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Missing persons report: John Tavares

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Old
02-11-2010, 04:48 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Twine Seeking Missle View Post
I wasn't aware a player could be sent down to the NHL. Is there an NHL superleague somewhere where robot clones of Ovechkin, Iginla, Kovalchuk and Crosby compete for world domination?
You got me there. I meant the NHL in the 5th Dimension.

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02-11-2010, 07:05 PM
  #102
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what MD does in his career ultimately has no impact on how one should judge JT.
Gospel, but the comparisons will be there for a long time.

There is no question JT's game is (in many respects) not NHL strong right now which is why most children his age don't sniff the NHL. Had he been drafted 20th, he would be learning, strengthening, fine tuning his game in the minors.

Suggesting in any way that a 19 year old child is a bust 60 games into a premature NHL career is absolute madness.

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02-11-2010, 08:51 PM
  #103
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I thought Stamkos sucked because Melrose was killing him on the 4th line? After Melrose was canned, I'm pretty sure Stamkos tore it up.

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02-11-2010, 09:14 PM
  #104
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I thought Stamkos sucked because Melrose was killing him on the 4th line? After Melrose was canned, I'm pretty sure Stamkos tore it up.
Oh please. Every player ages differently. Tavares doesn't need to follow the exact same career path as Stamkos or Kane to be a great player. The "Tavares is a bust" crew doesn't know how ridiculous they sound.

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02-11-2010, 09:32 PM
  #105
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Oh please. Every player ages differently. Tavares doesn't need to follow the exact same career path as Stamkos or Kane to be a great player. The "Tavares is a bust" crew doesn't know how ridiculous they sound.

I don't know why our "not ready for this league NOW" argument is automatically equated to career bust? All I'm saying (and I'm pretty sure the majority of the others who see Tavares as nothing more than a negative on the roster at this point) is that JT needs to rebuild his confidence and get stronger, older and smarter in the AHL.

The first 2 months of the season showed that he certainly has the skills and natural ability to be an impact NHL player. The last 2+ months have shown that his time is not now, and if the situation is not remedied soon---this season might be a major set back to his development and might cause damage beyond repair.

I understand AHL wasn't an option, and OHL would be pointless...but something has to be done.

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02-11-2010, 09:36 PM
  #106
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I don't know why our "not ready for this league NOW" argument is automatically equated to career bust? All I'm saying (and I'm pretty sure the majority of the others who see Tavares as nothing more than a negative on the roster at this point) is that JT needs to rebuild his confidence and get stronger, older and smarter in the AHL.

The first 2 months of the season showed that he certainly has the skills and natural ability to be an impact NHL player. The last 2+ months have shown that his time is not now, and if the situation is not remedied soon---this season might be a major set back to his development and might cause damage beyond repair.

I understand AHL wasn't an option, and OHL would be pointless...but something has to be done.
The proof of the damage being done to JT the last 2 months can be seen through his body language and his facial expressions every time he misses a golden chance. As many have pointed out, he most likely doesn't know what it's like to struggle---so get him in a situation where he can pick his head up again and get the train back on the tracks.

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02-11-2010, 09:44 PM
  #107
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Anyone else think the shootout goal will get him back on track?

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02-11-2010, 09:47 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by NYIschremp44 View Post
JT needs to rebuild his confidence and get stronger, older and smarter in the AHL.
A player doesn't "get stronger, older, and smarter" in the minor leagues. You get stronger and smarter by battling through slumps at the NHL level. Going to the AHL will do about as much good as going to the OHL would do.

Tavares has been there, done that, referring to dominating lower levels of hockey. Get him back to thinking that his old junior moves are going to work, and you've put him in the same exact situation that he's currently struggling through. NHL defensemen have figured him out. He needs to adjust to a higher level of play, and sending him to a lower level - no matter how much of a drop off the AHL is - is the wrong move and will make no progress.

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02-11-2010, 10:01 PM
  #109
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Anyone else think the shootout goal will get him back on track?
He was never "on track". He was hanging around the net and got a bunch of garbage goals. Teams soon then figured out where Tavares' office was and immediately canceled that area of the ice out when he was on.

Tavares has a lot of talent. He only needs now to get in NHL shape, then he can go back to his office because then he can control the area instead of players controlling where Tavares goes and does.

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Old
02-11-2010, 10:03 PM
  #110
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A player doesn't "get stronger, older, and smarter" in the minor leagues. You get stronger and smarter by battling through slumps at the NHL level. Going to the AHL will do about as much good as going to the OHL would do.

Tavares has been there, done that, referring to dominating lower levels of hockey. Get him back to thinking that his old junior moves are going to work, and you've put him in the same exact situation that he's currently struggling through. NHL defensemen have figured him out. He needs to adjust to a higher level of play, and sending him to a lower level - no matter how much of a drop off the AHL is - is the wrong move and will make no progress.
wow you have completely written off and discredited the AHL as a development league for the NHL?!?! How do you think Martin St. Louis, Ryan Kesler, Duncan Keith, Dan Boyle and Brad Boyes would feel about that?
Ryan Getzlaf and Corey Perry benefited from 15+ games in the AHL as 20 years old but it would serve no purpose to an 18 year old John Tavares?

Players don't get stronger and smarter in the AHL? First of all---time, weight lifting, and eating is what will make JT stronger---Meanwhile he can be putting the puck in the net at a professional level, rather than carrying his beaten ego and useless play around the NHL.

I think the best example of how AHL time has helped a young offensive prospect is in the case of Eric Staal. Although the lockout is actually what forced Staal to play a season in the AHL after scoring just 11 goals and 31 points in a disappointing rookie NHL season, he returned to the NHL after completing a full AHL season with an astounding sophomore NHL season of 45 goals and 100 points.

But time in the AHL is useless for John Tavares, he's far too good for that.

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Old
02-11-2010, 10:39 PM
  #111
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I don't really see how the AHL would help him physically. He still gets a ton of ice time at the NHL level, he just needs to spend his time wisely during the Olympic break wisely.

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02-11-2010, 10:48 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by bigtimehockeyfan View Post
He was never "on track". He was hanging around the net and got a bunch of garbage goals. Teams soon then figured out where Tavares' office was and immediately canceled that area of the ice out when he was on.

Tavares has a lot of talent. He only needs now to get in NHL shape, then he can go back to his office because then he can control the area instead of players controlling where Tavares goes and does.
Have you watched the Isles this year?

He was very good the first 20/30 games.

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Old
02-11-2010, 11:07 PM
  #113
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He would have had a goal last night, but Fleury straight up robbed him.

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Old
02-12-2010, 08:07 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Tavares2TheRescue View Post
Anyone else think the shootout goal will get him back on track?
It certainly couldn't hurt.

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Old
02-12-2010, 09:09 AM
  #115
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I thought Stamkos sucked because Melrose was killing him on the 4th line? After Melrose was canned, I'm pretty sure Stamkos tore it up.
Nice to see someone else mention this.

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02-12-2010, 09:48 AM
  #116
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Nice to see someone else mention this.
Was it that immediate, or would Stamkos's game have improved as the season went on anyway?


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Old
02-12-2010, 09:55 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by JL17 View Post
Nice to see someone else mention this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigtimehockeyfan View Post
I thought Stamkos sucked because Melrose was killing him on the 4th line? After Melrose was canned, I'm pretty sure Stamkos tore it up.
it's no comparison at all to tavares and there's little or zero correlation IMO.

stamkos wasn't a good player in the first half of the season, he didn't deserve to play, regardless of who the coach was. stamkos simply got better, fast. His adjustment to the NHL was extremely fast, specifically with HOW TO USE his skills in the NHL. He learned quickly what worked and didn't work and his adjustment was almost instant - and hasn't looked back.

i've seen a lot of tbay games and stamkos is the best player on that team IMO. better than st. louis and lecavalier over the past 80 games. he's a game breaker but also makes linemates better PLUS he seems to be improving every game.

it's NO WAY a connection to Tavares except that they were 1st overall picks - that's it.

If you (or anyone) feels better about Tavares because Stamkos broke out of his 30 game slump then it's severely misguided. Just like Daigle's first season is no comparison/correlation either.

Tavares has his own challenges and limitations and it's in NO WAY a foregone conclusion he'll overcome them and be great next season.

Personally, I think Tavares will be a great NHL player with time but I don't think it's a guarantee based on any other player in any other situations. I base this solely on his past success, his hockey sense, his work ethic and based on the way he has played thus far, both the good and the bad.

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02-12-2010, 11:42 AM
  #118
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it's no comparison at all to tavares and there's little or zero correlation IMO.

stamkos wasn't a good player in the first half of the season, he didn't deserve to play, regardless of who the coach was. stamkos simply got better, fast. His adjustment to the NHL was extremely fast, specifically with HOW TO USE his skills in the NHL. He learned quickly what worked and didn't work and his adjustment was almost instant - and hasn't looked back.

i've seen a lot of tbay games and stamkos is the best player on that team IMO. better than st. louis and lecavalier over the past 80 games. he's a game breaker but also makes linemates better PLUS he seems to be improving every game.

it's NO WAY a connection to Tavares except that they were 1st overall picks - that's it.

If you (or anyone) feels better about Tavares because Stamkos broke out of his 30 game slump then it's severely misguided. Just like Daigle's first season is no comparison/correlation either.

Tavares has his own challenges and limitations and it's in NO WAY a foregone conclusion he'll overcome them and be great next season.

Personally, I think Tavares will be a great NHL player with time but I don't think it's a guarantee based on any other player in any other situations. I base this solely on his past success, his hockey sense, his work ethic and based on the way he has played thus far, both the good and the bad.
This is probably the best and most well written, and thought out comment on this thread.

There is no doubting he has the talent, we all saw what he can do, yes he got some garbage goals, but that goal against Boston was a goal scorer's goal. The pucks hitting the posts, or going wide, will start to go in. But I worry about his psyche, if we think about his slump while watching the game, or in a thread that is 5 pages, imagine what he is thinking or feeling, he's thinking about it 24/7. I didn't see the shootout goal, but hopefully it helps, especially since it won the game.

I think the Olympic break will help him. I also think he will get through this, and will become a very good to great player. He has too much heart, desire, hockey smarts, and talent to wind up a bust. I think most busts are missing one of these qualities, he has all four.

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02-12-2010, 12:35 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by redbull View Post
it's no comparison at all to tavares and there's little or zero correlation IMO.

stamkos wasn't a good player in the first half of the season, he didn't deserve to play, regardless of who the coach was. stamkos simply got better, fast. His adjustment to the NHL was extremely fast, specifically with HOW TO USE his skills in the NHL. He learned quickly what worked and didn't work and his adjustment was almost instant - and hasn't looked back.

i've seen a lot of tbay games and stamkos is the best player on that team IMO. better than st. louis and lecavalier over the past 80 games. he's a game breaker but also makes linemates better PLUS he seems to be improving every game.

it's NO WAY a connection to Tavares except that they were 1st overall picks - that's it.

If you (or anyone) feels better about Tavares because Stamkos broke out of his 30 game slump then it's severely misguided. Just like Daigle's first season is no comparison/correlation either.

Tavares has his own challenges and limitations and it's in NO WAY a foregone conclusion he'll overcome them and be great next season.

Personally, I think Tavares will be a great NHL player with time but I don't think it's a guarantee based on any other player in any other situations. I base this solely on his past success, his hockey sense, his work ethic and based on the way he has played thus far, both the good and the bad.
The coach comes out and says your not NHL ready...that's a bit of a hit. 4th line with scrappers...great development. The two game he played in Europe he hit a couple of posts. The kid was getting 5-7 mins a night. Tough to show your stuff. John hasn't had any of that happen to him. He's getting the time, the PP mins to succeed. Stamkos didn't until Tocchet took over.

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02-12-2010, 12:50 PM
  #120
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The coach comes out and says your not NHL ready...that's a bit of a hit. 4th line with scrappers...great development. The two game he played in Europe he hit a couple of posts. The kid was getting 5-7 mins a night. Tough to show your stuff. John hasn't had any of that happen to him. He's getting the time, the PP mins to succeed. Stamkos didn't until Tocchet took over.
Tavares also doesn't have St Louis AND Lecavalier feeding him pucks either. These are two world class players in the NHL. I love Okposo, and Moulson is a fantastic surprise, but they aint in St Louis or Lecavalier's league. Not taking anything away from Stamkos, he's an obvious talent, and obviously a better player than Tavares at this point, but supporting cast means something.

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02-12-2010, 01:13 PM
  #121
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Tavares also doesn't have St Louis AND Lecavalier feeding him pucks either. These are two world class players in the NHL. I love Okposo, and Moulson is a fantastic surprise, but they aint in St Louis or Lecavalier's league. Not taking anything away from Stamkos, he's an obvious talent, and obviously a better player than Tavares at this point, but supporting cast means something.
IMO, that seems to be a bit of a crutch, though. Yes, having a good supporting cast will help improve numbers. But star players should still be able to shine even with minimal help. And star players lift their game to do their part. If Stamkos was struggling, instead of hearing how much St. Louis is helping him, you'd hear about how much Stamkos' play is dragging St. Louis down with him, or how Stamkos is wasting all the glorious passes he's being fed to him.

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02-12-2010, 01:17 PM
  #122
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The coach comes out and says your not NHL ready...that's a bit of a hit. 4th line with scrappers...great development. The two game he played in Europe he hit a couple of posts. The kid was getting 5-7 mins a night. Tough to show your stuff. John hasn't had any of that happen to him. He's getting the time, the PP mins to succeed. Stamkos didn't until Tocchet took over.
In my opinion, Tavares has played far better in his last 25 games than Stamkos did in his FIRST 25 games. Far better.

Stamkos looked completely lost in his first 20-25 games. Not just out-muscled. He wasn't skating well, had horrible puck decisions, was easily knocked off the puck, never had time to make a play. He scored a hat-trick midway through the year and suddenly he seemed to have a burst of confidence. He seemed to figure things out.

Drastic difference in play when you compare this year to last year.

Although Tavares is completely different as a player and faces some different challenges, the NHL adjustment aspect is one to not be underestimated.

Quote:
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IMO, that seems to be a bit of a crutch, though. Yes, having a good supporting cast will help improve numbers. But star players should still be able to shine even with minimal help. And star players lift their game to do their part. If Stamkos was struggling, instead of hearing how much St. Louis is helping him, you'd hear about how much Stamkos' play is dragging St. Louis down with him, or how Stamkos is wasting all the glorious passes he's being fed to him.
totally agree. Excellent point.

Let's not forget the difference between good stats and a good hockey player. You can have great numbers if you play on a great team/line/offensive situations (cheechoo, ironically was one of those) and you can be a great performer in many ways and not have stellar numbers (Okposo, close to home, Ryan Smyth, Parise (underrated IMO) and many others)

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02-12-2010, 01:27 PM
  #123
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IMO, that seems to be a bit of a crutch, though. Yes, having a good supporting cast will help improve numbers. But star players should still be able to shine even with minimal help. And star players lift their game to do their part. If Stamkos was struggling, instead of hearing how much St. Louis is helping him, you'd hear about how much Stamkos' play is dragging St. Louis down with him, or how Stamkos is wasting all the glorious passes he's being fed to him.
Tavares is not the sort of player right now that can't (edited to fix) do it on his own, we'll agree on that.

But to say that a young player who plays with extremely talented players who, btw, have won a cup, is a 'crutch' that merely helps 'improve numbers' ranks up there with - and I'll put this nicely - the least considered things I've read on hf.

Cheers,

Dan-o


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02-12-2010, 01:31 PM
  #124
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Tavares is not the sort of player right now that can do it on his own, we'll agree on that.

But to say that a young player who plays with extremely talented players who, btw, have won a cup, is a 'crutch' that merely helps 'improve numbers' ranks up there with - and I'll put this nicely - the least considered things I've read on hf.

Cheers,

Dan-o
That wasn't my point at all. redbull got my meaning.

It's less about the Stamkos aspect, and more about the "Tavares has no one to play with" aspect as the reason for his struggles, as an individual.

I'm simply saying that great players find a way to still play great, despite who they're playing with.

The "crutch" comment was more toward how it can become a constant excuse for why a player struggles (in this case Tavares) simply by pinning blame on his lack of talented linemates/teammates, rather than looking at the player's individual performance. Eventually (and I'm talking down the road, not necessarily in his rookie year), Tavares will need to be judged on *his* individual performance, regardless of whether Snow and Co. get him top notch talent to play with, or saddle him with second rate wingers.

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02-12-2010, 01:33 PM
  #125
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He's a rookie. Relax. He'll be awesome soon enough.

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