit of a worry but he'd still only be 20.

The one thing that DOES concern me is he skates like he's flat footed most of the time. His speed is not great and his acceleration is sub-par. It leads to him floating around a lot and not really contributing. A complete opposite of what we see in Duchene who is always flying around and doing all the little things.

As long as he can adjust to the NHL adjusting to him he'll be fine.

I absolutely agree with you--opposing teams have figured out where he scores from--I forgot who posted it, but someone had a screenshot of like 10 of his goals, and they were all from identical places on the ice.

Either way, I'm not worried about him for a few reasons.
1. he is a rookie, and will get better/stronger (or, at least should)
2. A kid who is touted as being as smart as he is in terms of the game SHOULD be able to adapt his game to what the opposing teams do, once he's been here for a bit (I expect in his prime, he should be a good 85-90pt player).

I don't think he's had a terrible rookie year, but the problem is people have gotten spoiled by the Crosbys/Ovys/Malkins of the game. They expect every "hyped" rookie to do what they did. They won't. Few players are of their calibre, and therefore few players will ever perform like they did.

I think those chicken littles crying that we blew it, and we should've went Duchene (who is also a great talent) are being a little ridiculous--of course, these are the same types who now complain that we traded away virtually an entire all-star team. We're just a bit jaded over here, I suppose.

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