Beezer was the better goalie, hands down. Richter was better at his little side show acrobatics, often due to recovering from poor positioning. Richter never did anything comparable individually to Beezer's '86 Rangers and '96 Panthers playoff performances. (55 saves in game 4 loss was incredible).
Vanbiesbrouck is also the only Ranger to win the current Vezina (until Henrik nabs one sooner or later).
My vote goes, by a far margin, to the Beezer.
Mike Richter was and always will be a better goalie then Vanbiesbrouck. VBK was a good goalie and he had a couple of nice playoff runs 10 years apart. I'll always hold that '86 team a special place in my heart but come on, Richter was the superior goalie.
And they faced each other once in the playoffs in '97 and we all know how that went.
Richter all the way. Beezer was a good reflex goalie who ran hot and cold. Richter had better technique and it stood him in good stead. With the exception of a playoff loss, my productive but low-octane Bruins always did well against Beezer too. Makes me think he had some weaknesses that he could not cover or some tells in his style.
I'll take the Beezer. At the time I always felt he was just a bit better than Richter. There was an obvious invitation to compare them, so it was definitely a comparison you made. There wasn't a whole lot between them but Beezer edged it in my mind.
Credential-wise it kinda holds, too. Beezer was a post-season All-Star twice, Richter never. Richter, five times top 10 in save %, Beezer seven times. Richter five times top 10 in shutouts, Beezer eight times etc.
I think Beezer is hurt reputation-wise by those unfortunate comments he made and also Richter is helped by the Cup he won and that WCoH performance.
I wonder what Trevor Daley thinks of Michael Richards...errrr...John VanbiesbroucKKK.
One of the most overrated things to have happen. I know everyone thinks athletes should be accomodated and pampered and such but is my mother the only one who ever said "sticks and stones can break your bones...........?" Beezer off the ice is almost universally excepted as a good person. He had a slip of the tongue and Daley does a lowbrow thing and walks out on the team. Another thing that should have just been kept in the dressing room, between the team and an apology and handshake would have done it. Then again the media wastes an eternity reading Wayne Simmonds lips during an on-ice heated discussion so what do I know?
One of the most overrated things to have happen. I know everyone thinks athletes should be accomodated and pampered and such but is my mother the only one who ever said "sticks and stones can break your bones...........?" Beezer off the ice is almost universally excepted as a good person. He had a slip of the tongue and Daley does a lowbrow thing and walks out on the team. Another thing that should have just been kept in the dressing room, between the team and an apology and handshake would have done it. Then again the media wastes an eternity reading Wayne Simmonds lips during an on-ice heated discussion so what do I know?
You have got to be kidding me. Don't brush off the N word as "sticks and stones". It's not a "slip of the tongue" if he admittedly used the word "several times". And there was nothing "low brow" about Daley's actions. When Bobby Orr instructs you to go home, you go home.
but, this really has a 0% bearing on the topic of which goalie is better.
You have got to be kidding me. Don't brush off the N word as "sticks and stones". It's not a "slip of the tongue" if he admittedly used the word "several times". And there was nothing "low brow" about Daley's actions. When Bobby Orr instructs you to go home, you go home.
but, this really has a 0% bearing on the topic of which goalie is better.
I'm pretty sure you've either played hockey or are fully aware of the language that goes on in the dressing room or especially on the ice versus your opponents. Words are said and there aren't really any limits. They aren't nice words, they aren't nice insinuations either. However, you would have to suspend every player in the NHL if you wanted to start being the language police. You can start with Bruce Boudreau from that HBO special.
I'll say this though. Brantt Myhres came back to the NHL after a rehab stint. In a game versus the Devils he was told by one of the players to "go have another drink". He mentioned in an interview (an old Hockey news article) that the Devils player should have known better considering Ken Daneyko went through the same thing he did. Your telling me that's better than what Beezer said? It isn't, none of them are good.
However, you leave in on the ice. Or in the dressing room. Beezer apologized and was sincere. In my mind its over right then. But in our society there is now such a movement towards bearing your entire soul and emotions over everything. I could blame Facebook, but this was 2003, so I'll blame Oprah on this one. Unfortunately it spills into our sports too.
But in our society there is now such a movement towards bearing your entire soul and emotions over everything. I could blame Facebook, but this was 2003, so I'll blame Oprah on this one. Unfortunately it spills into our sports too.
Blame Oprah? For what? It sounds like you have a bone to pick with R v. Keegstra.
I'm pretty sure you've either played hockey or are fully aware of the language that goes on in the dressing room or especially on the ice versus your opponents. Words are said and there aren't really any limits. They aren't nice words, they aren't nice insinuations either. However, you would have to suspend every player in the NHL if you wanted to start being the language police. You can start with Bruce Boudreau from that HBO special.
I'll say this though. Brantt Myhres came back to the NHL after a rehab stint. In a game versus the Devils he was told by one of the players to "go have another drink". He mentioned in an interview (an old Hockey news article) that the Devils player should have known better considering Ken Daneyko went through the same thing he did. Your telling me that's better than what Beezer said? It isn't, none of them are good.
However, you leave in on the ice. Or in the dressing room. Beezer apologized and was sincere. In my mind its over right then. But in our society there is now such a movement towards bearing your entire soul and emotions over everything. I could blame Facebook, but this was 2003, so I'll blame Oprah on this one. Unfortunately it spills into our sports too.
all I see when I read this, is trying to roll the N word in with a bunch of F bombs. Sorry, that's not how this works.
Yes I play hockey and just about anything goes, but I can tell you that if anyone used a racial slur in Regina ASHL, they'd be pounded into submission. You just don't go there.
all I see when I read this, is trying to roll the N word in with a bunch of F bombs. Sorry, that's not how this works.
Yes I play hockey and just about anything goes, but I can tell you that if anyone used a racial slur in Regina ASHL, they'd be pounded into submission. You just don't go there.
Exactly. If I was on the ice and someone dropped a slur like that on Iginla, my captain, I'd deal with it - on the ice. That's how you do it.
No, the n-word is more offensive than the f-word, but the point in the above post is that there are many examples of non-suspendable verbal shots that are at least as bad as the n-word. Brantt Myhres? Even spill over to women's hockey in the 1998 Olympics. Danielle Goyette had her father pass away just before the Olympics. In a round robin game vs. the USA at the end of a tension fuelled game an American player said "take that game to your father's grave" or along those lines. You can see Goyette slam her stick on the ice and skate off the ice in disgust. That is probably the worst thing you could ever say to someone and that American has a gold medal around her a week later.
If you deal with it on the ice (personally if I am Goyette there would have been a cross check to the throat on that one) then it is dealt with and not in the hands of lawyers (the NHL). The world is a better place when players police things themselves and leave the media and the league out of it.
It is a very similar argument to players policing themselves on the ice with fighting.
So what should Daley have done? Assault the coach/part-owner? Would that have been less "lowbrow?"
How about sit down with the man himself, accept his sincere apology behind closed doors and move on? Beezer was quoted as saying that the n-word was "an old wound with him" meaning maybe it slipped into his vocabulary out of habit. You should know when a person means every inch of the word they say. Doesn't sound to me like Beezer meant it at all. You just don't walk out on your team for that, during the playoffs. No one thought it was okay for Shayne Corson to do it.
How about sit down with the man himself, accept his sincere apology behind closed doors and move on? Beezer was quoted as saying that the n-word was "an old wound with him" meaning maybe it slipped into his vocabulary out of habit. You should know when a person means every inch of the word they say. Doesn't sound to me like Beezer meant it at all. You just don't walk out on your team for that, during the playoffs. No one thought it was okay for Shayne Corson to do it.
I don't think you're taking into account a lot of factors here in the slightest. First, Daley at the time was 17,18 years old. This slur wasn't said to his face, it was said behind his back, to some of his other teammates. Now, imagine yourself at that age, finding out that not only does your coach use racial slurs to describe you, he doesn't have the courage to do it to your face.
Further to that, given that his agent (some nobody named Bobby Orr, who I'm sure knows nothing about hockey, or leadership, or locker room dynamics) specifically advised him to leave the team, if you're a teenage boy, chances are, you're going to listen to your agent.
Now, really, just the crap about mystical codes, please. It's really depressing to read.
To the larger point about whether or not I would pick Beezer or Richter, I can honestly say it's pretty close. I'm personally inclined to take Richter, merely on the basis that he was always given the nod over Beezer on Team USA et al. That said, when Beezer was playing his "A" game, he was spectacular.
How about sit down with the man himself, accept his sincere apology behind closed doors and move on? Beezer was quoted as saying that the n-word was "an old wound with him" meaning maybe it slipped into his vocabulary out of habit. You should know when a person means every inch of the word they say. Doesn't sound to me like Beezer meant it at all. You just don't walk out on your team for that, during the playoffs. No one thought it was okay for Shayne Corson to do it.
So we should excuse racial slurs if they slip out of habit? I cant help but to wonder if you would feel the same way if Vanbiesbrouck was russian and made a racial slur against canadians or whites.
Nah, I don't think comments about Canadians strike much of a sensitive place. A lot of people would take offense to anti-Canadian comments from Americans, but not if they subscribe to the "punch them in the face and forget about it" line of thinking like Phil. The negative history surrounding the N-word is the key aspect of the story, and it has always been treated differently.
Now, whether this gives the N-word inordinate power and perpetuates the subjugation of African Americans is a whole different can of social linguistic worms, but that's the reason we're talking about this.
So we should excuse racial slurs if they slip out of habit? I cant help but to wonder if you would feel the same way if Vanbiesbrouck was russian and made a racial slur against canadians or whites.
But should the guy have been thrown out of the OHL for having a slip of the tongue? Was that really fair? Definitely not. This isn't a debate about whether or not it is an offensive word, but rather how long you hold it against a person, and to what extent.
No, I wouldn't want to expel a Russian if he made anti-Canadian comments. Its happened. There is sensitive, and then over sensitive.
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Originally Posted by Varro
I don't think you're taking into account a lot of factors here in the slightest. First, Daley at the time was 17,18 years old. This slur wasn't said to his face, it was said behind his back, to some of his other teammates. Now, imagine yourself at that age, finding out that not only does your coach use racial slurs to describe you, he doesn't have the courage to do it to your face.
Further to that, given that his agent (some nobody named Bobby Orr, who I'm sure knows nothing about hockey, or leadership, or locker room dynamics) specifically advised him to leave the team, if you're a teenage boy, chances are, you're going to listen to your agent.
If your agent told you to jump off a cliff.............Daley was soon to be 20 years old. And the other thing too, it wasn't said directly to him, it was second hand information through his teammates, Mike Amodeo being one of them. It was in a fit of anger. Beezer was "advised strongly" to sell his share of the Greyhounds and he was basically thrown out of the OHL............for a word. Think about that. And if you think it was just then I'd love to hear some of the language people here use out of anger while they are stuck in traffic. Hope you don't lose your job over it.
if it were my decision, i would have been willing to throw vanbiesbrouck under the bus too. to sacrifice whatever coaching career he could have had is a worthwhile price to pay to send the message that using that word in a coach/player context (and the power relations that go along with that, especially because some of these kids are as young as 16) is absolutely unacceptable and will not be tolerated under any circumstances.
is it fair that one guy's career was destroyed to set an example for everyone else? well, no i don't think so. on this point (and this point alone), i agree with big phil. was it necessary? i think it was.
But should the guy have been thrown out of the OHL for having a slip of the tongue? Was that really fair? Definitely not. This isn't a debate about whether or not it is an offensive word, but rather how long you hold it against a person, and to what extent.
No, I wouldn't want to expel a Russian if he made anti-Canadian comments. Its happened. There is sensitive, and then over sensitive.
If your agent told you to jump off a cliff.............Daley was soon to be 20 years old. And the other thing too, it wasn't said directly to him, it was second hand information through his teammates, Mike Amodeo being one of them. It was in a fit of anger. Beezer was "advised strongly" to sell his share of the Greyhounds and he was basically thrown out of the OHL............for a word. Think about that. And if you think it was just then I'd love to hear some of the language people here use out of anger while they are stuck in traffic. Hope you don't lose your job over it.
You realize plenty of people have lost jobs for the words they used right? There's freedom of speech, not from consequences. For the life of me I cannot figure out why you keep bringing up meaningless examples like what if it happened on the ice between peers or if an adult swore out of frustration in a fit of road rage while sitting in traffic.
You deciding is this a particularly relevant example of where a word is just a word seems pretty misguided at best. The worst of all being this has nothing to do with the the relevant topic, but you truly believe this crap
You realize plenty of people have lost jobs for the words they used right? There's freedom of speech, not from consequences. For the life of me I cannot figure out why you keep bringing up meaningless examples like what if it happened on the ice between peers or if an adult swore out of frustration in a fit of road rage while sitting in traffic.
You deciding is this a particularly relevant example of where a word is just a word seems pretty misguided at best. The worst of all being this has nothing to do with the the relevant topic, but you truly believe this crap
It is hard to believe, but there was a time when things were dealt with on the ice, behind closed doors, between men, and not discussed with the media. There is a reason Mickey Mantle was never "outed" for the amount of women he slept with on a consistent basis despite being married. Now, are those things wrong? Of course. But we did live in a world once (and sports were included) when every Tom, Dick and Harry didn't bare their souls on Youtube or Facebook and let the world know ALL of their problems.
In my opinion, I didn't think the Greyhounds handled the situation very well, or the OHL. It reminds me of a time in the WHL when a player of native descent (I think the player's name was Dodginghorse, don't quote me) had a slur used against him. All parties agreed it was better to not label the player who made that slur but to suspend him for a game. To me, this is the right thing to do. Do you like that version better or the version where the media is reading Wayne Simmonds lips? Or Chris Gratton who in the late 1990s told Peter Worrell to "play the game" during a scrum and the media thought by reading lips he said "f-cking ape". Personally, I prefer the former rather than the latter.
But should the guy have been thrown out of the OHL for having a slip of the tongue? Was that really fair? Definitely not. This isn't a debate about whether or not it is an offensive word, but rather how long you hold it against a person, and to what extent.
No, I wouldn't want to expel a Russian if he made anti-Canadian comments. Its happened. There is sensitive, and then over sensitive.
If your agent told you to jump off a cliff.............Daley was soon to be 20 years old. And the other thing too, it wasn't said directly to him, it was second hand information through his teammates, Mike Amodeo being one of them. It was in a fit of anger. Beezer was "advised strongly" to sell his share of the Greyhounds and he was basically thrown out of the OHL............for a word. Think about that. And if you think it was just then I'd love to hear some of the language people here use out of anger while they are stuck in traffic. Hope you don't lose your job over it.
tbh with you.. I dont use racial slurs against other people. If he should have been kicked out permanently, probably not it was warranted a suspension. But u need to be smarter in a situation like that. I doubt even Cherry would be able to keep his job if he yelled out the N-word during an angry moment and this is a guy who couldnt even mention that Zeidel reacted the way he did during games because he himself got anti-semitic slurs thrown at him.
tbh with you.. I dont use racial slurs against other people. If he should have been kicked out permanently, probably not it was warranted a suspension. But u need to be smarter in a situation like that. I doubt even Cherry would be able to keep his job if he yelled out the N-word during an angry moment and this is a guy who couldnt even mention that Zeidel reacted the way he did during games because he himself got anti-semitic slurs thrown at him.
No, Cherry would lose his job. Heck, they've been trying to fire him for 30 years which is why I always chuckle at the "movements" to get him fired. I always ask myself "What is this, 1991?"
But it is a little different situation. Cherry would be using an offensive slur in front of.......what.......5 million people live and then anyone else who has Youtube. The media tried to cook up a story and play the race card with his constant critique of Subban. Players as far as Mike Richards have criticized him and the truth is there are people who don't like Subban's style of game and 0% of has to do with his skin colour.
But Beezer said it behind closed doors. Not in front of millions. He was wrong, and as a coach should have known better but isn't a simpler solution for Orr and Beezer to discuss the matter privately in a closed room and actually figure out the context of the language? If Beezer is a Klansman he probably shouldn't be running a team, but if he had a fit of anger and used a word engrained in our society (unfortunately) he shouldn't be forgiven at that moment? Todd Bertuzzi had his supporters the second he broke Moore's neck. He had his detractors too, but still had his supporters. Beezer is immediately thrown out of the OHL and is subject to character assasination. In what universe is that fair?
It is hard to believe, but there was a time when things were dealt with on the ice, behind closed doors, between men, and not discussed with the media.
I know 17 and 18 year olds like to be called men, but we're dealing with a junior coach asssigned to manage teenagers. Nothing about handling things "the right way" between men. Beezer was tasked with coaching children and called one a racial slur. There's nothing manly or that needs to be left behind closed doors. You can appeal to the media if you want, but take them out of it, at the least Daley had to appeal to another responsible adult (as the one tasked with managing him was obviously faltering). That closed doors stuff sounds nice, but it's totally bunk when you're talking about junior aged players and an adult's treatment towards them.
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There is a reason Mickey Mantle was never "outed" for the amount of women he slept with on a consistent basis despite being married. Now, are those things wrong? Of course. But we did live in a world once (and sports were included) when every Tom, Dick and Harry didn't bare their souls on Youtube or Facebook and let the world know ALL of their problems.
You obviously read the post you quoted, right? We're not talking about Beezer sleeping around or your feelings towards a younger generation's frivolousness.
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In my opinion, I didn't think the Greyhounds handled the situation very well, or the OHL. It reminds me of a time in the WHL when a player of native descent (I think the player's name was Dodginghorse, don't quote me) had a slur used against him. All parties agreed it was better to not label the player who made that slur but to suspend him for a game. To me, this is the right thing to do.
I don't mean to be a broken record, but the bold says it all. You're doing it again.
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Do you like that version better or the version where the media is reading Wayne Simmonds lips? Or Chris Gratton who in the late 1990s told Peter Worrell to "play the game" during a scrum and the media thought by reading lips he said "f-cking ape". Personally, I prefer the former rather than the latter.
At this point I'm fairly sure you didn't read my post despite responding to it. You didn't catch my point by appealing with these examples. What do on-ice incidents have to do with Beezer's? Absolutely nothing.
So your defense of the guy is "hey it was just a word" which leads to he shouldn't lose his job. And you justify this by citing incidents involving peers that all occurred on the ice and in "the heat of the moment." Do you honestly not understand how hollow your reasoning is?
I cant help but to wonder if you would feel the same way if Vanbiesbrouck was russian and made a racial slur against canadians or whites.
