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Missing persons report: John Tavares

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Old
02-11-2010, 08:30 AM
  #76
nyscene
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Originally Posted by NYIschremp44 View Post
not at all, but perhaps more battle, better skating, more time on his skates (rather than his back), less blind passes, better choices, less shanked shots, and maybe fewer forced passes/shots from impossible angles/passing lanes.
oh and maybe a bit better than 1 goal and a -7 rating in his last 17 games.
So, basically, you wanted him to be the Anti-Schremp.

Gotcha.

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Old
02-11-2010, 08:45 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Trottier View Post
Great, the Avs are more talented.

Duchene is also the better player through his and JT's first NHL season. (And certainly not based on points alone.)

Both facts...and neither point is particularly important. But to simply cite the old "he's a benefactor of superior teammates" insinuation is lame, and fraudulent, as anyone who has bothered to watch Matt Duchene knows.
Having better players on the team and playing better hockey are not mutually exclusive. Because Duchene has players on the team and on his line that can make plays and make room for themselves and himself, he will undoubtedly play better. Since the game is about the speed, and JT sorely lacks it, he will struggle. However, the rest of JTs game (vision, work ethic, stickhandling, etc.) is at such a high level he was able to succeed early in the season. As the season grew older, and his 19 year old body which isn't stallion-esque to begin with began to show signs of fatigue, he has not put up the points and has looked weaker.

What's interesting is, JT has been one of the more noticable Islanders the last 3 games, so this thread has been given a life at the most innoportune time. Many like to see the negatives and constantly compare him to Duchene. However, his problems (skating and strength) are very fixable. I'm very excited to see JT after the Olympic break.

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02-11-2010, 09:34 AM
  #78
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Can you imagine if the NHL allowed JT to be drafted as a 17 year old like he and his family were hoping for?? The kid would not have had a chance.

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02-11-2010, 10:53 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by JPIsles21 View Post
Having better players on the team and playing better hockey are not mutually exclusive.
Never suggested as much.

However, others here have implied that JT is simply a victim of his circumstances. That's insulting the intelligence of anyone who has bothered to study the player this season.

I stated pre-draft that I believe Duchene will be the superior NHLer. I'm stating today that nothing of substance has been proven to date in that regard, as 60+ game "careers" are insubstantial. So no gloating, "I told you so here." And, per my previous post, what MD does in his career ultimately has no impact on how one should judge JT. (I reluctantly raised his name simply in response to those propagandizing on MD's success. As one who has watched MD a lot this season, he is a lot more than a product of the insufferable "Leech" meme. He is making his teammates better and optimizing their talents. It takes suprior skill to do that.)

As always, I'm focusing on JT's attributes and flaws. I hope you are correct that they are easily fixable. We shall see.

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02-11-2010, 11:07 AM
  #80
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Patiently Waiting? You REALLY need to change your name. How is this far less than any of us predicted? I predicted him to have 20 goals and 20-25 assists. That seems about right.
I predicted about 25 goals, 25 assists so we are pretty much in agreement there.

I know the saying is "it's not how, it's how much"... however in this case its more like, "it's not how much, it's how".

If JT ended the season with 25 goals, 25 assists and was consistant throughout the year, I would have been thrilled with that. I would have also been happy had he scored 10 goals in his first 50 games, then potted 15 in the last 30 showing great improvement. Actually, that last scenario would have been ideal.

He is stuck on 17 goals and 15 of them came in October/November. A 20 goal season is a HUGE disappointment when you factor in how he started the season.

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02-11-2010, 11:13 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Trottier View Post
Never suggested as much.

However, others here have implied that JT is simply a victim of his circumstances. That's insulting the intelligence of anyone who has bothered to study the player this season.

I stated pre-draft that I believe Duchene will be the superior NHLer. I'm stating today that nothing of substance has been proven to date in that regard, as 60+ game "careers" are insubstantial. So no gloating, "I told you so here." And, per my previous post, what MD does in his career ultimately has no impact on how one should judge JT. (I reluctantly raised his name simply in response to those propagandizing on MD's success. As one who has watched MD a lot this season, he is a lot more than a product of the insufferable "Leech" meme. He is making his teammates better and optimizing their talents. It takes suprior skill to do that.)

As always, I'm focusing on JT's attributes and flaws. I hope you are correct that they are easily fixable. We shall see.
I too loved Duchene coming into the draft. I likened the two to Alfredsson and Heatley. Obviously MD and JT aren't exactly like the two mentioned, but I always saw JT being more of a Healtey type, a guy who wouldn't be noticed as much, as he doesn't do much of the puck carrying, and more of the finishing. Alfredsson, on the other hand is a player that does everything and is always noticable but isn't as productive as a Heatley. Both are obviously great players, and I expect both JT and Duchene to develop as such: both contributing to winning, but in different ways.

As of right now, because of MD's NHL-quality speed, he is the better player. And yes, I strongly believe that JTs flaws can be fixed.

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02-11-2010, 11:14 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by cjdv16 View Post
Do me a favor.... do 2 things: 1. check the records of both teams 2. check the rosters side by side

Colorado is by far more talented, particularly on the offensive side. If you don't agree, well, then I don't know what to tell you.


Otherwise, move along, there's nothing to see here.....
Hey jonesy, I did that before i posted, my point still stands, outside of Hejduk & Stastny, everyone else on Colorado is in the same ballpark as the NYI. Put together a team of top 9 forwards, 6 dmen and 2 goalies (Dipietro healthy) you get

F- Stastny, Hejduk, Wolski, Duchene, Stewart, Okposo, Tavares, Bailey, Schremp

D- Streit, Hillen, Sutton, Liles, Quincey, Hannon

G- Dipietro - Anderson

So much for your much more talented meme.

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02-11-2010, 11:16 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by bigtimehockeyfan View Post
He's not a generational talent like Canada hyped him to be when he was 16 yrs old scoring nearly a goal per game in the O.

He's gonna be good, but more like a 70 point player(30 goals, 40 assists), unless he is surrounded with immense amounts of talent like Washington.
This

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Old
02-11-2010, 11:20 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Trottier View Post
Never suggested as much.

However, others here have implied that JT is simply a victim of his circumstances. That's insulting the intelligence of anyone who has bothered to study the player this season.

I stated pre-draft that I believe Duchene will be the superior NHLer. I'm stating today that nothing of substance has been proven to date in that regard, as 60+ game "careers" are insubstantial. So no gloating, "I told you so here." And, per my previous post, what MD does in his career ultimately has no impact on how one should judge JT. (I reluctantly raised his name simply in response to those propagandizing on MD's success. As one who has watched MD a lot this season, he is a lot more than a product of the insufferable "Leech" meme. He is making his teammates better and optimizing their talents. It takes suprior skill to do that.)

As always, I'm focusing on JT's attributes and flaws. I hope you are correct that they are easily fixable. We shall see.
Duchene reminds me of Parise who reminds me of Crosby - significant leaps in overall skill and output, obviously, but very similar stature and style of play. I love everything about Duchene's game and even though he's 18, you can see he's really going to be a player.

It definitely makes no sense to compare the two (JT and MD), not now, not in their development either - they are completely different players and each bring unique attributes to their teams. Each will be surrounded by different TYPES of players in order for each to be successful.

I think BOTH will be successful, in the end. They're both high-end talents and that skill level, combined with work ethic, will translate to NHL success in 2-3 years.

The continual micro-scrutiny evaluation of blind passes, flubbed scoring chances and on-ice mistakes is absurd to me. Forget Gretzky, forget Crosby, forget junior and let the teenage rookie play and figure things out.

Man, do I ever miss the 20yr old draft!

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Old
02-11-2010, 11:37 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by doakacola View Post
Hey jonesy, I did that before i posted, my point still stands, outside of Hejduk & Stastny, everyone else on Colorado is in the same ballpark as the NYI. Put together a team of top 9 forwards, 6 dmen and 2 goalies (Dipietro healthy) you get

F- Stastny, Hejduk, Wolski, Duchene, Stewart, Okposo, Tavares, Bailey, Schremp

D- Streit, Hillen, Sutton, Liles, Quincey, Hannon

G- Dipietro - Anderson

So much for your much more talented meme.
Wow. Just wow. Colorado is where the Isles hope to be, in 2-3 years, with their NCAA prospects. Just because guys like Galiardi, Jones, and Yip have been below HF radar (and mine, for sure) doesn't imply that they're not more talented than anyone the Islanders have up front not named Okposo, Tavares, or Bailey. Maybe in a few years if our long-term NCAA guys like Rakhshani, Gregoire, Ness pan out we'll be in the same place. Not till then.

And if Schremp makes the top-9 of the teams combined, that 'meme' is less fit than a sleep-deprived small business owner with a 7-mo old, and that's saying something.

So much for smugness.

Cheers,

Dan-o

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Old
02-11-2010, 11:52 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Dan-o16 View Post
Wow. Just wow. Colorado is where the Isles hope to be, in 2-3 years, with their NCAA prospects. Just because guys like Galiardi, Jones, and Yip have been below HF radar (and mine, for sure) doesn't imply that they're not more talented than anyone the Islanders have up front not named Okposo, Tavares, or Bailey. Maybe in a few years if our long-term NCAA guys like Rakhshani, Gregoire, Ness pan out we'll be in the same place. Not till then.

And if Schremp makes the top-9 of the teams combined, that 'meme' is less fit than a sleep-deprived small business owner with a 7-mo old, and that's saying something.

So much for smugness.

Cheers,

Dan-o
You'll be singing a different tune on Shremp by the end of the year. Book it Dan-o

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Old
02-11-2010, 11:58 AM
  #87
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Silver lining: perhaps this frustrating stretch (and JT sure looks frustrated) will be the best thing that could happen to JT. He obviously cares and supposedly has a great work ethic. He knows by now what he needs to do, so hopefully over the summer he works on his strength, conditioning and skating. It's not his lack of top-end speed that's hurting him - it's the first couple of steps. He needs some serious power training to improve his acceleration.

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02-11-2010, 12:20 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by doublechili View Post
Silver lining: perhaps this frustrating stretch (and JT sure looks frustrated) will be the best thing that could happen to JT. He obviously cares and supposedly has a great work ethic. He knows by now what he needs to do, so hopefully over the summer he works on his strength, conditioning and skating. It's not his lack of top-end speed that's hurting him - it's the first couple of steps. He needs some serious power training to improve his acceleration.
Agreed. Acceleration is more important than overall speed. If he can improve his acceleration he still won't have blazing speed but he'll be quicker to his top speed and it won't look like hes standing still.

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Old
02-11-2010, 12:27 PM
  #89
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Agreed. Acceleration is more important than overall speed. If he can improve his acceleration he still won't have blazing speed but he'll be quicker to his top speed and it won't look like hes standing still.
And the good news is that those first frew steps - the accelerative boost - is the part of skating that can really be worked on and enhanced.

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Old
02-11-2010, 12:37 PM
  #90
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He's still getting his chances. Goal scorers don't just forget how to score. It's a very streaky thing, especially for a younger player. I wouldn't be surprised if he rips off a 8 goal in 10 game stretch or something like that soon. He's been close, and I do think a lot of it right now it between his ears. He looked like someone ran over his dog yesterday when MAF stopped him on the one-timer in close. He's hit a number of posts recently. I think he just needs one to relax him, and then he'll get going.

To his credit, he doesn't look out of place on the ice and isn't overmatched. I actually like the fact that he slashed Letang yesterday. Sure he took a penalty, but he's letting the frustration out a little. And if you're going to let it out, you may as well do it on an opposing player. Hell, I can see him getting a fighting major soon, which may be a good thing too.

He has obvious flaws. He needs to improve his skating and get stronger. He'll never be a blazer like Stamkos or Crosby. But with better balance, he'll be able to stay on his feet more in the offensive zone.

At the end of the day, he's a 19 year old kid being asked to carry a huge offensive burden for 1 of the worst offensive clubs in the league. He's hit a wall. He'll snap out of it and people will soon forget about this stretch.

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02-11-2010, 01:01 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Trottier View Post
I'm not doubting your truthfulness, but God I hope you are joking.

If Wang is sincere, I hope this franchise continues to fails. (And it will, with that hollow mentality.)

Ignorance need not ever be rewarded.

Here's how to grow a fanbase, Chuckles: give them a winning on-ice product. Period.
Just to clarify my statement, Wang wasn't addressing the Tavares pick, when he made those comments, but just the fact that this is his overall mentality makes me believe that he had a lot to do with that pick. We all know how wang loves the kids, and all the kids wanted Tavares, end of story

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Old
02-11-2010, 01:20 PM
  #92
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Having better players on the team and playing better hockey are not mutually exclusive. Because Duchene has players on the team and on his line that can make plays and make room for themselves and himself, he will undoubtedly play better.
I think this line of reasoning is unfair to Duchene -- and arguably to guys like Okposo, Bailey, and Moulson, as well -- because it implies that Duchene's played the entire season with Stastny, Wolski, and Hejduk, when that isn't the case. In fact, other than the odd PP, I doubt Stastny and Duchene touch the ice at the same time.

Duchene's linemates for a large percentage of games have been a combination of guys like Yip, Galiardi, Durno, Tucker, Svatos, and for short periods only, Hejduk, Wolski, and Stewart. Thus, Duchene's success really isn't about who he's played with, but rather how he's played.

Alternatively, suggesting Tavares doesn't have as much talent to play with does an injustice to the efforts of Okposo, Bailey, and at the beginning of the year, Moulson. In fact, Moulson has more goals than ANYONE on Colorado, and Okposo's got as many points as every linemate Duchene's had, minus his recent stint with Wolski. So while the teams' overall depth is different, the actual respective linemates that both Tavares and Duchene have had to play with isn't this great chasm that people seem to suggest it is, and in fact, one could argue that Tavares' overall linemate talent (the guys he actually plays with) are better than what Duchene has played with.

Quote:
Since the game is about the speed, and JT sorely lacks it, he will struggle. However, the rest of JTs game (vision, work ethic, stickhandling, etc.) is at such a high level he was able to succeed early in the season. As the season grew older, and his 19 year old body which isn't stallion-esque to begin with began to show signs of fatigue, he has not put up the points and has looked weaker.
To repeat myself, it's less about fatigue as it is about a lack of adaptation at this point.

Teams having figured Tavares out, and now the kid is struggling to adapt to find new ways to score. That's not to say he won't -- if he's got the hockey sense everyone raves that he does, he will -- but right now, the biggest problem in his game is that he has yet to adapt to other teams taking away the time and space he had at the beginning of the year.

Fatigue plays a part, sure, as does his poor skating, strength, and lack of a hard shot. But adaptation is the biggest thing. I mean -- and no, I'm not making a direct comparison -- look at Wayne Gretzky. His out of this world hockey sense allowed him to constantly adapt, and thus teams were never able to shut him down. He was never strong, always was a goofy looking skater, and his slap shot was average at best. But he constantly used his hockey mind to adapt to situations, and it allowed him to overcome his physical limitations. IMO, Tavares hasn't been able to do this yet.

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02-11-2010, 01:37 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Sidney the Kidney View Post
I think this line of reasoning is unfair to Duchene -- and arguably to guys like Okposo, Bailey, and Moulson, as well -- because it implies that Duchene's played the entire season with Stastny, Wolski, and Hejduk, when that isn't the case. In fact, other than the odd PP, I doubt Stastny and Duchene touch the ice at the same time.

Duchene's linemates for a large percentage of games have been a combination of guys like Yip, Galiardi, Durno, Tucker, Svatos, and for short periods only, Hejduk, Wolski, and Stewart. Thus, Duchene's success really isn't about who he's played with, but rather how he's played.

Alternatively, suggesting Tavares doesn't have as much talent to play with does an injustice to the efforts of Okposo, Bailey, and at the beginning of the year, Moulson. In fact, Moulson has more goals than ANYONE on Colorado, and Okposo's got as many points as every linemate Duchene's had, minus his recent stint with Wolski. So while the teams' overall depth is different, the actual respective linemates that both Tavares and Duchene have had to play with isn't this great chasm that people seem to suggest it is, and in fact, one could argue that Tavares' overall linemate talent (the guys he actually plays with) are better than what Duchene has played with.



To repeat myself, it's less about fatigue as it is about a lack of adaptation at this point.

Teams having figured Tavares out, and now the kid is struggling to adapt to find new ways to score. That's not to say he won't -- if he's got the hockey sense everyone raves that he does, he will -- but right now, the biggest problem in his game is that he has yet to adapt to other teams taking away the time and space he had at the beginning of the year.

Fatigue plays a part, sure, as does his poor skating, strength, and lack of a hard shot. But adaptation is the biggest thing. I mean -- and no, I'm not making a direct comparison -- look at Wayne Gretzky. His out of this world hockey sense allowed him to constantly adapt, and thus teams were never able to shut him down. He was never strong, always was a goofy looking skater, and his slap shot was average at best. But he constantly used his hockey mind to adapt to situations, and it allowed him to overcome his physical limitations. IMO, Tavares hasn't been able to do this yet.
Can't disagree with much what was said, except that having a deeper team certainly helps any player out regardless of whether or not they are on the same line as the other guys. There is no question Duchene is the better player this year, and I'm not saying that it has entirely to do with the rest of his team. It does however, play a role in his production, especially on the PP. As far as the comparison of their games, Duchene wins hands down.

Whether it be fatigue, lack of core strength, lack of skating ability, I think JT's issues are all physical, but not in terms of skill. He's got the skill and technical ability to be a dominant contributor. He just doesn't have the physical maturity to do this yet, and lacking speed has made his lack of strength and balance an even bigger problem this year. Strength improvement is inevitable, and skating will come if he is as hardworking and determined as everyone says he is. Adding strength will make him a solid top 6 forward. Adding both speed/acceleration and strength are imperative for him to become an elite scorer everybody projected him to be.

For a guy who is playing 'poorly', he could have easily had a goal a game, and some assists the last 3 games. The inability of his linemates to finish, and him hitting the post a few times has his line looking much worse than how he's played in the last few games.

Careers aren't determined in rookie years.

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Old
02-11-2010, 02:00 PM
  #94
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Having watched a few games from both NYI and Colorado this year, the difference is Colorado has more overall depth. Yes Tavares has acceptable wingers. However Duchene is the #2 center on a team with three excellent centers. Duchene is also playing behind a near PPG #1 center. Defensive coverage is way more spread out against the Avs and Duchene usually has more time and space against inferior defensive pairings than Tavares. Since Tavares has no offensive support beyond his linemates, opposing defenses best players can key in on him all night.

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02-11-2010, 02:05 PM
  #95
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StheK, I know you weren't comparing JT to Gretzky, but to continue the analogy, while Gretzky wasn't a beautiful skater, his acceleration and agility were sufficient that he could physically accomplish on the ice what his brain wanted to accomplish. I can see with JT that he wants to do things and his body just isn't capable of doing it. Or, more specifically, his brain wants to do things that his body used to be able to accomplish in juniors, but he's losing the races and battles now against superior competition. I think if he gains strength and (thereby?) improves his first couple of steps and agility, he'll be very good.

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02-11-2010, 02:51 PM
  #96
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This has nothing to do with the topic, but I found your post incredibly hilarious considering who you have as your avatar. It seemed like exactly the opposite of what Pierre would actually say about him.

Also, I wouldn't blame all of Canada for that. It was some of the media, who saw only his 72-goal "OMG HE BROKED GRETZKY'S RECORD" season, and immediately figured that that equals "Next One". Most people who watched him and were capable of being objective saw that there were too many flaws in his game for him to truly be "The Next One".

Tavares' main issue is he's at that stage where he hasn't yet adapted. At the beginning of the year, the other teams were seeing him for the first time. Sure, there's scouting reports. But it's different than actually playing the game. So he caught quite a few teams unaware. But as he slowly made his way around the league, and teams saw him for the second, third, and fourth time, they adapted to him. They realized where he likes to be, what he likes to do, and took that time and space away from him. Thus far, Tavares hasn't adapted his game to that time and space no longer being available to him.

A lot of that has to do with speed (or lack there of), as well as a lack of strength. Sometimes he simply can't get to where he wants/needs to be fast enough, and sometimes he's there, but can't stand his ground because he's out-muscled and pushed out of the way. So that's the two main physical things he has to work on over the summer, and in subsequent years. But he'll still need to adapt, and improvise his game. Things that worked in junior aren't working in the NHL, and so he'll have to use that hockey IQ of his to figure out what does work.

No one's writing him off (or at least I don't think anyone should be). So it's a bit melodramatic for people to toss out the sarcastic "yeah, let's trade him!" cat calls in response. But the fact remains that there are issues/flaws in his game that go well beyond the simple "he's a rookie, give him time" or "he's got no one to play with" thing. Issues/flaws that are associated with his actual game, and not to do with the situation he finds himself in.

Can he adapt, work on those issues? Probably. But that's going to determine whether the kid can go on to become that 40+ goal scorer people hope he'll be, and stagnating as a 15 to 20 something perimeter scorer.
Good post.

Tavares reminds me of Joe Thornton believe it or not. Great vision when their backs are against the play, good goal scoring hands (but scared to use them) and love to work from the corners. Only difference is Joe has always been a monster on the puck and on his skates, which really makes all the difference in being able to fetch and distribute in the way he does..and like Tavares wants to.

Like you said, he has a lot to work on. Let's hope he gets their soon than later.

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02-11-2010, 03:37 PM
  #97
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Anyone remeber stamko's rookie year??? not soo good now look.

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02-11-2010, 03:42 PM
  #98
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I have to say, between this thread and the recent thread about Rick that got locked, my killfile just continues to grow.

I'm really not worried about Tavares, but I guess that people need someone to blame things on.

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02-11-2010, 03:59 PM
  #99
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Anyone remeber stamko's rookie year??? not soo good now look.
Didn't you just start a thread about how Tavares should be sent down to the AHL?


Last edited by malPHONEY: 02-11-2010 at 04:49 PM.
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02-11-2010, 04:40 PM
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Twine Seeking Missle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malPHONEY View Post
Didn't you just start a thread about how Tavares should be sent down to the NHL?
I wasn't aware a player could be sent down to the NHL. Is there an NHL superleague somewhere where robot clones of Ovechkin, Iginla, Kovalchuk and Crosby compete for world domination?

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