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Esposito's 76 goals in 70-71

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Old
01-16-2014, 03:41 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by LeBlondeDemon10 View Post

As for Espo and his International reputation, many Ukrainian Canadians hated the Russians for the Stalin generated famine. Even my grandfather, who fled the Polish/Austrian region called Galacia at the time for Canada in 1907, did so because the Russians were going to conscript him. So this Canadian attitude towards the Soviets and other European communist countries has a history. I realize Espo was Italian-Canadian, but that attitude may have been part of his upbringing.
Galicia was part of Austria in 1907, not Russia. My great-grandfather was from there and fought in the Austrian army in WWI.

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01-16-2014, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
If you ask the question, be prepared for the answer!

BTW, Detroit actually gave up the most goals in Boston's division (second most in NHL).

The more important question may be "how many goals/points would Esposito have scored if he didn't play with Bobby Orr?"
Pretty much this, we have ample evidence of the type of player Phil was before and after Orr.

Phil was in a perfect storm and had a career year in 71 (well actually his entire time in Boston).

Would probably still have been a very good to great player without Orr but it's really hard to tell.

Phil is, without a doubt, one guy whose entire case rests on his raw stats, a closer look at his actual impact on the game makes him less than his stats.

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01-16-2014, 03:51 PM
  #28
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Galicia was part of Austria in 1907, not Russia. My great-grandfather was from there and fought in the Austrian army in WWI.
That's what I said. But the Russians were exerting their power over the Polish/Galacian region.

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01-16-2014, 03:57 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Pretty much this, we have ample evidence of the type of player Phil was before and after Orr.

Phil was in a perfect storm and had a career year in 71 (well actually his entire time in Boston).

Would probably still have been a very good to great player without Orr but it's really hard to tell.
Ya, see, Hv here we go again with this meme. Theres one way & one way only to prove your theory that Orr was a major contributor to Espositos glittering statistics & I do believe the information is available to prove or disprove your theory..... How many of Espositos Goals are attributed in first or secondary Assists to Orr?

And yes I do agree with you that Phil did have the Luck of the Irish despite being of Italian heritage, both in terms of career (though I do think he shouldve gone out a Bruin) & with supporting casts throughout his career. None the less, he was a hard working & ultra talented sniper who really paid a price for parking himself out in the slot like that, and for being a better than average defensive asset when required despite his somewhat jagged & rather lumbering skating abilities.

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01-16-2014, 04:05 PM
  #30
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Ya, see, Hv here we go again with this meme. Theres one way & one way only to prove your theory that Orr was a major contributor to Espositos glittering statistics & I do believe the information is available to prove or disprove your theory..... How many of Espositos Goals are attributed in first or secondary Assists to Orr?

And yes I do agree with you that Phil did have the Luck of the Irish despite being of Italian heritage, both in terms of career (though I do think he shouldve gone out a Bruin) & with supporting casts throughout his career. None the less, he was a hard working & ultra talented sniper who really paid a price for parking himself out in the slot like that, and for being a better than average defensive asset when required despite his somewhat jagged & rather lumbering skating abilities.
Look we have the stats of Phil when he played with the Black hawks, largely with a guy named bobby hull, and afterwards when Jean outscored Phil but quite a bit when the 2 guys switched teams and Jean being 2 years older as well.

Phil quite simply is over rated when one just looks at the raw stats.

Phil quite simply wasn't that good, as his stats with Orr would suggest, but Orr was.

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01-16-2014, 04:21 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Phil quite simply wasn't that good, as his stats with Orr would suggest, but Orr was.
Hv? Until you can prove statistically that Bobby Orr contributed substantially to Phil Espositos goal count with Assists your theory amongst those of us who were alive, adults at the time & who paid attention will continue to be dismissed. You'll have to prove this theory of yours and good luck with that. Now, I can understand how you (and others) might make that mistake. But to obtusely cling to such a meme after repeatedly & politely being informed that no, not really the case then you know what?... it behooves you to retire to your laboratory & do some more research. Prove it. Find the Assist stats for each & every goal that Phil Esposito scored as a Bruin and how many of those list Orr as Assisting. Pretty straightforward no?

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01-16-2014, 04:27 PM
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Look we have the stats of Phil when he played with the Black hawks, largely with a guy named bobby hull, and afterwards when Jean outscored Phil but quite a bit when the 2 guys switched teams and Jean being 2 years older as well.

Phil quite simply is over rated when one just looks at the raw stats.

Phil quite simply wasn't that good, as his stats with Orr would suggest, but Orr was.
I think the answer is more in the middle.
I think Espo is overrated on an over-all level but is underrated as far as just how lethal he was close in, around the net.
He was a big guy with a phenomenal set of quick hands in close. He could tip just about any shot, bat pucks out of the air without blinking and shovel rebounds past goalies before they even knew what was going on.

Phil still needed other players to get the puck on net for him to work his magic though. He was a Finisher plain and simple and one of the best ever at that.

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01-16-2014, 04:32 PM
  #33
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Hv? Until you can prove statistically that Bobby Orr contributed substantially to Phil Espositos goal count with Assists your theory amongst those of us who were alive, adults at the time & who paid attention will continue to be dismissed. You'll have to prove this theory of yours and good luck with that. Now, I can understand how you (and others) might make that mistake. But to obtusely cling to such a meme after repeatedly & politely being informed that no, not really the case then you know what?... it behooves you to retire to your laboratory & do some more research. Prove it. Find the Assist stats for each & every goal that Phil Esposito scored as a Bruin and how many of those list Orr as Assisting. Pretty straightforward no?
I would love to take the time but work and limited internet access don't permit it but heck just look at Phil's plus/minus or R-On R-off numbers and it's pretty clear who was driving that bus in Boston.

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01-16-2014, 04:40 PM
  #34
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Phil still needed other players to get the puck on net for him to work his magic though. He was a Finisher plain and simple and one of the best ever at that.
Ya, sure enough, whereas in Chicago he was employed essentially as a playmaker & digger, his job was to feed Hull the puck. He understood that quite clearly, but as he'd yet to prove himself in the NHL he did as he was told and even then Billy Reay didnt have a whole lot of confidence in him. I mean, what was Esposito supposed to do? Go to Reay and say "look at these hands Coach? These are the hands of an artist. Im the star here. You get Bobby to feed ME the puck or put me on another line with some subservient Meat Sticks who understand their role".

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01-16-2014, 04:57 PM
  #35
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Ya, sure enough, whereas in Chicago he was employed essentially as a playmaker & digger, his job was to feed Hull the puck. He understood that quite clearly, but as he'd yet to prove himself in the NHL he did as he was told and even then Billy Reay didnt have a whole lot of confidence in him. I mean, what was Esposito supposed to do? Go to Reay and say "look at these hands Coach? These are the hands of an artist. Im the star here. You get Bobby to feed ME the puck or put me on another line with some subservient Meat Sticks who understand their role".
Well it would be surprising if Phil didn't at least mention that to someone isn't it?

All time greats shouldn't have the large black holes and question marks that Phil's resume does have IMO.

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01-16-2014, 10:35 PM
  #36
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I think a lot of people know I've been a big Esposito supporter in my time here. There was a long, long thread about this once not too long ago. I repeated many of my same points simply because I was hoping eventually it would get into the heads of people. To some it didn't. But there are some very obvious signs that the Bruins relied very heavily on Esposito for success. Orr of course, and let's face it, Orr is #1, but to think Esposito was anything else but the best forward in the game and perfectly capable of dominating the NHL, is silly.

- First off, there was a chart that showed Esposito's numbers in the games Orr was injured during their time together. For the ones with big sample years (1973) Esposito was similar.

- There is the 1972 Summit Series. To this day the best hockey anyone has played internationally aside from Gretzky in 1987. There was leadership, a true taking by the bull horns approach, there was clutch goal scoring and there was 13 points in 8 games, which led the tournament. No Orr. No Hull. You would think this silences the critics, but it doesn't.

- The Bruins won the Cup in 1970 and 1972. We can thank Orr, but we can also thank Esposito whose 27 and 24 points respectively were a great second banana to those championships. However, in 1973 Esposito is hurt in the playoffs right away. Everyone on that Bruins team just collapses. Even Orr. They bow out in 5 games in a measly effort against the Rangers. It seems their star center after all is pretty important.

- The 1969 season. Orr has 64 points to Esposito's 126. Orr hadn't hit superman status yet, but Esposito easily wins the Art Ross.

- 1968 season. Esposito finishes 2nd in points with 84. Orr misses half the season. Like with most powerforwards it took him a while to establish himself as a star. For whatever reason bigger players have a harder time adjusting to the NHL (Bertuzzi, Leclair, Thornton) before they start exploding.

- 1973 season. He had 130 points. Clarke was second with 104. Orr had 101. Orr missed 15 games. Put it this way, a "leech" doesn't outscore the guy he is leeching off of by 30 points.

- Hart trophy history. He won it in 1969. No contest there. He won it in 1974 as well. You could say Orr or Parent could have won it, but for a guy with a very dull style of play that wasn't sexy or flashy at all, he sure got a lot of votes from the writers for the Hart. In 1971 he wins the first Pearson award. The players voted him ahead of Orr. His Hart voting is constantly near or at the top during this era.


Lastly, Jean Ratelle did have a good year with the Bruins in 1976. He had 105 points. However, he never had the impact of Esposito on that team and despite playing with a wealth of HHOFers on the Rangers never had a season anywhere close to Esposito while he was a Bruin (maybe 1972, that's it). Esposito joined the Bruins just as he was starting to become a star (look at 1967) and left in 1975 just as his stock was starting to drop a bit (1974-'75 season he was starting to decline). He was also 33 at the time of the trade, unable to carry a team on his back like he used to (despite a Cup run in 1979). Maybe the first cracks were in the 1974 Cup final when Esposito and Orr didn't do the things that they did in their first two Cup wins, and that was take over the series and be the difference against a great team.

Let's also look at the success stories of players from the age of 33 onwards. Even Gretzky himself didn't have a wealth of success after 1994 until 1999. Still good of course, but like Gretzky Esposito had played a lot of hockey at this time. A lot. He was still very good in the 1976 Canada Cup but was 34 at the time. Having 80 point seasons in your late 30s isn't what I would call "finished" either.

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01-17-2014, 12:54 AM
  #37
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Uhm, we had a three year old thread Necro bumped by someone with a good question or two. Yet no one has attempted to answer it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyAwe View Post
How many goals did Espo score at Boston Garden versus on the road during his career in Boston? Or, if not available, how many of the 76 did he score at the Garden during that one year?

I am trying to determine how much the shorter Boston ice surface aided his game, if at all?

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01-19-2014, 10:23 AM
  #38
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It appears I made a mistake in my original count, and Espo had 24 goals and 23 assists for 47 points in the 24 games vs Buf, CGS, LA and Van. That is ahead of his goal pace by 2 goals over 78 games, 1.25 assists behind his season pace, and 0.75 points ahead. So basically on pace.

Interestingly, Orr was 17-37-54 in those 24 games. That's on pace for 55.25 goals, 120.25 assists and 175.5 points. That's well ahead of his 37-102-139 pace.

Orr's scoring rate over the other 54 games would equal 28.9 goals, 93.9 assists and 122.8 points over 78 games.

Here is Boston's record vs each team, with Esposito's and Orr's point totals, and the number of times Esposito assisted on an Orr goal, Orr assisted on an Esposito goal, and the times they both assisted on a goal.

OppGPWLTGFGAEGEAEPOGOAOPEA OGOA EGBA
Buf H32101712437235010
Buf R32011911123246000
Chi H3201127145213101
Chi R3030710404022010
CGS H3210156112246000
CGS R3300182336549100
Det H3300208628145010
Det R32101610246033011
LA H3300221255102810031
LA R321019126410167012
Min H3201168235033011
Min R3300206538189031
Mon H3300175538178032
Mon R3210129325123020
NYR H3210159279347301
NYR R301267123112000
Phi H3300158224145001
Phi R3300113224123000
Pit H3300189639134010
Pit R3111109303246010
StL H3210103235336110
StL R3201179055033000
Tor H3300176347246001
Tor R3210157336077022
Van H33002010336224001
Van R32101511123167101
Home3933422141034243852250725119
Road39241051851063433671552672117
Total785714739920976761523710213972216

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01-19-2014, 12:10 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyAwe View Post
How many goals did Espo score at Boston Garden versus on the road during his career in Boston? Or, if not available, how many of the 76 did he score at the Garden during that one year?

I am trying to determine how much the shorter Boston ice surface aided his game, if at all?
From 1970-71 to 1974-75, according to the Hockey Summary Project data taken from newspaper box scores:

Player Home G Home A1 Home A2 Home P Road G Road A1 Road A2 Road P Goal Ratio A1 Ratio A2 Ratio Point Ratio
Esposito 174 126 84 384 152 91 59 302 1.14 1.38 1.42 1.27
Orr 112 122 115 349 69 103 89 261 1.62 1.18 1.29 1.34
Hodge 97 80 59 236 72 59 41 172 1.35 1.36 1.44 1.37
Cashman 60 63 57 180 54 51 36 141 1.11 1.24 1.58 1.28
Bucyk 104 88 62 254 79 71 41 191 1.32 1.24 1.51 1.33
Marcotte 58 35 28 121 42 25 18 85 1.38 1.40 1.56 1.42
Sheppard 39 38 25 102 31 26 14 71 1.26 1.46 1.79 1.44
Sanderson 33 34 15 82 34 25 15 74 0.97 1.36 1.00 1.11
Stanfield 31 50 46 127 36 40 30 106 0.86 1.25 1.53 1.20

Specifically in Esposito's 1970-71 season:

Player Home G Home A1 Home A2 Home P Road G Road A1 Road A2 Road P Goal Ratio A1 Ratio A2 Ratio Point Ratio
Esposito 42 25 18 85 34 18 15 67 1.24 1.39 1.20 1.27

It doesn't look like Esposito had an unusual home/road scoring split.

Bobby Orr was the player who looks to have had the most advantage scoring goals at home, if anyone.

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01-19-2014, 01:31 PM
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Funny thing with Esposito is that when there are ones that are trying to dismiss or downgrade what he did and try and to make it sound like the people who watched him are looking at him with rose coloured glasses, all of the sudden the stats seem to come in favour of Esposito every time, even when someone is hoping it doesn't.

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01-20-2014, 05:54 AM
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Well it would be surprising if Phil didn't at least mention that to someone isn't it?

All time greats shouldn't have the large black holes and question marks that Phil's resume does have IMO.
So the same arguments apply to Fedorov's career in general and the 'perfect storm' of 1994 (Yzerman injured allowing unfettered ice-time, a ton of high skill players injured allowin him to finish way above his head in the scoring race) as well, right?

I can expect to see you making those arguments in the near-future, correct?

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01-20-2014, 09:57 AM
  #42
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So the same arguments apply to Fedorov's career in general and the 'perfect storm' of 1994 (Yzerman injured allowing unfettered ice-time, a ton of high skill players injured allowin him to finish way above his head in the scoring race) as well, right?

I can expect to see you making those arguments in the near-future, correct?

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01-20-2014, 02:33 PM
  #43
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Funny thing with Esposito is that when there are ones that are trying to dismiss or downgrade what he did and try and to make it sound like the people who watched him are looking at him with rose coloured glasses, all of the sudden the stats seem to come in favour of Esposito every time, even when someone is hoping it doesn't.
Ya, I agree. I think he has been unjustly underrated by all hockey analysts in the past numerous years. I've made the case in a couple of threads that he was both underrated and overrated. The overrated slant often comes from the eye test. He wasn't fast, he wasn't shifty, he wasn't graceful and he didn't bring you out of your seat. But he played along side a guy who had all of those attributes; maybe the best combination of them in history, Orr. Quite a contrast in styles and ascetics. Fact is, his stats speak volumes. And his International play is among the best of any Canadian. I think he deserves a higher ranking for his accomplishments. I would place him right up there with Lafleur and Messier.

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01-20-2014, 03:40 PM
  #44
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So the same arguments apply to Fedorov's career in general and the 'perfect storm' of 1994 (Yzerman injured allowing unfettered ice-time, a ton of high skill players injured allowin him to finish way above his head in the scoring race) as well, right?

I can expect to see you making those arguments in the near-future, correct?
Actually no because your comment about Feds simply doesn't apply here.

He proved to be an excellent player before and after 94 and later as well when he went to Anaheim at age 34.

No doubt that if his role allowed him to take 337 SOG every year he would get his due respect but Bowman didn't use him that way and the raw stats make for a weak and somewhat lazy comparisson IMO.

for what it's worth I would take a peak feds over Phil 8 days a week in any era of the NHL heck even if Scotty was the coach.

One can only wonder how Phil would have suffered under Scotty eh?

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01-20-2014, 03:54 PM
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Ya, I agree. I think he has been unjustly underrated by all hockey analysts in the past numerous years. I've made the case in a couple of threads that he was both underrated and overrated. The overrated slant often comes from the eye test. He wasn't fast, he wasn't shifty, he wasn't graceful and he didn't bring you out of your seat. But he played along side a guy who had all of those attributes; maybe the best combination of them in history, Orr. Quite a contrast in styles and ascetics. Fact is, his stats speak volumes. And his International play is among the best of any Canadian. I think he deserves a higher ranking for his accomplishments. I would place him right up there with Lafleur and Messier.
Interesting take and of course we will agree to disagee on some it of, namely the bolded part.

Sure he had a great 72 series but some context is needed there as well, the Russians quite simply weren't built very well to handle him and had only played in full body checking conditions for a couple of years as well.

Many other Canadians have had better international accomplishments IMO.

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01-20-2014, 04:59 PM
  #46
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Interesting take and of course we will agree to disagee on some it of, namely the bolded part.

Sure he had a great 72 series but some context is needed there as well, the Russians quite simply weren't built very well to handle him and had only played in full body checking conditions for a couple of years as well.

Many other Canadians have had better international accomplishments IMO.
I'm not sure how this is a knock on him.

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01-20-2014, 05:09 PM
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I'm not sure how this is a knock on him.
It's not a knock it's some perspective.

Quiet simply most of that Soviet team played their entire careers in a non hitting type of environment and didn't game plan very well for Phil.

It was actually considered a shock that the Soviets could even hang with the Canadian team at the time as well.

To call Phil one of the best players ever internationally for Canada is the problem here.

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01-20-2014, 06:15 PM
  #48
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It's not a knock it's some perspective.

Quiet simply most of that Soviet team played their entire careers in a non hitting type of environment and didn't game plan very well for Phil.

It was actually considered a shock that the Soviets could even hang with the Canadian team at the time as well.

To call Phil one of the best players ever internationally for Canada is the problem here.
I'm also considering the 76 CC where he also played very well. He outplayed a lot of the stars on that team. By 1976, the Soviets had had plenty of time to make adjustments to their game.

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01-20-2014, 07:37 PM
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Interesting take and of course we will agree to disagee on some it of, namely the bolded part.

Sure he had a great 72 series but some context is needed there as well, the Russians quite simply weren't built very well to handle him and had only played in full body checking conditions for a couple of years as well.

Many other Canadians have had better international accomplishments IMO.
Name one player other than Gretzky in 1987 who had a better international tournament at the top level for Canada. Because I can't.

Say what you want about "the Russians weren't built to stop him" in 1972. Well, neither was anyone else in the NHL. He already had 66 and 76 goal seasons not to mention the NHL record 152 points in a season. Guys like Serge Savard couldn't stop him either, you know.

In 1972 he had 13 points in 8 games, had 3 points in the final period and provided clutch play that I think all others will be measured by. This was 4 games in Moscow. Canada needed to win them all. They did. Canada needed to score three goals in the third period of Game 8. They did. These were not great conditions to be in. A hostile environment, your NHLPA leader nearly being dragged by Russians guards out into the parking lot. None of that mattered. Canada does not win without Esposito, at all.

If you can name someone who played better in a tournament, go for it.

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01-20-2014, 07:38 PM
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I'm also considering the 76 CC where he also played very well. He outplayed a lot of the stars on that team. By 1976, the Soviets had had plenty of time to make adjustments to their game.
Yes, he still played well. 7 points in total. By now Esposito was 34 and slowing down and yet he still sort of stood out among the forwards. I would suggest the forward pecking order would go: Perreault, Hull, Sittler and Esposito if I had to pick it.

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